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Marcel Dionne - Playoff Legacy

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10-25-2013, 01:31 PM
  #26
Killion
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Marcel Dionne was the type of player if his team was down 5 to 0 he would be waiting at center ice for a cup to get an easy goal.Marcel cared for himself more than team that what a type of player he was.I would rather have Gilbert Perrault any time of the day.Many of his pts were when game was out of hand.The player I felt sorry for was Rogy Vachon who should be in Hall.I was at a game in 1981 at Pacific Gardens in Vancouver and throughout the game Dionne was cheating througout game waiting at center ice and the crowd was laughing at him and calliing him names.
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Just my opinion, but this is a load of crap.
Indeed so Mr.Bonvie. To suggest Marcel Dionne was essentially a Goal Suck is a rather odious statement to be making. The guy won the Lester Pearson Trophy twice over his 18yr career, a Trophy voted on by his peers, the players themselves as league MVP. They certainly wouldnt be voting for anyone who cruised high, refused to backcheck, a Glory Boy. He had the misfortune of being drafted by the Wings at a time in their history when you had the Darkness that was Harkness, a revolving door of players & coaches, 4yrs of nonsense endured before winding up in LA.... there too, lack of depth beyond really his line & Vachon who nightly stood on his head, travel at that time very hard on LA, very little practice time available to even work on anything. Then that fiasco with Pat Quinn over the Vancouver Canucks Coaching job, just on & on. Next stop NYC where so many of the greats wound down their career. Suffered from the "Lafleur Syndrome" throughout his career, from Pee Wee on up really. "Who was better, who would go #1 in their Draft Year"? and so on & so forth and that carried right on through the 70's.

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10-26-2013, 08:49 AM
  #27
TheDevilMadeMe
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This is a better place for the Dionne posts than in the current thread of the top centers project. Wish the link to HO's excellent article in the OP wasn't broken though.

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10-26-2013, 09:13 AM
  #28
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The teams had only two priorities when facing the kings in the playoffs, score 1+ goals and shadow Dionne like there is no tomorrow.

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10-26-2013, 09:25 AM
  #29
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Wonder how things turn out if Habs had drafted him? Because Dionne's career took off immediately while Lafleur stumbled his first 3-4 years.

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10-26-2013, 11:21 AM
  #30
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His subpar international play is more telling than his lack of PO success. He did not stand out even with strong teammates.

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10-26-2013, 12:14 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
His subpar international play is more telling than his lack of PO success. He did not stand out even with strong teammates.
When was he "subpar" on the international stage? Please explain. Which series' did you watch in which you judged his performance to be subpar?

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10-26-2013, 12:52 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Mats86 View Post
Wonder how things turn out if Habs had drafted him? Because Dionne's career took off immediately while Lafleur stumbled his first 3-4 years.
but would dionne have had to taken a backseat to lemaire (and lose defensive minutes to richard), the way young lafleur did to cournoyer? it was, after all, a scotty bowman team.

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10-26-2013, 01:05 PM
  #33
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Never saw the guy play but looking at his stats he has amazing consistency. PPG and usually much more for 1300 games. 700+ goals on some very crappy teams. Probably helped The Kings franchise stay in business. Very small guy(makes Gretzky look big) and as some have mentioned: Pearsons and Byngs. Probably top ten center all time for me solely based on stats( in this case i consider them very relevant)

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10-26-2013, 01:17 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
but would dionne have had to taken a backseat to lemaire (and lose defensive minutes to richard), the way young lafleur did to cournoyer? it was, after all, a scotty bowman team.
Dionne was given the opportunity right off the bat for sure. Maybe why Tom Lysiak or Denis Potvin didn't want to be drafted here?

But once Dionne got schooled he would of had benefit of great team around him and been more complete player. Always be a mystery but interesting to think how things would have turned out.

Lafleur how would he had turned out if Detriot drafted him? A terrible team and coach at the time.

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10-26-2013, 04:44 PM
  #35
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The teams had only two priorities when facing the kings in the playoffs, score 1+ goals and shadow Dionne like there is no tomorrow.
So teams focused on shutting down Dionne. How is that different from other players who were the lone superstars on their team like Perreault, Savard, or Stastny?

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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
When was he "subpar" on the international stage? Please explain. Which series' did you watch in which you judged his performance to be subpar?
For whatever reason, European posters really don't like Dionne and think that he struggled on the international stage. His on-paper resume there looks decent, not great.

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Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
Never saw the guy play but looking at his stats he has amazing consistency. PPG and usually much more for 1300 games. 700+ goals on some very crappy teams. Probably helped The Kings franchise stay in business. Very small guy(makes Gretzky look big) and as some have mentioned: Pearsons and Byngs. Probably top ten center all time for me solely based on stats( in this case i consider them very relevant)
His regular season stats aren't at issue here. The issue is that he was commonly outscored in the playoffs by his own teammates who he blew away in the regular season. And as the (now defunct) article from the OP showed, when he did get points in the playoffs, they were disproportionately "meaningless points."

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10-26-2013, 05:49 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
His subpar international play is more telling than his lack of PO success. He did not stand out even with strong teammates.
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
When was he "subpar" on the international stage? Please explain. Which series' did you watch in which you judged his performance to be subpar?
Exactly people forget that in the WC's he has to fly from LA to Europe and play right away.

so what if his stats don't look as great as guys already practicing with their line mates for a week plus before the tournament eh?

His playoff and international play are minor points in his career though.

Given the regular season metric where almost everyone plays the same number of games against more similar competition Dionne stands out as an all time great and really get undervalued when talked about with the all time greats.

Hopefully his name deservedly comes up in the next round of the top 60 centers project.

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10-26-2013, 05:59 PM
  #37
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So teams focused on shutting down Dionne. How is that different from other players who were the lone superstars on their team like Perreault, Savard, or Stastny?
Not so sure about this comment here.

Perreault had some highly touted players on his line in Martin and a reclamation project in Robert. The Sabres secondary scoring was always really good as well with 2 way guys like Luce and Ramsay.

If we look at each players supporting cast and makeup of their teams, Dionne would still get the least favorable position of the 4 guys and it's not even really all that close IMO.

Taylor did some fine work and Simmer was a great find for LA but neither of those guys do much of anything in the NHL without Dionne IMO.

Dionne's lack of playoff success was at the extreme end of poor, for a superstar sure, but even if you count playoffs as 25% of a players resume, which would be way too high IMO and not keeping with the standard given other players in previous projects his regular season prowess is simply outstanding, even among elite forwards IMO.

Hopefully for a guy with some really lousy support and a very balanced peak, prime and career (7 times top 5 in points), that his name comes up next round for discussion.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 10-26-2013 at 06:05 PM.
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10-26-2013, 06:16 PM
  #38
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[list] The teams L.A. were losing to were strong ones. In `76 and `77 it was the Bruins, one of the top clubs in league (in `77 Boston needed 6 games to beat L.A, but swept the Flyers in the semis). r.
Dionne was a beast in 77 series v. Boston. I attended 2 of those games in person and followed the series closely. In game 3, the Kings were down 6-5 with 2 minutes to play and Dionne flew down the right side and scored the tying goal. With the game seemingly headed to overtime, Stan Fuggin Jonathan of all people batted in a goal with 13 seconds to play and the Kings trailed the series 3-0.

They won Game 4, with Dionne tallying again, stole Game 5 in Boston with Marcel getting 2 assists and came back to LA for Game 6. The Forum was sold out and the Kings were given a 3 minute standing ovation before the game began. In typical Kings fashion, they promptly fell behind by 3 goals before the game was 10 minutes old, but then played the Bs even and were still down 3-0 entering the 3rd.

When the 3rd started, they were again greeted by a long loud standing ovation, and proceeded to pot 3 goals in succession to tie the game up, with Dionne getting 2 assists. The crowd was going bonkers, and the fans behind the net were loudly reminding Gerry Cheevers of his fondness for alcohol, and then Greg Sheppard ruined our dream of coming back from a 3-0 series deficit and a 3-0 game 6 deficit.

Marcel definitely had some disappointing playoff series, but not that year

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10-27-2013, 03:59 AM
  #39
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Exactly people forget that in the WC's he has to fly from LA to Europe and play right away.

so what if his stats don't look as great as guys already practicing with their line mates for a week plus before the tournament eh?
Maybe he mostly meant tournaments like the 1976 CC, 1979 Challenge Cup, and 1981 CC? i.e. "strong teammates"

I'd have to agree; he didn't stand out in (international) best-on-best competition - although I would like to see more games from the 1981 CC; namely, he was good with Gretzky and Lafleur in the round-robin game against USSR. Then again, it was a fairly meaningless game.

Dionne just wasn't a great tournament/series/playoff type of player?


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10-27-2013, 09:46 AM
  #40
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Is there any comparable player (offensive superstar) that played a long career with teams as bad as Dionne did?

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10-27-2013, 10:07 AM
  #41
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Is there any comparable player (offensive superstar) that played a long career with teams as bad as Dionne did?
Andy Bathgate maybe, but the trade to Toronto gave him the chance that Dionne never had.

From Dionne's era? Bernie Federko...Jean Pronovost...Garry Unger...Dennis Maruk? None of those players were in Dionne's league offensively though.

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10-27-2013, 10:19 AM
  #42
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BBB: look at his international stats. Just as mediocre as his playoff resume. The only time he performed up to his talent was in 76CC and Canada won. In most other tournaments he was mediocre. To me he is just not a "winner."

Flying to Europe to play in WC and being tired. Boo-hoo. People do it every year, with better results.

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10-27-2013, 11:41 AM
  #43
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Is there any comparable player (offensive superstar) that played a long career with teams as bad as Dionne did?
Pavel Bure? Although Bure was responsible for helping the Canucks reach the final in 1994. I'd say the post 1994 career of his isn't any worse than what Dionne saw.

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10-27-2013, 12:06 PM
  #44
vadim sharifijanov
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Is there any comparable player (offensive superstar) that played a long career with teams as bad as Dionne did?
i think the answer is phil housley

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10-28-2013, 10:24 AM
  #45
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Yes, I daresay, as limited as his resume is, Bure was a better PO performer than Dionne. His 94 Final and 98 Olympic runs were legendary, and nothing Dionne did comes close.

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10-28-2013, 11:29 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i think the answer is phil housley
Although not as pure an offensive player as Housley, I think career wise, I'd take the teams Housley was on, on average, over what Salming had.

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10-29-2013, 08:11 PM
  #47
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BBB: look at his international stats. Just as mediocre as his playoff resume. The only time he performed up to his talent was in 76CC and Canada won. In most other tournaments he was mediocre. To me he is just not a "winner."

Flying to Europe to play in WC and being tired. Boo-hoo. People do it every year, with better results.
Sure I guess it's the same as those early stars from Europe who couldn't adjust to the rigors of the North American lifestyle eh?

It's not like Marcel sucked internationally either. 37-21-11-32 at the WC isn't chicken***t.

Or 13-5-6-11 in CC play.

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10-30-2013, 06:46 AM
  #48
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Hi everyone - I've uploaded the essay again: http://www11.zippyshare.com/v/65898845/file.html

Note that the essay is five years old and hasn't been updated (hence the comment that nobody aside from Apps and Potvin have led their team to comeback from a 3-0 series deficit). The conclusion:

"...I think we can now make an argument against Dionne that’s more subtle than “he didn’t score as much as he did in the regular season”. First, Dionne and the Kings usually played very poorly in the first game of a series, often getting blown out. Winning the first game is especially important in a best-of-three/five, so a weak first game is especially dangerous. Second, Dionne played very poorly in elimination games. When the Kings needed a big effort, Dionne was usually (though not always) held off the scoresheet. Nine points in thirteen games is what you’d expect from Butch Goring, not Marcel Dionne. Finally, Dionne’s biggest problem was inconsistency. I found two or three times in his entire career when Dionne strung together two consecutive good games. The Kings often lost because their best player often disappeared
for half a series at a time."

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10-30-2013, 07:50 AM
  #49
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It's not like Marcel sucked internationally either. 37-21-11-32 at the WC isn't chicken***t.
Yeah, but when you take a little closer look at the box scores and Dionne's scoring...

In the 1978 WC, for example, he scored ZERO points in 2 games against USSR and in 2 games against Czechoslovakia, i.e. against the 2 best teams in the WC. And this was the "best forward" of the tournament, heh. http://www.internationalhockey.net/f...Czechoslovakia

Maybe he didn't suck internationally, but it's not like he was very good either.

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10-30-2013, 08:05 AM
  #50
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Yeah, but when you take a little closer look at the box scores and Dionne's scoring...

In the 1978 WC, for example, he scored ZERO points in 2 games against USSR and in 2 games against Czechoslovakia, i.e. against the 2 best teams in the WC. And this was the "best forward" of the tournament, heh. http://www.internationalhockey.net/f...Czechoslovakia

Maybe he didn't suck internationally, but it's not like he was very good either.
In fairness, alot of Canadians sucked in that tournament in the late 70's and early 80's, especially against those two teams.

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