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10-27-2013, 07:53 PM
  #51
maplepred
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Voracek is not the freaking answer. He's a mid tier player. We have those. Sure, he may be better than what we have but not by a landslide. We need elite players. If we're trading any of Josi, Weber or Jones it's to get a top 3 forward, not another run of the mill forward. We need game breakers, guys that can change the game all by themselves and make those around them better, Voracek is not that type of guy. Oh my freaking lord.
We have those type of guys?? Really? Who??
Nobody on our team of forwards is comparable to voracek.

Who is better than voracek that you would trade josi for?

I don't get why people are saying voracek is not very gifted offensively.

Again this deal is in a year or so, we have more depth on forwards but way less talent on forwards than defense as well.

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10-27-2013, 07:54 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Montross View Post
He is still pouting that Barkov didn't fall to us.
No I'm not. I am saying that we thought we were getting a big forward at draft. Instead got more defense. So since we got jones why not make a move with another d for a forward. Jones will be better than josi most likely.

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10-27-2013, 08:16 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
We have those type of guys?? Really? Who??
Nobody on our team of forwards is comparable to voracek.
Was Erat a game-breaker?

Seriously. Their games are spookily similar.

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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Who is better than voracek that you would trade josi for?
There are many forwards better than Voracek. They are also just as easily available for trade.

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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
No I'm not. I am saying that we thought we were getting a big forward at draft. Instead got more defense. So since we got jones why not make a move with another d for a forward. Jones will be better than josi most likely.
Because the blueline depth is not there anymore. It has been eroded over time in wild-ass chases for other forwards, and $uter's abrupt unplanned departure exposed that pretty badly.

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10-28-2013, 10:30 AM
  #54
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I'm gonna have to continue siding with Maple here.

Maybe the reason Voracek is being over looked is because he plays on a team that has Giroux and some other names but Voracek here would instantly be the man. He'd be that offensive player, webs the d, and peks the goalie. the big 3. not to mention we could add in ufa.

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10-28-2013, 10:38 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by thecloser View Post
I'm gonna have to continue siding with Maple here.

Maybe the reason Voracek is being over looked is because he plays on a team that has Giroux and some other names but Voracek here would instantly be the man. He'd be that offensive player, webs the d, and peks the goalie. the big 3. not to mention we could add in ufa.
If anything, playing with Giroux has increased his value. He doesn't hit almost a PPG last season if he doesn't play with Giroux. I think Viqsi's assessment is pretty accurate, he would be a very similar player to Martin Erat, and his stats prior to last season bear out that assessment, a 45-55 point guy, with a little more upside in a great season. Sure, he's still young and capable of development, and it's possible last year wasn't an anomaly, but the statistics bear out that it probably was.

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10-28-2013, 10:41 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post


There are many forwards better than Voracek. They are also just as easily available for trade.

so who you got in mind?

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10-28-2013, 10:42 AM
  #57
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Which line does Voracek play on for the Flyers? Do we have players of the same talent to ensure that he keeps up the same pace as before or does Trotz put him on the 4th line and make him grind/sit him like Stalberg is now?

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10-28-2013, 10:50 AM
  #58
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probably sit him and tell hellberg to go play forward. I used to really like trotz but that man needs to go. 15 years and a long tenure is great and all but Nashville needs a change. Our d-men know how to play the game, it's time to bring in an offensive minded coach.

Peter Laviolette?

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10-28-2013, 10:58 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecloser View Post
I'm gonna have to continue siding with Maple here.

Maybe the reason Voracek is being over looked is because he plays on a team that has Giroux and some other names but Voracek here would instantly be the man. He'd be that offensive player, webs the d, and peks the goalie. the big 3. not to mention we could add in ufa.
If you pursue Voracek with this idea of him in mind you will be overwhelmingly disappointed. This is akin to someone going after Kevin Klein with the assumption that he can run a blueline. It's not that he isn't good at what he does; it just doesn't make him someone you can lean on to that degree.

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Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
If anything, playing with Giroux has increased his value. He doesn't hit almost a PPG last season if he doesn't play with Giroux. I think Viqsi's assessment is pretty accurate, he would be a very similar player to Martin Erat, and his stats prior to last season bear out that assessment, a 45-55 point guy, with a little more upside in a great season. Sure, he's still young and capable of development, and it's possible last year wasn't an anomaly, but the statistics bear out that it probably was.
I feel I should point out that said assessment was based less on statistics and more on my being a longtime fan of both players and the teams both of them have spent the bulk of their career on, and thus getting a lot of observation in.

Heck, they're so similar that I was hoping to poach Erat at one point to make up for the loss of Jake...

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so who you got in mind?
The point I was making there wasn't that there were other folks available. The point was that Voracek is not readily available. Ask any Philly fan.

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Originally Posted by Preds101 View Post
Which line does Voracek play on for the Flyers?
Top line, with Giroux and (I believe) Hartnell.

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10-28-2013, 11:06 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post

I feel I should point out that said assessment was based less on statistics and more on my being a longtime fan of both players and the teams both of them have spent the bulk of their career on, and thus getting a lot of observation in.

Heck, they're so similar that I was hoping to poach Erat at one point to make up for the loss of Jake...
Yeah, I figured, which is why I was trying to invoke your presence back on page 1.

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10-28-2013, 11:12 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post

Top line, with Giroux and (I believe) Hartnell.
That is my point, we don't nearly have a center of Giroux's quality. Although if we could pull off a trade(and get rid of Trotz) our lines might be:

Vorachek - Cullen - Stalberg
Forsberg - Smith - Wilson
Hornquist - Fisher - Nystrom
Hendricks - Gaustad - Borque

Weber - Jones
Klein - Ekholm
? - Bartley

Please forgive me but I am not the best at lines and putting the best players together, but those top two lines look pretty nice. But I am still not sure if Voracek is the answer to the teams scoring issues.

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10-28-2013, 11:13 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Preds101 View Post
That is my point, we don't nearly have a center of Giroux's quality. Although if we could pull off a trade(and get rid of Trotz) our lines might be:

Vorachek - Cullen - Stalberg
Forsberg - Smith - Wilson
Hornquist - Fisher - Nystrom
Hendricks - Gaustad - Borque

Weber - Jones
Klein - Ekholm
? - Bartley

Please forgive me but I am not the best at lines and putting the best players together, but those top two lines look pretty nice. But I am still not sure if Voracek is the answer to the teams scoring issues.
Josi on the blueline once healthy.

EDIT - unless you want to trade him for that Philly player. My bad.

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10-28-2013, 11:32 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Montross View Post
Josi on the blueline once healthy.

EDIT - unless you want to trade him for that Philly player. My bad.
I figured some combination of Ellis/Josi/1st would be sent for Voracek, but I am not even sure if thats fair value or if we would need to add.

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10-28-2013, 10:59 PM
  #64
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1. People saying voracek won't perform without giroux are dead wrong. Semin performed big without ovie and backstrom, ribeiro performs awesome in Washington, Dallas and now Phoenix, who are all three different playing types. Hell, seguin looks even better and is without Bergeron, krejci, etc. how about gaborik playing just as well with nobody in Columbus after being in the big apple?!

2. Guys saying voracek is just another erat and he is just a 45-50 point guy, lmao! What?! Seriously?!?!
The kid hit 44 points in only 48 games last season as a 23 year old! Before that as a 20-22 year old he was already nailing up 45-50 point seasons. How can you say that's his ceiling?! That is one of the most uneducated hockey hypothesis' I have ever heard. Voracek will definitely be better than erat, he already is and is just 24 years old. This kid is dynamite and anyone who wouldn't wanna sacrifice one of our amazing defensemento add some pep to our weak forwards is crazy. I do that deal all day long! You sound like trotz!! Lol.

Seriously, we have never done anything with suter, weber, Klein, Etc etc, why not finally move ''one of'' our stud d's and get ''a''stud o that we don't have?!

Plus voracek will be great for guys like Wilson, aberg and ff. He is also a big boy, and that's what poile wants, get bigger.

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10-28-2013, 11:10 PM
  #65
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Again I'm sure Philly and Poile talk daily...I'm sure Weber made them the best of business partners

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10-28-2013, 11:54 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
1. People saying voracek won't perform without giroux are dead wrong. Semin performed big without ovie and backstrom, ribeiro performs awesome in Washington, Dallas and now Phoenix, who are all three different playing types. Hell, seguin looks even better and is without Bergeron, krejci, etc. how about gaborik playing just as well with nobody in Columbus after being in the big apple?!

2. Guys saying voracek is just another erat and he is just a 45-50 point guy, lmao! What?! Seriously?!?!
The kid hit 44 points in only 48 games last season as a 23 year old! Before that as a 20-22 year old he was already nailing up 45-50 point seasons. How can you say that's his ceiling?! That is one of the most uneducated hockey hypothesis' I have ever heard. Voracek will definitely be better than erat, he already is and is just 24 years old. This kid is dynamite and anyone who wouldn't wanna sacrifice one of our amazing defensemento add some pep to our weak forwards is crazy. I do that deal all day long! You sound like trotz!! Lol.

Seriously, we have never done anything with suter, weber, Klein, Etc etc, why not finally move ''one of'' our stud d's and get ''a''stud o that we don't have?!

Plus voracek will be great for guys like Wilson, aberg and ff. He is also a big boy, and that's what poile wants, get bigger.
Point #1 has nothing to do with the discussion. Nobody is arguing he won't produce without Giroux, he has already done that prior to last season...to the tune of around 20 goals, and 50 points. What other players have done has absolutely no relevance to the possible production of Jakub Voracek.

As to point #2, you are placing all your eggs into the one-time production of a player as the norm, while ignoring the 5 years of incredibly stable and consistent production before that. Nobody will argue that Voracek has no further room to grow, but not all NHL players have consistent growth in production throughout their career. Based on his entire body of work, he's likely a 45-50 point guy with a potential for more in a given season. That he's not even on pace to hit that this season, does even less to support that he's the PPG player he's being made out to be.

I'll reiterate. I really like Voracek, and would love to have him on the Preds, but not with those kind of expectations on him, and not for the inflated price he would fetch right now.


Last edited by Iron Duke: 10-29-2013 at 12:00 AM.
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10-29-2013, 10:30 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
Point #1 has nothing to do with the discussion. Nobody is arguing he won't produce without Giroux, he has already done that prior to last season...to the tune of around 20 goals, and 50 points. What other players have done has absolutely no relevance to the possible production of Jakub Voracek
Read up a few posts....


Also, you cannot think voracek is only a 45-50 point guy cuz he hasn't cracked seventy yet, that just not sensible. The kid is still so young and has already put up good numbers, he will only go up. And playing in Nashville as the main piece of offense would be clutch.

We can always trade for or draft more defensemen, poile and company is magnificent at nailing dmen, but forwards.... Well not so much.

Voracek had 44 points in just 48 games last year. Need I say more? Oh yeah. Is also only 24

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10-29-2013, 10:33 AM
  #68
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Stalberg put up a ton of es points in a very limited time on offense therefor when he comes here and gets a ton of minutes and pp time he's going to rack up a bunch of points.

See how that doesn't work.

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10-29-2013, 10:45 AM
  #69
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the same people saying no to voracek are the ones that say yes when i post a trade proposal for fleischmann or versteeg.

Voracek is better than both....i guess i just don't understand our fanbase then.

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10-29-2013, 10:57 AM
  #70
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the same people saying no to voracek are the ones that say yes when i post a trade proposal for fleischmann or versteeg.

Voracek is better than both....i guess i just don't understand our fanbase then.
If you'd proposed Josi for either of them, I would expect similar disagreements.

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10-29-2013, 11:13 AM
  #71
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i wouldn't wanna see Josi go but if it means offense, then i'd consider it. 44pts in 48 games...he's better than any forward on our roster.

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10-29-2013, 11:21 AM
  #72
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i wouldn't wanna see Josi go but if it means offense, then i'd consider it. 44pts in 48 games...he's better than any forward on our roster.
For one season tc. Is it still worth it if he goes back to the production he averaged every other year of his career? I'd still love THAT player on this team, but not at the cost of Josi.

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10-29-2013, 11:33 AM
  #73
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Ok, I'm gonna level with you ID. After researching him I wouldn't let Josi go for him. I'd move a prospect and a 3rd most likely. and maybe add Spaling if we could just to get cap space and a grinder out.

His stats for his career look like this

w/BlueJackets
08-09- 80GP 9G 29A - 38pts
09-10- 81GP 16G 34A - 50pts
10-11- 80GP 14G 32A- 46pts
w/Flyers
11-12- 78GP 18G 31A- 49pts
12-13- 48GP 22G 24A- 46pts

so far this season 10GP 1G 3A 4pts

As of right now he hovers around 40-50pts. With that said, he's worth a prospect, a forward and maybe a pick. The lockout season he had one of his best years and he started out hot. Things are looking up for the guy and i do think being on a line with wilson, stalberg, or smith and cullen would get production out of him. But I do have to agree that he's not going to be a 70-80pt player. 65 at most, unless he crazily breaks out.

All of this taken into account, I still want him in gold.

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10-29-2013, 11:40 AM
  #74
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Ok, I'm gonna level with you ID. After researching him I wouldn't let Josi go for him. I'd move a prospect and a 3rd most likely. and maybe add Spaling if we could just to get cap space and a grinder out.

His stats for his career look like this

w/BlueJackets
08-09- 80GP 9G 29A - 38pts
09-10- 81GP 16G 34A - 50pts
10-11- 80GP 14G 32A- 46pts
w/Flyers
11-12- 78GP 18G 31A- 49pts
12-13- 48GP 22G 24A- 46pts

so far this season 10GP 1G 3A 4pts

As of right now he hovers around 40-50pts. With that said, he's worth a prospect, a forward and maybe a pick. The lockout season he had one of his best years and he started out hot. Things are looking up for the guy and i do think being on a line with wilson, stalberg, or smith and cullen would get production out of him. But I do have to agree that he's not going to be a 70-80pt player. 65 at most, unless he crazily breaks out.

All of this taken into account, I still want him in gold.
We're on the same page.

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10-29-2013, 11:51 AM
  #75
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
Yeah, I figured, which is why I was trying to invoke your presence back on page 1.
...wow, I completely missed that.

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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
1. People saying voracek won't perform without giroux are dead wrong. Semin performed big without ovie and backstrom, ribeiro performs awesome in Washington, Dallas and now Phoenix, who are all three different playing types. Hell, seguin looks even better and is without Bergeron, krejci, etc. how about gaborik playing just as well with nobody in Columbus after being in the big apple?!
Current point paces of Gaborik and the "nobodys" Gaborik is playing with:
Gaborik: 5-5-10 in 10gp, 1.00 ppg.
Wisniewski: 1-8-9 in 11gp, 0.82 ppg.
Dubinsky: 3-5-8 in 11gp, 0.73 ppg.
Johansen, Anisimov: 3-4-7/4-3-7 in 11gp, 0.64 ppg.
Foligno: 3-2-5 in 8gp, 0.63 ppg.

Thank you for your trolling attempt, as it's quite flattering... but you fail.

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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
2. Guys saying voracek is just another erat and he is just a 45-50 point guy, lmao! What?! Seriously?!?!
Hon, when I say "another Erat", that's meant as praise. Erat was a very special player. But he was not a star.

You're putting way too much weight on his prior season, IMO.

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