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5 reasons why we should offer Souray around

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Old
12-12-2006, 04:41 PM
  #26
loadie
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Off topic, but when we got Souray I expected him to be a physical stay at home type d-man like Rick Green or Craig Ludwig. That he is now known as a defensive liability and an offensive d-man is a shocker. Man do I know how to peg them
Tsk Tsk PPJ.....I'm having a "How to" seminar later in the week. Brent Bilodeau will be the guest speaker on "How to draft for NHL success". Hope to see you there.

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12-12-2006, 04:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
Playing with words? No I just think you have to read the post more carefully since your responses are refuting the "trade him at all costs" philosophy. here's one way to tell that this is what you are refuting:


While I disagree with you on letting him walk for nothing, you can disagree. I just ask that you respond to the actual point.
I just don't see the point of making a complete list of "why we should maybe think about offering him in a trade" if the only reason you want to trade him is to get a better center. As I said, I disagree with the idea that a better 2nd line center and a more defensive minded defenseman would help the team.

You won't get the kind of players who can replace Souray in a trade at this point in the season because the kind of players you want are on teams that are either in the playoff, or still have hopes for them. The only things you'll get in a trade right now is problematic players and rookies. Which means you weaken the team instead of improving it. Wait for the deadlines, at that point you'll be able to get better players for cheaper ( promising rookies mostly ).

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Old
12-12-2006, 04:46 PM
  #28
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This is ridiculous.

If we trade Souray, we're going to need to pick up a rent a player to boost our powerplay and give us leadership for our playoff run. We have our rent a player in our lineup now. It would be stupid to weaken ourselves before the playoffs as we have a good chance to be giant killers. Let's milk Souray for all he's worth while we can afford his salary and then we'll let him walk when his salary gets out of whack. This is the business of today's salary cap era New NHL and fortunately we have a well stocked minor league system full of assets that give us the ability to replenish any veteran talent we may lose.

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12-12-2006, 04:50 PM
  #29
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If Montreal trades Souray this season, while we're a top 3 team in the Conference, I may just stop cheering for the Habs. Unless a really, really sweet package comes around, it is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in a while.

So everyone's sick of losing in the first and second round. Well let me tell you that dumping arguably one of our top three players this season won't help that.

We didn't get past Carolina. That it was in the first round doesn't matter, because they won the Stanley Cup. For all anyone knows, with different seeding we might have made it to the Conference Finals. What round in which you lose in the playoffs doesn't matter, what matters is we lost. Cup or bust. With Souray we have a better shot at the Cup.

It isn't out of the question that we can keep Souray at the end of the season, anyway. Even if we don't, it frees up money to sign a UFA defenseman, or bring up a new prospect and sign a forward.

When the status quo works, stick with it.

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Old
12-12-2006, 04:53 PM
  #30
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5 reasons why we SHOULDN'T offer Souray around:

1. He's one of the main reasons our powerplay has been so successful.

2. He's the team leader in goals and 2nd in points.

3. His UFA status at the end of the season hurts his trade value.

4. Whatever we'd get for him likely wouldn't help us any more than hanging onto him.

5. He's a snappy dresser.

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Old
12-12-2006, 04:58 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
My problem with your post is that you are not considering the possibility that we lose Souray for nothing at the end of the season as a UFA.
Well, goes to show what you know about what I may or may not be considering. I take it for granted that we will lose Souray for "nothing" at the end of the season. (Although it would be a heckuva bonus if we somehow managed to re-sign him - but I'm definitely not expecting that). I do however put the quotation marks very much around "nothing", because I think in the new NHL the $5M of cap space that we might have budgeted to accomodate Souray can always be put to fabulous use if indeed he goes elsewhere for more on the market. Success this season, whatever we can accomplish in the playoffs (which will IMHO be far greater with Souray than with whatever we might hope to get in a trade for him) *plus* either Souray back or $5M to spend in the summer is a great haul. Better than Comrie and Ballard. Better than anything we will get in a trade for him. There is no such thing as losing a player for nothing anymore. And it's not something that should ever have concerned a competitive team anyway, even in the old days before the quotation marks came into play.

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Truthfully, without that reason, it just might be insane. Assume for one second that he does want to be closer to his daughter and he may choose not to sign here. Then what?
See above. Great for Sheldon, good for us either way.

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:03 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by gst233 View Post
If anything that proposal is bad for Phoenix. Ballard is their top defenseman right now - young, cheap, and good. I don't see them giving him up for a soon-to-be-UFA that wouldn't re-sign in Phoenix, a forward who has done nothing all year, and Aebischer.
Good for them. I'm sure Ballard has great value around the league. You can keep your "value" though we'll settle for a playoff spot.
"Cap space" and "Value" won't win a Conn Smithe.

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:17 PM
  #33
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I'm all for moving him now. I would just hate to keep him here all year and the bounce at the end of the season with nothing coming back our way.


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Old
12-12-2006, 05:20 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by YOUTH OF HABS View Post
I'm all for moving him now. I would just hate to keep him here all year and the bounce at the end of the season with nothing coming back our way.

Even at the expense of having a worse team??

I can't fathom a deal where we improve as a team after dealing Souray away.

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:25 PM
  #35
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Ugh!

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:27 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Even at the expense of having a worse team??

I can't fathom a deal where we improve as a team after dealing Souray away.
well considering we would be getting something for him and as we saw last year the price for a guy like souray is a high one. so i don't think we would be getting a bag of pucks...

do you really think this team is gonna win the cup with souray on or off the roster ?

if we can get a 2nd line center for him. DO IT!

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:31 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUTH OF HABS View Post
well considering we would be getting something for him and as we saw last year the price for a guy like souray is a high one. so i don't think we would be getting a bag of pucks...

do you really think this team is gonna win the cup with souray on or off the roster ?

if we can get a 2nd line center for him. DO IT!
Because of course, if you cannot win a cup with Souray in the lineup without a good 2nd line center, another team will gladly give us their great 2nd line center for him.

I don't think you'll get a bag of puck, but you won't get much better then a Ribeiro and a prospect at this point in the season.

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:37 PM
  #38
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Ridiculous.

With a little luck and our skill players getting hot at the right time, this team could win the Cup. At the very least, we're as close as we have been since 93, and you might even argue this team can be better than that one. Trade Souray without an equally good replacement in mind, and you can forget that.

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:37 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Azalichio View Post
I don't think you'll get a bag of puck, but you won't get much better then a Ribeiro and a prospect at this point in the season.
I don't think that's true. There are two types of packages that would likely be offered for Souray;

(1) - impending UFA for impending UFA. If Gainey and co. are vocal about a need, and feel that need is greater than what Souray provides, then another team who has depth in Montreal's position of need and has a need for a player like Souray would make a terrific trade partner.

I don't think this is likely because I see Souray as a core, irreplaceable player for this season, but it's a possibility.


(2) - package of prospects/picks. Decent to good ones, too. Likely a first rounder and a quality prospect.

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12-12-2006, 05:37 PM
  #40
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Souray won't be traded this year unless the Habs fall out of the playoffs or we trade him for a significantly better player i.e Marleu (won't happen anyways) and here's why. He is the offensive catalyst to our power play which is one of the best in the league, especially now when special temas are so important. He is also a team leader and brings stability to the defensive unit and to younger players like Markov and Komi. He is one of the top defensmen in the league to date and to trade him for futures sends to message to the team that this year is STILL a rebuilding year and we don't have the confidence in your ability in the play offs, as well as to the fans who have been waiting for 12 years for an extended play off run. So unless we get something very special back that will help us right now (Hossa for Heatley deal), I don't see him going anywhere. Worse comes to worse we loose him in the off season and sign another top D-man for the money we would have spent on Souray. Welcome to the new NFL, cough... sorry NHL.

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:38 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by gst233 View Post
If anything that proposal is bad for Phoenix. Ballard is their top defenseman right now - young, cheap, and good. I don't see them giving him up for a soon-to-be-UFA that wouldn't re-sign in Phoenix, a forward who has done nothing all year, and Aebischer.
That's definitely true, which points to the problem in trying to deal Souray. Teams may give up prospects, draft picks, or even an impending UFA of their own, but they won't give away young building blocks like Ballard (especially Phoenix, which is going nowhere).

The Stoll idea is interesting, but even then, why would Edmonton deal such a major piece going into the playoffs? If Pouliot or Schremp were a little closer to the big time, maybe, but it'd be like trading Ryder for a rental and crossing our fingers that Kostitsyn was ready for the big minutes in a pressure situation.

Anyway, I can't think of a realistic scenario where trading Souray would be a good thing. It just seems so foolish to trade a D that every playoff bound team -- EVEN THE HABS -- would love to have.

It's far more cost effective to look for a bargain, disposable C at the deadline, someone like Nedved or Stumpel or whoever. It'll only cost a crappy draft pick but would provide depth and the off-chance that Rental X finds magical chemistry with Samsonov or Kovalev etc... If not, the Habs still have their (2nd) best D and the rest of the team that has played in the top half of the Conference since the beginning of the season.

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:38 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecliptica View Post
5 reasons why we SHOULDN'T offer Souray around:

1. He's one of the main reasons our powerplay has been so successful.

2. He's the team leader in goals and 2nd in points.

3. His UFA status at the end of the season hurts his trade value.

4. Whatever we'd get for him likely wouldn't help us any more than hanging onto him.

5. He's a snappy dresser.
I'll add that he brings an intimidating, physical presence to our back end, and that he provides veteran leadership for the dressing room.

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:39 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
1) Souray has outperformed himself to this point, meaning he has done better up until now than he will do for the rest of the season. He's not going to score 25-30 goals, so his value is higher now than it will probably ever be again.
Trade him, and prepare for another round of "How do we acquire offense for our blueline?". Where, oh where, will the offense come from if Souray isn't on the point? Our defense will be incredibly soft, and impotent.


Quote:
2) The Habs need to improve their mobility on defense. Souray is an offensive contributor but he is slow and not very good defensively; a -8.
Souray isn't slow, Rivet is slow.

Quote:
3) Souray is injury prone. He will inevitably miss some time this season. He might even miss tonight's game due to injury. So again, he may be worth more now than at any time again.
Lets trade Bouillion and Dandenault as well then. Both are injury prone, both are suspect defensively.

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:43 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I don't think that's true. There are two types of packages that would likely be offered for Souray;

(1) - impending UFA for impending UFA. If Gainey and co. are vocal about a need, and feel that need is greater than what Souray provides, then another team who has depth in Montreal's position of need and has a need for a player like Souray would make a terrific trade partner.

I don't think this is likely because I see Souray as a core, irreplaceable player for this season, but it's a possibility.


(2) - package of prospects/picks. Decent to good ones, too. Likely a first rounder and a quality prospect.
It's part of what I'm saying though, what's the point in trading a UFA for another UFA. In both case you'll lose them at the end of the season. If you are not improving your team what's the point in trading a player with charisma and leadership?

And I agree with your 2nd point, but again, it's a step backward for this year instead of forward ( and could be for more then one year depending on how "nhl ready" the prospect are )

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12-12-2006, 05:52 PM
  #45
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Montreal would be below .500 right now if it wasnt for Souray and Huet .... But im tired of some Mtl fans and other people around on the board not putting/giving any value to montreal players that they deserve.
Example: Ryder is useless, one-dimensional player....it makes no sense. Ask GMs around the league and they would love to have a Ryder type player in their lineup. You need goalscorer, and he has improved his game this year a lot more, i know he still has the tendency to shoot more than pass...but he will improve....at 2.2m$ he is worth it....
And for Souray...oh he is a liability defensively ..blah blah.... the guy is playing his best hockey rightnow. but some would say oh, its mostly on the PP ... so what, in today's nhl, special teams can win u games or lose u games.... and Souray is winning it for us. What abt McCabe....he is as bad as Souray defensively but his value is still intact,if not increasing. Then, some say he is a UFA, he doesnt have that much value....why hasnt Doan's value changed ? he is a Ufa as well, but people want top players in return for him...same for Nagy, Symth....The same should be applied to Souray.

People make it sound like Mtl players have NO VALUE and its no fluke that we are 4th in the East.
The reason i say Souray should be traded is because he could command 6m$ a year and mtl cant pay him that much...and he is moslty to give a discount to teams near Cali so that he can be with his daughter.
So either u let him walk at the end of the season or u package him for a 2nd line center.
Edmonton is desperate for a D-man, and Souray will fit good there, or SJ .... they would love to have him and likelyhood of him signing with them are high...very high.

What abt Souray for Horcoff.....
then we can try to trade Samsonov and/or prospect/pick for a D-man....Brewer, maybe!!

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Old
12-12-2006, 05:59 PM
  #46
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Our D is the weakest part of our team, we have plenty of NHL calibre D but for the exception of Markov, Souray, and Komi who is really becomming a force the rest are all bottom pairing guys. Souray is one of our only legitmate top 4 guys, if were gonna make a real run for the cup we should be adding a top 4 defencemen not trading one.

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Old
12-12-2006, 06:19 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Azalichio View Post
It's part of what I'm saying though, what's the point in trading a UFA for another UFA. In both case you'll lose them at the end of the season. If you are not improving your team what's the point in trading a player with charisma and leadership?

And I agree with your 2nd point, but again, it's a step backward for this year instead of forward ( and could be for more then one year depending on how "nhl ready" the prospect are )

(1) Because it's not bad to trade a high risk UFA for low risk UFA.

(2) With all due respect, this team is not going to win the cup. We are not going to win the cup until we have an offensive core that can put more pucks in the net. This group will make every goaltender look like a vezina trophy winner.

(3) Obviously most of you disagree, but because there is no way in hell this team is going to win the Cup (it's better but not Cup worthy) I would rather get something for Souray than nothing. I like the way Blind Gardien articulated his post and it makes sense, I just don't see it that way.


Mike,
Given your above post (UFA for UFA) , don't you think it's unlikely Edmonton will trade stoll? I think he has a year left after this one. That's another reason I thought Comrie might be a good option.


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Old
12-12-2006, 06:42 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
I am proposing this trade because I'm sick of being eliminated in the first and second round. Last year our forwards had trouble beating Ward and that's really the only reason we lost to Carolina. To get past the first and second round, we will need better offensive production from our forwards. That's the catalyst here.
and you think that comrie and ballard are going to get us past the second round ? i think that you and many others on this board vastly over estimate our need for a second line center and as to losing him as an UFA at the end of the year , well thats just a fact in a capped league , get used to it .

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Old
12-12-2006, 06:55 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by eddy View Post
Our D is the weakest part of our team, we have plenty of NHL calibre D but for the exception of Markov, Souray, and Komi who is really becomming a force the rest are all bottom pairing guys. Souray is one of our only legitmate top 4 guys, if were gonna make a real run for the cup we should be adding a top 4 defencemen not trading one.
i've been saying this for some time now but all i can hear is second line center ad nauseum . i predict that gainey will acquire a top four defenceman and carbonneau will let koivu and higgins anchor our top two lines .

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12-12-2006, 06:55 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
My problem with your post is that you are not considering the possibility that we lose Souray for nothing at the end of the season as a UFA. Truthfully, without that reason, it just might be insane. Assume for one second that he does want to be closer to his daughter and he may choose not to sign here. Then what?
So you lose him that is the new NHL. In the NFL, teams let players walk all the time for cap reason and this is something that will be seem more and more in the new NHL. I say keep him and get out of him what you can. I hope they can make in far in the playoffs and suprise a few teams.


As for your trade, it does not make much sense, especially in the cap world and Comrie, as much as you might like him, is not the center we need.

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