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Time to part with people who say "Part with Kostitsyn/Trade Kostitsyn"

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Old
12-13-2006, 10:22 AM
  #1
Kostitsyn404*
 
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Time to part with people who say "Part with Kostitsyn/Trade Kostitsyn"

I was reading another thread on this forum and I'd like to address an issue with it in general.

Why is it that Guillame Latandresse comes up from the QMJHL, he does nothing for MANY games and people are all like "keep him up, don't send him back", "he's good" etc. But god forbid Kostitsyn comes up once this season and they send him back, and we get threads that say to trade him.

News Flash. Kostitsyn is a +11 on his team. He's also the 2nd highest point leader on the bulldogs, as well as our #1 prospect at the moment. He was drafted too low for his abilities as people thought he was epileptic.

Kostitsyn had an injury he was playing with early on this season. Ever since he seemed to have recovered, he's been playing great. Grabovsky, Lapierre and Kostitsyn are 3 very good prospects. None of them should be traded or given away because frankly you won't get anything for them. Kostitsyn/Lapierre are going to be great NHLers.

I don't see how people are saying "trade kosty" when he's doing well in the AHL. Plus on top of that at least he's been in the AHL.

Bottom line:

Is it me, or are people here biased for Francophone players, or biased against Russian players?

All I see are "Trade Kostitsyn/Samsanov/Kovalev" threads littering this place on a daily basis. Yes "litter".

When Lat was doing poorly when we first brought him up, you were all so quick to defend. We gave tenderbaby all the time in the world to adapt to the NHL. He has adapted and is a great player now. (Nice goal last night against Boston).

But fact is, your willing to give him so much time to improve and become what he has, so why not Kostitsyn? He was scouted much higher then Lat and there IS a reason for that. He's most likely going to put up higher stats in the NHL then Lat will too. So why trade him and get nothing for him?

Which is it, bias against Russians or bias for Quebecers? Because I honestly find it ******** that all the trade rumors, all the blame is almost always pointed at russian players. If it's a russian player with experience versus a quebec born player with none, you guys choose the Quebecer. (Hence most ppl on this board like Lat > Kostitsyn)

Fact: Lat was drafted far lower then Kostitsyn
Fact: Only reason Lat was in the NHL to begin with is because he couldn't be in the AHL
Fact: Lat only has played well on Koivu's line. (I'm sure Murray wouldn't be half bad on a line with Koivu either)

Bottom Line: What's the deal with everyone wanting Kostitsyn gone? He hasn't even been given a chance yet, and unlike Latandresse, it didn't take him like 10+ games to get a goal in the NHL. (Last season when we brought up Kostitsyn he scored).

Put Kostitsyn with Sammy and Kovalev for 10 games (like Lat has had with Koivu now) and I bet you he has similar stats to Lat if not better. And thats on a lower line. Infact that's on our underachiever line.

You guys are so quick to say "trade Kosty" but you haven't even let him prove anything yet. You were all so eager to give Latandresse all season to do dick all if he needed it, but Kosty comes up for one game and it's like "trade him".

Personally I find it really stupid. It is freedom of opinion and if you think that Kosty should be traded it's your opinion. It's the reasoning behind the opinion I find hard to understand. The guy has barely even played a game yet for the Habs, yet he's 2nd best on our farm team.

But you don't say trade Lapierre, who by the way is a +8 (not a +11) and is 3rd on our farm team. Why is that? Why is it you'd rather trade a better player picked 10th overall like Kosty, over a player like Lapierre? Sure he got an assist in his first game. Lapierre is good. But come on, it's like if the guys french a lot of the people on this board worship the ground he walks on. (Same can be said for Russian players though, some people do worship Russian players like they are the best).

Really I'm not saying Kostitsyn is a god of hockey or something. But our scouts know what they're doing. He was picked 10th overall for a reason. He was picked 1st round for a reason. All of this is for a reason. When they were scouting him I'm pretty sure the scouts knew he was better then Latandresse, or Latandresse would have been picked sooner then he was. Plain and Simple.

Not saying Lat is a bad player or person. Just saying everybody is so quick to give him as Loooooong a chance as he needs. But when it comes time for another player who is supposed to be better to get his shot, it's like "trade him, he's horrible" when the guys barely played a few games in the NHL. Plus Kosty was never given a solid 5-6 games in a row in the NHL. Latandresse was. Obviously he's going to improve with Koivu feeding him the puck and also playing like 30 NHL games in a row.

If I were on a line with Koivu I'm pretty sure I would get points too. Koivu could bank the puck in off of my head, he's that good so it all really depends on what line your on too when your a rookie. You think Lat would be doing so good if he was on the 4th line still? no.

Stop being so quick to judge. Basing your opinions on ******** bias. If it's good for our team, it's good for our team. If there comes a day where our team is nearly 100% russian or 100% quebecers or 100% torontonians, I don't really care as long as they're a good team and the players give it 100% every night.

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Old
12-13-2006, 10:26 AM
  #2
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Old
12-13-2006, 10:30 AM
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Amen! Say it again!

You're right.

An interesting parralel article can be found on hockeytraderumours.com (or something like that)... essentially, it says that Canadiens fans are, on the whole, are too quick to trade away their assets due to an impatience, a desire to see stardom right away.

C'est dommage.

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12-13-2006, 10:32 AM
  #4
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Wow That,s A Pretty Long Thread For Something That Most Of Us Already Agree (if You Had Read The Post You Are Actually Talking About You Would Have Seen That Most Of The Reply Says That We Should Keep Him And That He Is A Good Asset)

Oh Well

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12-13-2006, 10:37 AM
  #5
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Originally Posted by THEREW View Post
Wow That,s A Pretty Long Thread For Something That Most Of Us Already Agree (if You Had Read The Post You Are Actually Talking About You Would Have Seen That Most Of The Reply Says That We Should Keep Him And That He Is A Good Asset)

Oh Well
Yeah but then I wouldn't have been able to make the point about bias etc. I really do feel many habs fans are biased against Russians. They'd rather see a young kid from Quebec on their team even if he's worse then the Russian/Other.

I think it's pretty clear that is true. Because looking back at older threads, when Lat first was brought up you can clearly see that people wanted Lat > Kostitsyn even though Kost was picked 10th overall and has NHL experience already.

Just want all you lat followers to know, Lat may be a decent player, but had Kosty been given the time to develope in the NHL he would probably already have 10 goals minimum. Plus our 2nd line problems could've been solved by it.

I think it's pretty clear there's bias when people are choosing a guy picked somewhere in the 2nd round over a dude picked 10th over all.

I think that makes it pretty obvious considering Lat has only performed on Koivu's line.

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12-13-2006, 10:39 AM
  #6
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Latendresse at 19 years old > Kostitsyn at almost 22 years old

That is telling.

That said, I think Kostitsyn right now could give us what Samsonov does and at a fraction of the cost. Hindsight is 20/20 but right now I wish Gainey had gone with the kids instead of dipping into the UFA market this past summer. That cap room Samsonov takes up would come in really handy when we try to sign our d-men, Ryder and Higgins this summer to extensions.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 12-13-2006 at 10:44 AM.
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12-13-2006, 10:45 AM
  #7
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Originally Posted by Kostitsyn404 View Post
Yeah but then I wouldn't have been able to make the point about bias etc. I really do feel many habs fans are biased against Russians. They'd rather see a young kid from Quebec on their team even if he's worse then the Russian/Other.

I think it's pretty clear that is true. Because looking back at older threads, when Lat first was brought up you can clearly see that people wanted Lat > Kostitsyn even though Kost was picked 10th overall and has NHL experience already.

Just want all you lat followers to know, Lat may be a decent player, but had Kosty been given the time to develope in the NHL he would probably already have 10 goals minimum. Plus our 2nd line problems could've been solved by it.

I think it's pretty clear there's bias when people are choosing a guy picked somewhere in the 2nd round over a dude picked 10th over all.

I think that makes it pretty obvious considering Lat has only performed on Koivu's line.
It's called an opinion - look into it. This is an open forum.

My opinion is that he will not turn into anything more than a fringe NHL'er. Maybe I'll be wrong.

I don't think he has all the tools, physical and mental, to be a front line player.

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12-13-2006, 10:48 AM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Latendresse at 19 years old > Kostitsyn at almost 22 years old

That is telling
That isn't true though. Lat > Kost. He was just given more chances. Sorry but *** did Lat do the first like 10 games he was in the NHL? Nothing. He wasn't even up to speed. It took him 15 games or so to even LOOK like an NHLer.

At least Lapierre and Kostitsyn look like NHLers. They have the speed etc.

And saying Kostitsyn isn't as good as a guy who never even when to the AHL is pretty bold. Especially considering he hasn't been able to put up points with out Koivu.

Put Kostitsyn in with Koivu for 20 games vs Latandresses last 20 games w/ Koivu. I'm certain it would be a much different story about how "great" Lat is.

Infact, Kostitsyn was never even given a real chance yet, so how can you say? I'm not saying it's 100% that he's better then Lats, but you just did say Lat is better then Kosty. It's funny you would know that. Are you a Scout for the habs? Have you been following the AHL and the NHL? It's hard for me to believe that you can say one player is better then another whom hasn't even been given a chance to play yet. Comparitively Latandresse was given so many chances that it's not even funny.

Who's better? The guy who had the free ticket to the NHL because he couldn't go to the AHL? The guy who did nothing for like 10 straight games in the NHL until he finally did something?

Or the guy who's fighting his way into the NHL and proving day after day on his farm team that he IS NHL worthy. A guy who basically got screwed out of playing for us because "boohoo" Lat couldn't sit in the QJMHL. No offense, it was a smart idea to bring Lat up first due to that situation but that is the ONLY reason. Higgins has been injured a while now, our 4th line has been playing like crap for a while now and so has our second. When is this guy going to get his shot?

Seriously wait until Kostitsyn has played 20-30 NHL games. The first 30 straight games Kostitsyn plays (just like Lat just did) we'll compare their stats.

We'll see who's right.

Sometimes it seems people would rather not even do what's best for their team due to personal garbage.

Kostitsyn is NHL ready. He has been since last season and will continue to be.

Just like the QJMHL would've been a waste of time for Lat, at this point the AHL is a waste of time for Kosty. He needs the NHL to continue his developement.
Therefore they brought up Lat cause it would've been a waste of time. And with lack of depth on our 2nd and 4th lines, I see no valid reason to not bring up Lapierre AND Kosty.

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12-13-2006, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Kostitsyn404 View Post
That isn't true though. Lat > Kost. He was just given more chances.
Kost was given his opportunity on a level playing field in preseason and Lats beat him. That is why Lats is on the team, and Kost isn't.

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12-13-2006, 10:53 AM
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The guys calling to trade Kostitsyn did one thing

made me laugh .

loook at the kid since he was sent back down he has been a monster
and DEFENSIVLY also.

He is the next to come up if there is a injury to the top 6 and hopefully will see the Kostitsyn brothers and Grabovski playing together next season in Montreal .

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12-13-2006, 10:55 AM
  #11
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Wow, that's a long winded post to tell us that you don't want to change your user name if Kosts gets traded right? I agree with some of your points, but the fact is, we needed a big body in the line up, and Lats provides us with that. Kots has had opportunity, maybe not as much as you would like, to make the team and hasn't been able to do so. I would like for him to have a chance to play at least 10 games in a row this year, and give him an honest chance to show what he can do.

I have to throw in my pet peeve: GREAT.....used way too much on players that aren't GREAT. Lats isn't great....he's good....not GREAT. There are only a handfull of players in the league that are GREAT. Wheewww...glad to get that off my chest.

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12-13-2006, 10:56 AM
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2 points

-send lats back to junior threads were everywhere in his first 12 games (I have no idea what you mean by favoritism)... no one could stand the guy at the beginning of the year...

- kost was highly touted as a great offensive prospect, and has only NOW shown signs of that potential. A lot of people have been very disappointed with this guy, so I am sure if he is finally showing off some skills, not everyone would like to trade him away, only a select few that probably made the same posts regarding lats 6 weeks ago.

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12-13-2006, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Kost was given his opportunity on a level playing field in preseason and Lats beat him. That is why Lats is on the team, and Kost isn't.
It could be argued that Kost had as good a training camp as Lats this year. Kost was sent down because he could be recalled at any point this year. If Lats was sent down to juniors he would have been stuck there for the whole year. I think it's safe to say that if it would have been possible to send Lats to the AHL it is probable Kost would have stayed and Lats would have been sent down.

I really dont understand why anyone would need to put down either of them to promote their favorite. I find it sad to see some people basicaly hoping one propect fails...

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12-13-2006, 10:58 AM
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The tribe has spoken.

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12-13-2006, 11:00 AM
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It could be argued that Kost had as good a training camp as Lats this year. Kost was sent down because he could be recalled at any point this year. If Lats was sent down to juniors he would have been stuck there for the whole year. I think it's safe to say that if it would have been possible to send Lats to the AHL it is probable Kost would have stayed and Lats would have been sent down.

I really dont understand why anyone would need to put down either of them to promote their favorite. I find it sad to see some people basicaly hoping one propect fails...
Personally I thought Lats was better plus gave us something we lacked, a power forward. The Habs already have a few Kost types on the team. IMO the mistake, hindsight being 20/20, was signing Samsonov, not having Kost go to the minors in favour of Perez and Lats.

I like Kost and hope he does well, but given the makeup of our current roster, there really isn't a spot for him at the moment. He needs to get alot of playing time, and that will be best served with him in Hamilton.

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12-13-2006, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Kost was given his opportunity on a level playing field in preseason and Lats beat him. That is why Lats is on the team, and Kost isn't.
Okay. I'm sick of people using this as an excuse because CLEARLY you don't know how to read or didn't read if you are saying that. Because fact is the preseason doesn't mean anything. Really Kostitsyn is tearing it up right now on the Bulldogs. I don't see Lat tearing it up, I see <insert random person OTHER THAN RYDER> playing on Koivu's line. Really it's pathetic to use the preseason as an excuse.

Of course Lats is going to do well against mostly non-vets and rookies. That's what the preseason IS.

Really so what if he did well in the preseason, the bounces mean everything when your playing 7 games. Plus what did Lat do the first 10 games he played for us in the NON preseason? dick all.

Next point: All I said was Kostitsyn was never even given the chance, never said that Lat didn't deserve it. Even stated that it was smarter to bring Lats up first because of the QMJHL/AHL issue but that's not the point. The point is, by now Kostitsyn HAS earned his place on our team and now we have the space.

What is saying "Lats deserved it due to preseason blah blah blah" going to change? Your arguing a point thats long dead and overdone. I'm not even arguing whether or not it was the preseason that got Lat the spot over Kostitsyn. It clearly wasn't because that fact is arguable. It was because of the QMJHL issue that Lats was brought up (and because he did play well). It's not because Kosty wasn't good. It's because of a stupid technicality. Plus my thread was against people saying "Trade him".

Why would u even bring that up? It's just not a good point against my argument. So what if Lats was brought up first? That isn't my argument. My argument is that maybe if Kostitsyn was given a chance, you wouldn't be saying Trade him because you've never even really seen him play. He hasn't played enough in the NHL yet to judge. Therefore making the "Trade Kostitsyn" threads STUPID. And that was my main point. Saying Lat shud've been brought up first because of the AHL issue, that isn't biased. Saying it's because he's better then Kost is biased.

Why wasn't Latandresse picked 10th overall then? Why did scouts think Kostitsyn was better and worth drafting as our 1st pick?

Its biased to say Lat > Kost. It just isn't true. You can't say Kost > Lat or Lat > Kost because it's yet to be proven how well either of them can play at an NHL level.

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12-13-2006, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
Wow, that's a long winded post to tell us that you don't want to change your user name if Kosts gets traded right? I agree with some of your points, but the fact is, we needed a big body in the line up, and Lats provides us with that. Kots has had opportunity, maybe not as much as you would like, to make the team and hasn't been able to do so. I would like for him to have a chance to play at least 10 games in a row this year, and give him an honest chance to show what he can do.

I have to throw in my pet peeve: GREAT.....used way too much on players that aren't GREAT. Lats isn't great....he's good....not GREAT. There are only a handfull of players in the league that are GREAT. Wheewww...glad to get that off my chest.
Lat was given 10000x the opertunities Kostitsyn was.

Hell Lats was in the QMJHL and was brought directly to NHL

Kostitsyn is tearing it up in the AHL for his second year now and STILL waiting to be brought up even though our 2nd and 4th lines have been playing like CRAP.

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12-13-2006, 11:07 AM
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Start checking the stat sheet.Latendresse is good for 3 to 5 hits a night most nights on the first line .That is something we need and with him producing like he has been at 19 you cant ask for anything more as most kids are still in JR . We seen it now for sometime Latendresse's ability to work the boards down low and stick with the puck and the scary part is he is only going to get stronger which has me so excited when i watch him .

We needed Latendresse Big body style of game more so than Kosty style this season . Facts are Facts .

Kosty is salary cap friendly and next season he is a full timer no doubt about it .

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12-13-2006, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
It's called an opinion - look into it. This is an open forum.

My opinion is that he will not turn into anything more than a fringe NHL'er. Maybe I'll be wrong.

I don't think he has all the tools, physical and mental, to be a front line player.
Here's a tip for you. READ THE POST. I already stated that it's your opinion but that's not what I'm arguing is it? If you learn to read some time this week, read the part where I clearly state that it's thread about BIAS. Opinion or not.

And your opinion of Kosty could be right. Not saying your wrong. All I'm saying is he's done nothing to prove he isn't worthy because we're not even giving him a chance.

And in the AHL he's doing great, a league Lat never even played in due to the issue with his age.

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12-13-2006, 11:15 AM
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[QUOTE=Kostitsyn404;7343696]Basing your opinions on ******** bias. /QUOTE]

???

Welcome to the board.

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12-13-2006, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kostitsyn404 View Post
Okay. I'm sick of people using this as an excuse because CLEARLY you don't know how to read or didn't read if you are saying that. Because fact is the preseason doesn't mean anything. Really Kostitsyn is tearing it up right now on the Bulldogs. I don't see Lat tearing it up, I see <insert random person OTHER THAN RYDER> playing on Koivu's line. Really it's pathetic to use the preseason as an excuse.

Of course Lats is going to do well against mostly non-vets and rookies. That's what the preseason IS.
The preseason doesn't mean anything to established vets. It means a hell of alot to prospects.

Is it really necessary to be disrespectful because somebody has a difference of opinion?




Quote:
Really so what if he did well in the preseason, the bounces mean everything when your playing 7 games. Plus what did Lat do the first 10 games he played for us in the NON preseason? dick all.
He was learning the game as a 19 year old and playing on the 4th line.


Quote:
Next point: All I said was Kostitsyn was never even given the chance, never said that Lat didn't deserve it. Even stated that it was smarter to bring Lats up first because of the QMJHL/AHL issue but that's not the point. The point is, by now Kostitsyn HAS earned his place on our team and now we have the space.
Who's spot do you think he deserves? Yes he's better than our 4th liners, but isn't he better served getting tons of icetime in Hamilton, rather than getting 5mins/game on the 4th line.


Quote:
What is saying "Lats deserved it due to preseason blah blah blah" going to change? Your arguing a point thats long dead and overdone. I'm not even arguing whether or not it was the preseason that got Lat the spot over Kostitsyn. It clearly wasn't because that fact is arguable. It was because of the QMJHL issue that Lats was brought up (and because he did play well). It's not because Kosty wasn't good. It's because of a stupid technicality. Plus my thread was against people saying "Trade him".

Why would u even bring that up? It's just not a good point against my argument. So what if Lats was brought up first? That isn't my argument. My argument is that maybe if Kostitsyn was given a chance, you wouldn't be saying Trade him because you've never even really seen him play. He hasn't played enough in the NHL yet to judge. Therefore making the "Trade Kostitsyn" threads STUPID. And that was my main point. Saying Lat shud've been brought up first because of the AHL issue, that isn't biased. Saying it's because he's better then Kost is biased.
If we can improve the team, we should trade him. We have good winger depth, and if we can get a 2nd line center for him, trade him. It's called dealing from a position of strenght to address a team weakness.

Quote:
Why wasn't Latandresse picked 10th overall then? Why did scouts think Kostitsyn was better and worth drafting as our 1st pick?
Development curves are very different than draft position. If not, Chouinard would be a 1st liner in the NHL and Markov and Ryder would never had made the NHL.


Quote:
Its biased to say Lat > Kost. It just isn't true. You can't say Kost > Lat or Lat > Kost because it's yet to be proven how well either of them can play at an NHL level.
Well the proof is in the pudding. Carbo and the coaching staff believe it. Lats is in the NHL and playing on the 1st line and is scoring at almost a point a game since being put on the 1st line. Kost is in the minors.

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12-13-2006, 11:17 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by hab View Post
2 points

-send lats back to junior threads were everywhere in his first 12 games (I have no idea what you mean by favoritism)... no one could stand the guy at the beginning of the year...

- kost was highly touted as a great offensive prospect, and has only NOW shown signs of that potential. A lot of people have been very disappointed with this guy, so I am sure if he is finally showing off some skills, not everyone would like to trade him away, only a select few that probably made the same posts regarding lats 6 weeks ago.
Dissapointed? From what? Last season he came up for a sliver of games. He scored a goal on his first shot.

We've seen the guy on our team what... once this season?

Funny how people try to act unbiased but prove that they are. He isn't FINALLY showing his skills or he wouldn't have been picked 10th over all. How can ppl b dissapointed by a guy they never see play?(He never gets brought up EVER therefore never being given the chance to even prove he's good. And during the preseason he had an injury he was playing with and STILL was imo equal to Lat) Just because of some lucky bounces etc doesn't also make you a better player or a better team. I've seen some of the best teams being beaten by the worst, it's in the bounces. You can't just say that Lat is better or Lat proved he was better because of some 7game preseason crap where no good players are playing and the league is flooded with people who probably might not even make the NHL. Not only that but your compairing a guy who is at 100% to a guy with an injury.

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12-13-2006, 11:18 AM
  #23
kostitsyn1489
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I agree with most of the post... Kostitsyn was our best player last year playing with Bulis on the 2nd line. Yeah we had some injury but he did very good. No media ever say his name or whatever. He probably made the most spectacular play last season and no journalist say anything about this move. Lapierre who did good for a 4th liner yesterday and media made some super video to show how good he was. Why? Because he was quebecer. I dont say he didnt play good he did very well but stop promoting the guy at least...

Kostitsyn played with Kovalev and Samsonov... Is it a good thing? No. Both had problem like never before and they couldnt do anything good on the ice. And journalist blame this guy. As far as I know Latendresse was even worse with them. And saying that Latendresse was better then Kostitsyn in training camp is wrong. The only game RDS broadcasted this year Kostitsyn was better and RDS said he was invisible.

Anyway,

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12-13-2006, 11:20 AM
  #24
Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostitsyn404 View Post
Dissapointed? From what? Last season he came up for a sliver of games. He scored a goal on his first shot.

We've seen the guy on our team what... once this season?

Funny how people try to act unbiased but prove that they are. He isn't FINALLY showing his skills or he wouldn't have been picked 10th over all. How can ppl b dissapointed by a guy they never see play?(He never gets brought up EVER therefore never being given the chance to even prove he's good. And during the preseason he had an injury he was playing with and STILL was imo equal to Lat) Just because of some lucky bounces etc doesn't also make you a better player or a better team. I've seen some of the best teams being beaten by the worst, it's in the bounces. You can't just say that Lat is better or Lat proved he was better because of some 7game preseason crap where no good players are playing and the league is flooded with people who probably might not even make the NHL. Not only that but your compairing a guy who is at 100% to a guy with an injury.
Nobody is biased except you given your user name. The only bias we have is towards the Habs. We want them to do well and right now this team is better served with Kost in the minors because we have better wingers on the NHL team. Nuff said.

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12-13-2006, 11:24 AM
  #25
hab
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forgot one point... sorry

3rd point

even though I was born in Montreal, the habs have needed a top 6 power forward for years, and most people could not care less is he is from Montreal or Moscow(except maybe the media).

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