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Central Hockey League - The Slow Spin Down the Bowl Continues

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Old
10-30-2013, 03:27 PM
  #51
CrazyEddie20
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Originally Posted by mfrerkes View Post
Perhaps Crazy Eddie could also provide an example where a player under AHL contract (who participated in an NHL training camp) was assigned to a SPHL team during the regular season.
Steve Macintyre was under contract to Hartford in 2003-04 and was assigned to Jacksonville in the WHA2 - predecessor to the SPHL, same level of play.

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10-30-2013, 03:31 PM
  #52
jabberoski
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Perhaps Crazy Eddie could also provide an example where a player under AHL contract (who participated in an NHL training camp) was assigned to a SPHL team during the regular season.
Mike Sellitto from Bridgeport to Louisiana in 2010-11 - http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...ns.html?pg=all

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BRIDGEPORT SOUND TIGERS Released F Patrick Asselin, F John-Scott Dickson, F Jordan Fulton, F Anton Kharin, F Brian McMillin, F Brian McGuirk, F Brandon Svendsen, D John Kivisto, D Jon Landry, D Mitch Versteeg and G Ryan Nie and returned them to Kalamazoo (ECHL). Released F Brady Leisenring, D Pierre-Olivier Beaulieu and G Marc-Antoine Gelinas and returned them to Odessa (CHL). Reassigned D Steve Tarasuk and D Corey Syvret to Kalamazoo and F Mike Sellitto to Louisiana (SPHL).

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10-30-2013, 03:39 PM
  #53
CrazyEddie20
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Originally Posted by jabberoski View Post
Mike Sellitto from Bridgeport to Louisiana in 2010-11 - http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...ns.html?pg=all
Ah yes, I had forgotten about that plug.

Also, Scott Darling appeared in training camp with Phoenix, Portland of the AHL, and Las Vegas of the ECHL before his antics landed him in Louisiana.

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10-30-2013, 04:40 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Fold or junior: Arizona.

Arizona has been announcing less than 3,000 per game for the last 4 years and makes no sense from an ECHL or SPHL geographical perspective. The air travel required in the ECHL wouldn't be viable for the Sundogs. Perhaps juniors could work, but I suspect geography is a killer for that as well.
Ticket prices may be a death knell for the Sundogs. Cheapest ticket in the house is $21 on game day. When I was a kid in Michigan I would go to Kalamazoo Wings games for $8. Granted, this was in the mid 90s and the prices today may reflect current trends. At that price I still think it's a hard sell in Prescott Valley.

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10-30-2013, 05:15 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by jabberoski View Post
Mike Sellitto from Bridgeport to Louisiana in 2010-11 - http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...ns.html?pg=all
Out of the hundreds and hundreds AHL-CHL-ECHL-SPHL transactions that happen every year, you can come up with exactly one in the past four seasons?

This is supposed to be proof-positive that the CHL is single-A hockey, despite the fact numerous CHL players are called up to AHL every season? If you were presenting this evidence at even a civil trial where the burden proof is much lower, you would lose the case.

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10-30-2013, 05:21 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Bondurant View Post
Ticket prices may be a death knell for the Sundogs. Cheapest ticket in the house is $21 on game day. When I was a kid in Michigan I would go to Kalamazoo Wings games for $8. Granted, this was in the mid 90s and the prices today may reflect current trends. At that price I still think it's a hard sell in Prescott Valley.
Arizona has never attracted big (or even average-sized) crowds, yet they seem to come back every season. The CHL's bizarre crony-style business model keeps franchises like this afloat in defiance of basic economic principles. Quad City only exists because the now-former league owner couldn't find someone outside the CHL to run the thing.

The Sundogs should have been dead a long time ago. In any other "normal" league they would have been. But, this is the CHL we're talking about, so normal rules don't apply.

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10-30-2013, 05:28 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie20 View Post
Scott Darling of the RiverKings was called up to Charlotte of the AHL during the 2010-11 season.
I'm being brief because I'm on an iPhone typing this. But I remember in 2011-12 alone there were like 50 call-ups from the CHL to the AHL, and those guys were there like a thousand days altogether.

So assuming 30 to 60 call-ups per year since 2010-11 ... I mean do the math.

I think we all agree it's not as good as the ECHL, but it's too far beyond the SPHL to be considered A level.

But none of us are experts. So for me, I think it's AA because the NHL and AHL treat the CHL more like the ECHL than they do the SPHL.

If you want think it's A level then that's cool. It's definitely in between the two established leagues so both sides of the debate have points that can be made.

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10-30-2013, 05:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Fold or junior: Arizona.

Arizona has been announcing less than 3,000 per game for the last 4 years and makes no sense from an ECHL or SPHL geographical perspective. The air travel required in the ECHL wouldn't be viable for the Sundogs. Perhaps juniors could work, but I suspect geography is a killer for that as well.
Geographically, Arizona is almost a perfect fit for the ECHL's Western Conference. Las Vegas is about four hours away, Ontario five and Bakersfield about six or seven. That's three road trips that would be easily made via bus. Even Utah/Stockton would only be about ten hours (manageable). That's over half the current conference.

It's everything else about the Sun Dogs that make them a bad fit for the ECHL. Geography is probably the one thing they have going for them.

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10-30-2013, 07:00 PM
  #59
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I'm being brief because I'm on an iPhone typing this. But I remember in 2011-12 alone there were like 50 call-ups from the CHL to the AHL, and those guys were there like a thousand days altogether.

So assuming 30 to 60 call-ups per year since 2010-11 ... I mean do the math.

I think we all agree it's not as good as the ECHL, but it's too far beyond the SPHL to be considered A level.

But none of us are experts. So for me, I think it's AA because the NHL and AHL treat the CHL more like the ECHL than they do the SPHL.

If you want think it's A level then that's cool. It's definitely in between the two established leagues so both sides of the debate have points that can be made.
Last season, the CHL had 45 call-ups, involving 30 players - http://centralhockeyleague.com/news/...rticle_id=9773 (side note - I love the headline of that release that says a "large number" of call ups. Not really a large number IMO).

Last season, the ECHL had 574 call-ups, involving 348 players (http://www.echl.com/ahl-champion-gra...layers-p184619). That number is noted about halfway through that article.

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10-30-2013, 09:04 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by jabberoski View Post
Last season, the CHL had 45 call-ups, involving 30 players - http://centralhockeyleague.com/news/...rticle_id=9773 (side note - I love the headline of that release that says a "large number" of call ups. Not really a large number IMO).
In recent seasons, the CHL has become rather adept at making unremarkable things seem like a big deal. I guess when your league is experiencing "significant shrinkage" then you have to find something to distract those fans who read press releases.

There's no argument that the ECHL is a better league, not just in overall talent, but in terms of economic stability. Still, the CHL did put 30 players into an AHL uniform last season. That's not an insignificant number for a 10-team league.

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10-30-2013, 10:47 PM
  #61
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Denver had 929 on Wednesday, which is nearly identical to their attendance last Saturday night.

The Cutthroats must be getting next to zero in walk-up sales now if their Weds and Sat numbers are matching up.

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10-30-2013, 11:10 PM
  #62
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It's a shame. Denver is 5-0-0. St. Charles had under 1,000 tonight as well.

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10-31-2013, 07:37 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie20 View Post
Scott Darling of the RiverKings was called up to Charlotte of the AHL during the 2010-11 season.
2010-2011 the River Kings were in the CHL. So no, not an example of SPHL-AHL.

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10-31-2013, 08:11 AM
  #64
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2010-2011 the River Kings were in the CHL. So no, not an example of SPHL-AHL.
Good eye, Gibbie! I forgot about the River Kings being in the CHL, even though they landed one of QC's faves (Patrick Levesque) during the 2010-11 season. That trade ticked off a bunch of fans, myself included. It was one of the reasons Frank Anzalone earned the title of Worst QC Coach Ever!

How are things in Evansville? Be grateful you got free of the Crumbling Hockey League! This season is going to be even more messed up than last year.

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10-31-2013, 08:15 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by starsfan24 View Post
It's a shame. Denver is 5-0-0. St. Charles had under 1,000 tonight as well.
Denver had two hatties in Wednesday's game! If nobody in Denver wants to watch the Cutthroats, could the Mallards at least swap them players? They can play our mediocre lineup in front of 900 fans, while their guys can win big in Moline, where something resembling a crowd shows up every now and then.

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10-31-2013, 08:48 AM
  #66
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Good eye, Gibbie! I forgot about the River Kings being in the CHL, even though they landed one of QC's faves (Patrick Levesque) during the 2010-11 season. That trade ticked off a bunch of fans, myself included. It was one of the reasons Frank Anzalone earned the title of Worst QC Coach Ever!

How are things in Evansville? Be grateful you got free of the Crumbling Hockey League! This season is going to be even more messed up than last year.
Things in Evansville are good. The transition to the ECHL was painful, last season was dreadful. If anyone doubts that the ECHL is a higher level of play than the CHL all they really need to do is look at the performance of some of the CHL stars when they moved to the ECHL. AA is not AA. Of course Evansville had other issues going on last year that impacted performance, but Ft. Wayne didn't fare much better, missing the playoffs for the first time in a long time.

But this is a new season. New coach, new staff, new attitude throughout the organization. The IceMen are 3 - 0 going into this weekend and off to their best start in franchise history. Jeff Pyle is one of the winningest coaches in the ECHL and he's brought an incredible energy and work ethic to the team. It looks to be a great year.

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10-31-2013, 09:18 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by mfrerkes View Post
In recent seasons, the CHL has become rather adept at making unremarkable things seem like a big deal. I guess when your league is experiencing "significant shrinkage" then you have to find something to distract those fans who read press releases.

There's no argument that the ECHL is a better league, not just in overall talent, but in terms of economic stability. Still, the CHL did put 30 players into an AHL uniform last season. That's not an insignificant number for a 10-team league.
Yes, but if you take out Allen and Denver (who was the sole AA affiliate of Colorado) there were only 22 transactions involving 13 players for the other 8 teams. Most of the Allen and Denver players were AHL guys for the most part anyway.

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10-31-2013, 09:57 AM
  #68
mfrerkes
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Yes, but if you take out Allen and Denver (who was the sole AA affiliate of Colorado) there were only 22 transactions involving 13 players for the other 8 teams. Most of the Allen and Denver players were AHL guys for the most part anyway.
Let's try this...

I'm not arguing the ECHL does not possess better overall AA talent. I've taken plenty of flack from my fellow CHL fans for suggesting that the ECHL is, in fact, noticeably better in that regard. The evidence that ECHL players tend to have more mobility towards the AHL is undeniable. There's no argument on that front.

Where I do stop short, though, is labeling the CHL as a single-A league. It is not. If it were, Denver and Allen wouldn't be a holding pen for all those AHL guys. No organization is going to drop that many AAA-level players down to a single-A league for an extensive period of time. It would hamper their ability to develop as players.

So, once again, the ECHL is clearly superior in terms of aggregate talent. However, the CHL is not the SPHL in terms of player talent. Can we agree on that much?


Last edited by mfrerkes: 10-31-2013 at 10:09 AM.
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10-31-2013, 10:07 AM
  #69
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But this is a new season. New coach, new staff, new attitude throughout the organization. The IceMen are 3 - 0 going into this weekend and off to their best start in franchise history. Jeff Pyle is one of the winningest coaches in the ECHL and he's brought an incredible energy and work ethic to the team. It looks to be a great year.
Good to hear! I wasn't sure what to make of Evansville's initial move from the AAHL to legitimate professional hockey, but you guys have sure made a favorable impression on a natural-born skeptic like myself. The fan support seems to be there, and it's exciting to see hockey expand (successfully) into new markets the way the Icemen have.

Back in 1995 when the Mallards brought pro hockey to the QC, it was absolutely wild. Unfortunately, the newness wore off for us and I'm not sure there's a workable plan to undo all the PR damage we've sustained since 2005. Glad to see your team is doing well, though.

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10-31-2013, 10:18 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by mfrerkes View Post
Let's try this...

I'm not arguing the ECHL does not possess better overall AA talent. I've taken plenty of flack from my fellow CHL fans for suggesting that the ECHL is, in fact, noticeably better in that regard. The evidence that ECHL players tend to have more mobility towards the AHL is undeniable. There's no argument on that front.

Where I do stop short, though, is labeling the CHL as a single-A league. It is not. If it were, Denver and Allen wouldn't be a holding pen for all those AHL guys. No organization is going to drop that many AAA-level players down to a single-A league for an extensive period of time. It would hamper their ability to develop as a player.

So, once again, the ECHL is clearly superior in terms of aggregate talent. However, the CHL is not the SPHL in terms of player talent. Can we agree on that much?
This is an absolutely perfect post to sum up the debate.

The AHL and NHL are recognizing and utilizing the CHL as a AA league.

We can all think whatever we want. It doesn't really matter.

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10-31-2013, 10:36 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by mfrerkes View Post
Let's try this...

I'm not arguing the ECHL does not possess better overall AA talent. I've taken plenty of flack from my fellow CHL fans for suggesting that the ECHL is, in fact, noticeably better in that regard. The evidence that ECHL players tend to have more mobility towards the AHL is undeniable. There's no argument on that front.

Where I do stop short, though, is labeling the CHL as a single-A league. It is not. If it were, Denver and Allen wouldn't be a holding pen for all those AHL guys. No organization is going to drop that many AAA-level players down to a single-A league for an extensive period of time. It would hamper their ability to develop as players.

So, once again, the ECHL is clearly superior in terms of aggregate talent. However, the CHL is not the SPHL in terms of player talent. Can we agree on that much?
Yep, we sure can. But I would also have to say the skill level of the CHL has dropped noticeibly in the last few years. I was watching a tape of an Eagles/Tarantulas game from about 10 years ago, and the speed and skill was quite a bit better than the Cutthroats/Rush game I attended last year.

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10-31-2013, 12:30 PM
  #72
CrazyEddie20
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2010-2011 the River Kings were in the CHL. So no, not an example of SPHL-AHL.
You are correct - it was the 2011-12 season that Darling was called up to the AHL from Mississippi.

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10-31-2013, 12:53 PM
  #73
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It's a shame. Denver is 5-0-0. St. Charles had under 1,000 tonight as well.
Not just the CHL having a little trouble. In the AHL last night four teams were below the 2,000 mark;
Adirondack - 1854
Hartford - 1857
Portland - 1314
Albany - 1535

Abbotsford and OKC, don't seem to get a good following as well.

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10-31-2013, 01:21 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Avsrule2002 View Post
Yep, we sure can. But I would also have to say the skill level of the CHL has dropped noticeibly in the last few years. I was watching a tape of an Eagles/Tarantulas game from about 10 years ago, and the speed and skill was quite a bit better than the Cutthroats/Rush game I attended last year.
We agree 100% on this as well. I expect the CHL's aggregate talent level to continue its decline due to the league's rapidly failing business model. However, as of right now, it is not in SPHL territory.

Somebody needs to shut the CHL down before good markets like Rapid City are damaged irreparably. I hope this ownership change last season (where the team owners bought the CHL) leads to a break-up of this hazardous situation. You can't expect franchises like Missouri and Wichita to underwrite all the dead weight new CHL markets like Saint Charles and Denver have been producing.

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10-31-2013, 01:29 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by SenorChifles View Post
Not just the CHL having a little trouble. In the AHL last night four teams were below the 2,000 mark;
Adirondack - 1854
Hartford - 1857
Portland - 1314
Albany - 1535

Abbotsford and OKC, don't seem to get a good following as well.
I'm willing to bet all of the above teams can top 1000 on a Saturday night. Denver couldn't most recently. I'm starting to wonder if the Chill are sliding towards perpetual sub-1000 crowds as well.

Abbotsford is a joke. That whole thing was another Calgary Flames-inspired disaster, just like Omaha and QC were before it. Those of us in QC who lost the Flames to Abbotsford could see this train wreck coming from a mile away. The travel costs alone were ridiculous.

Oklahoma City should be looking to relocate any day now. It isn't working there. I think the NBA team is (pardon the expression) stealing all the thunder during the fall and winter months. Their presence leaves very little oxygen for the Barons.

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