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Talk Slowly and Use Small Words, its the Michael Del Zotto Thread

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Old
10-30-2013, 12:16 PM
  #176
offdacrossbar
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
If I'm the GM, there's no way I'm moving Del Zotto for a bunch of reasons:

1.) He's, what, 23? Most D hit their prime late 20's
2.) He's under contract and a pending RFA (so, at least two more years at terms that are more favorable to the NYR)
3.) He's certainly not playing his best = trade value is lower
4.) If the NYR are trading a D, it should be Danny G or Anton because the are both pending UFA's and could play for any team in the league and bring back a decent return.

I'm not arguing the sentiment that he hasn't been great, but he's not the guy I'd be looking to move if I expected to get value back.
dont wait too long on mdz. hes still a guy who gm's would like to believe just needs a change of scenery.

girardi will bring a nice return to a contender if we fall out.

stralzie, whom i love, same but less of a return

delzaster is the guy who can be part of a deal for an established scorer or a young guy like a yak.

if you take him out of our lineup, give his minutes to stralzie and moore, and add a falk to the 3rd pair, we arent much worse really.

hes the guy who needs to go.

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10-30-2013, 12:19 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
dont wait too long on mdz. hes still a guy who gm's would like to believe just needs a change of scenery.

girardi will bring a nice return to a contender if we fall out.

stralzie, whom i love, same but less of a return

delzaster is the guy who can be part of a deal for an established scorer or a young guy like a yak.

if you take him out of our lineup, give his minutes to stralzie and moore, and add a falk to the 3rd pair, we arent much worse really.

hes the guy who needs to go.
I think the Oilers would prefer Girardi. They need grit throughout their lineup. Let's hope Howson is whispering in MacT's ear. Trading DZ makes absolute sense, especially since we have Falk, and Johnson playing well in Hartford.

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10-30-2013, 12:39 PM
  #178
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I think the Oilers would prefer Girardi. They need grit throughout their lineup. Let's hope Howson is whispering in MacT's ear. Trading DZ makes absolute sense, especially since we have Falk, and Johnson playing well in Hartford.
true.

if one looks at our line up with and without del zotto, it isnt hard to see us being as/or more competitive without him if we add a young guy like a nail yakupov.

i do think our defense is strong enough to allow for falk to grab 3rd pair minutes. if you remove dan girardi and his key minutes, we are weaker defensively for sure.

were we to move both of them to the oil ( and i would do that) in a deal around yakupov, i think we have to get back a dman in return.

i do believe the yak rumurs to be legit. edmonton needs to shake things up and would love to have that pair on their blue line. we need/would love a potential superstar scorer like yakupov on broadway.

look at their forwards, eberle is a future captain. hall is a stud and RNH is a future 1c and wont be moved. yak is the guy who will be moved.

i see something here that could well happen.

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10-30-2013, 12:52 PM
  #179
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I think MDZ needs to go back to playing on his strong side.

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10-30-2013, 01:00 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
true.

if one looks at our line up with and without del zotto, it isnt hard to see us being as/or more competitive without him if we add a young guy like a nail yakupov.

i do think our defense is strong enough to allow for falk to grab 3rd pair minutes. if you remove dan girardi and his key minutes, we are weaker defensively for sure.

were we to move both of them to the oil ( and i would do that) in a deal around yakupov, i think we have to get back a dman in return.

i do believe the yak rumurs to be legit. edmonton needs to shake things up and would love to have that pair on their blue line. we need/would love a potential superstar scorer like yakupov on broadway.

look at their forwards, eberle is a future captain. hall is a stud and RNH is a future 1c and wont be moved. yak is the guy who will be moved.

i see something here that could well happen.
I'd hate to give up Girardi but that's a deal I would make. Actually I think the Oilers might want a bit more than just Girardi and Del Zotto and it would be helpful for us to get back a right side guy. I'm trying to think if the Rangers have ever had such a young stud forward of Yakupov's capabilities. Going back a lot of years--Rick Middleton? This is a move (moving Girardi) that could be seen to signal that the Rangers are willing to concede this year to the history books for a better future. The absence of Girardi would leave a gaping hole on the right side. The Rangers don't usually concede years. They like to pretend that every year they can win the Cup. OTOH Girardi's potentially UFA in July and it will cost big $ to keep him.

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10-30-2013, 01:01 PM
  #181
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I think MDZ needs to go back to playing on his strong side.
Agree.

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10-30-2013, 03:32 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
I think MDZ needs to go back to playing on his strong side.
Agree 100%. He's proven there, and Moore is a bigger athlete and better skater that can cover much more ice with his back to the play than DZ can.

Moore also has the better shot, and DZ is the better passer, so DZ slipping one timers to Moore is more deadly than DZ not getting his shot through on net.

If DZ-Moore become an offensive pair, then I think they can help each other cash out on their contracts as the cap goes up towards $80M.

Hell I'd like to see Staal with a legit righthanded defensemen that can play faster and throw hits to deter guys from hitting Marc Staal who everyone knows has had to deal with head and facial injuries the last couple of years.

Straalsy's been more than a solid trooper, but I think adding a guy with a few more elements to his game can help elevate Staal's play. Thinking of a guy like Robidas.

Good veteran presence, former all-star, physical, heavy right handed shot from the point. Brings some grit and experience out there. He won't hurt guys with his fists, but the dude hits like a truck. He's a competitor and a rental.

If Stralman is going to price himself out, and that is something that he very may well do because he's shown that he can play 19-20 min a night in the NHL, why not pull the trigger on a Stralman plus package for Robidas?

Get an upgrade, guy is a UFA at season's end, brings some necessary elements to the back end, and solidifies the rotations a bit at little risk. Well that is if Robidas waves his no-trade.

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10-30-2013, 03:38 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
I think MDZ needs to go back to playing on his strong side.
I like a lot of people think he will be moved. I am ok if its for a top 4 RD.

LD is set for a while with McD, Staal, Moore assuming all resign. McD already is.

Girardi is going down hill and fast so if a deal comes up like DZ and Girardi for a top 6 Winger and top 4 RD I think they should really consider it.

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10-30-2013, 04:30 PM
  #185
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I don't think G is going downhill... Guy still has alot left in the tank. I'm all for keeping him at the right price... OR, if we fall out of contention, trade him at the deadline, then resign him as a UFA. We get a nice return, and additional pieces to trade next offseason, and still end up with G (ideal, personally).

There is no reason to EVER move Staal. I don't care what kind of return, he is one of 3 guys that we have that is mobile on the puck (along with McD and J Moore). John Moore still needs some maturation, and is not ready for full time duties on the 1st pairing.

McD is obviously sticking

Falk is replaceable, but he's cheap and gritty. Something we lack right now...

Which pretty much leaves you with Stralman and MDZ to move. BUT, Stralman is young, cheap on the books, and personally much less of a liability compared to our lower pairing D's...
That pretty much leaves you with MDZ, who is basically going to ask for a raise after this season, which in my opinion he does NOT deserve...

So rid the guy at the deadline and get something for him. It only makes sense.

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10-30-2013, 04:43 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
If I'm the GM, there's no way I'm moving Del Zotto for a bunch of reasons:

1.) He's, what, 23? Most D hit their prime late 20's
2.) He's under contract and a pending RFA (so, at least two more years at terms that are more favorable to the NYR)
3.) He's certainly not playing his best = trade value is lower
4.) If the NYR are trading a D, it should be Danny G or Anton because the are both pending UFA's and could play for any team in the league and bring back a decent return.

I'm not arguing the sentiment that he hasn't been great, but he's not the guy I'd be looking to move if I expected to get value back.
I understand what you're saying. Now, allow me to retort:

1) He is 23. Bu it is also his fifth season in the league. And I'm not really sure what aspect of the game he's improved upon season after season. Obviously his defensive play is better than his rookie year but I'm not sure that he's not at his ceiling.
2) At some point the Ranger are going to have to make decision with their defensemen.
3) His trade value might be low but I don't know if he was ever the kind of player who was going to be the center piece for a deal that would bring in a major upgrade somewhere else.
4) He's going to have more value than Stralman because he's better and controllable.

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10-30-2013, 04:59 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
I think MDZ needs to go back to playing on his strong side.
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Agree.
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Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
Agree 100%. He's proven there, and Moore is a bigger athlete and better skater that can cover much more ice with his back to the play than DZ can.

Moore also has the better shot, and DZ is the better passer, so DZ slipping one timers to Moore is more deadly than DZ not getting his shot through on net.

If DZ-Moore become an offensive pair, then I think they can help each other cash out on their contracts as the cap goes up towards $80M.

Hell I'd like to see Staal with a legit righthanded defensemen that can play faster and throw hits to deter guys from hitting Marc Staal who everyone knows has had to deal with head and facial injuries the last couple of years.

Straalsy's been more than a solid trooper, but I think adding a guy with a few more elements to his game can help elevate Staal's play. Thinking of a guy like Robidas.

Good veteran presence, former all-star, physical, heavy right handed shot from the point. Brings some grit and experience out there. He won't hurt guys with his fists, but the dude hits like a truck. He's a competitor and a rental.

If Stralman is going to price himself out, and that is something that he very may well do because he's shown that he can play 19-20 min a night in the NHL, why not pull the trigger on a Stralman plus package for Robidas?

Get an upgrade, guy is a UFA at season's end, brings some necessary elements to the back end, and solidifies the rotations a bit at little risk. Well that is if Robidas waves his no-trade.
I could swear we've seen AV try it a couple of times. There have been at least a couple of shifts where I've seen him on the left and Moore, I think, on the right. I thought I even saw Staal on the right with MDZ on the left once, although that might have been due to one or the other getting caught during a line change.

And like magic - poof - he was back to the confident puck rusher we all loved two years back, however briefly. It is amazing what a difference it makes for him.

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Old
10-30-2013, 05:59 PM
  #188
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I could swear we've seen AV try it a couple of times. There have been at least a couple of shifts where I've seen him on the left and Moore, I think, on the right. I thought I even saw Staal on the right with MDZ on the left once, although that might have been due to one or the other getting caught during a line change.

And like magic - poof - he was back to the confident puck rusher we all loved two years back, however briefly. It is amazing what a difference it makes for him.
All in all though I don't think he's ever going to be a 50 point a season player for the Rangers which was what they need from someone out of their defense. If he had a more powerful and accurate shot he might be but he's no Erik Karlsson and he's no PK Subban and if given the choice I'd even take John Carlson over him--just because Carlson will be in the neighborhood of offensive production and he's a bigger and better player in practically everything else.

People ***** all the time about the Pwp--but usually the good Pwps have some guy (or two) patrolling the points that can make plays but also really let loose with a bomb if they get room and a lane. Del Zotto can make plays but everyone knows they can cheat with him because he doesn't have a really good shot. 37 points in his rookie year and his high is 41--this year he's played 9 games has one assist--nothing on the pwp. Offense is supposed to be his edge over the rest of the d-men. He's not on the same level with most of them defensively and that's not likely to change. I'd move him if there were a good deal.

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10-30-2013, 06:04 PM
  #189
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His game has gone into the toilet since Prust left.

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10-30-2013, 06:11 PM
  #190
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the entire team has played **** besides the last 3 games and the kings game (everyone was healthy) but honestly how can you say DZ has been ******.. guy has been solid defensively the last few games and is playing fine on his off side.. obviously his norm side would be better to produce pts.. im not saying he shouldnt be traded bc i think he will be odd man out, but the criticism is not called for..

YOU guys are out of your mind if you move girardi.. hes not going down hill fast.. hes got miles but hes a solid dman that what we need.. he will be a lifer ranger and resigned

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10-30-2013, 06:12 PM
  #191
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the entire team has played **** besides the last 3 games and the kings game (everyone was healthy) but honestly how can you say DZ has been ******.. guy has been solid defensively the last few games and is playing fine on his off side.. obviously his norm side would be better to produce pts.. im not saying he shouldnt be traded bc i think he will be odd man out, but the criticism is not called for..

YOU guys are out of your mind if you move girardi.. hes not going down hill fast.. hes got miles but hes a solid dman that what we need.. he will be a lifer ranger and resigned
Because he has been. It's not like I want him to suck, I want him to do well.

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10-30-2013, 08:25 PM
  #192
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Ray Ferraro was discussing a D moving to the off side on the TSN broadcast of Leafs@Flames. The D has to be mobile to create space for himself and mobile enough to turn. The Leafs have Gardiner and the Flames have Brodie playing RD when both of them are lefties. Both of them are mobile. Gardiner played right defense at Wisconsin. That is not new to him.

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10-30-2013, 08:44 PM
  #193
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He isn't been played on his strong side?

le why

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10-30-2013, 08:49 PM
  #194
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He isn't been played on his strong side?

le why
Staal: Lefty
McDonagh: Lefty
Moore: Lefty
MDZ: Lefty
Falk: Lefty
Girardi: Righty
Stralman: Righty

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10-30-2013, 11:10 PM
  #195
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Hard to blame anyone on the ice for the second goal against, but it sure wasn't Marc Staal flailing like a ding dong as the puck bounced off him and in the net.
No, it was Marc Staal on the right side (why?) giving Regin too much time to put a shot towards goal. The first goal against was Marc Staal coughing up the puck and then borderline giving up on the play instead of busting his ass to get it back.

Marc Staal has been directly responsible for a LOT more goals against this season than any other Rangers defenseman, and for a guy whose best attribute is his defense, that's alarming. I don't know if it's his eye, adjusting to playing with a visor or just a rough start, but something is wrong there.


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Okay great he gets the +1 on the same goal he assisted on so his stat line looks nice on paper because of one good shift in one game. In reality for most nights this season he has shown that his confidence level is zero and he cannot handle passes at the blueline. His defense is suspect as well but considering the hopes people have for MDZ offensively his defensive play is largely irrelevant. As of right now the only reason he probably hasn't been traded or sat is because there is absolutely no one who can eat up his, or someone elses who replaces his, minutes. He is still useful in a defensive roll and until that ceases or they can replace that, he stays. His value is in being offensively minded and gifted, if he cannot deliver on that his usefulness to the organization is very little. He has more value as a turn around project who needs a change of scenery to another team, than as simply a top4 D who cannot overcome his mental issues to the Rangers.
He had more than one good shift. His defense has been fine this season. His offense has struggled, but again--he's a playmaker, and we currently don't have a ton of finishers healthy on this team right now. He doesn't need a change of scenery, unless that new scenery is on the left side of a pairing (again--he's looked his best, for prolonged stretches of time, playing a top 4 LD role filling in for Staal. He has never looked as good on the right side).

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Move Staal before DZ? Maybe if they were going to rebuild, but in that scenario move both. The idea of moving Staal over DZ is a rather questionable stance to take.
A year ago I would have said the same thing. I've always thought of Staal as our best defenseman. Before the eye injury, he even looked like he was finally putting his offense together. I'm hoping it's just some minor stuff, but something is very different this season. He's just been horrid. He has literally been our worst defenseman, and it's not particularly close.

I'm not generally one to hit the panic button, but between the eye injury, the rough start to this season, the talk that he might want to leave to go play with his brothers, etc etc etc--I would be VERY hesitant to move MDZ on the basis of "well we have McD and Staal." McD, Girardi (for the most part) have both come around after a rough start. Staal still hasn't. It makes me nervous. If we could spin Staal off into a top 4 RD or a young forward and a good pick, I would actually have to think about it (whereas in the past it would have been a non-starter).

Frankly, I would call up Carolina and see if they would be interested in a Staal deal involving Lindholm (preferred) or Tlusty and a 2015 1st.

Then see if we could move Girardi to either Toronto (Gardiner + 2015 1st) or Colorado (Barrie + 2015 1st).

We don't lose much in the grand scheme of things. I think McI will be ready at some point this season, so we would still have a solid (and more balanced) D-core, while adding a piece or two to the offense and stocking up for what looks to be a great draft (2015).

The only problem with that would be that, at least until McI is ready, we wouldn't really have a RD to be part of a shutdown pair like AV likes to use. We could always wait until the deadline on the Girardi deal to see if McI is ready.

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10-30-2013, 11:21 PM
  #196
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Because he has been. It's not like I want him to suck, I want him to do well.
No, he hasn't been. I can't speak to what you want or don't want, but there are clearly people here who refuse to give him credit for anything (see earlier in the thread, where someone threw out the idea that the scoring play MDZ started was nothing more than dumb luck) while also blaming him whether it was his fault or not (example--a couple of games ago, DZ was at the right point on the PP and, I think it was Richards tried a patented cutesy no look pass that went right into DZ's skates. Sure enough, there were immediately 6 or 7 posts in the GDT *****ing about Del Zotto's inability to keep the puck in the zone. It was a lousy pass into his skates, but there is a crew here who just waits to pounce on anything).

Take the Isles game as a prime example. In a 2 minute span, I saw McD (and this is not an attack on him. With Staal's current problems, I think it's pretty obvious that McD is our best defender) break his stick, fail to keep the puck in the zone on a PP, miss the net on a point shot, and have a shot go into the shins of an Isles player. If DZ had done ANY of those things, the board would have 54 threads about it for a week. McD did all four in the span of a couple minutes, and there was nothing. Many of the "glaring deficiencies" in DZ's game are things that ALL defensemen do--they've just become part of the "DZ sucks talking points" that obsess some posters on this board.

I've said it before--this board has a perverse need to hate one (or more) of our own players. It's often irrational, it leads to a narrative that rarely matches the reality, and (when that player DOES leave), it becomes plain as day that this board was incorrect about said player. At some point, we need to admit that when a player leaves here and "plays better" on another team, it's not because we're cursed--it's that we were stupid and were wrong about the player from the start.

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10-30-2013, 11:37 PM
  #197
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Every time we're on the powerplay and I see the puck heading towards him on the blue line, I feel myself getting some sort of disease

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10-31-2013, 12:14 AM
  #198
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No, he hasn't been. I can't speak to what you want or don't want, but there are clearly people here who refuse to give him credit for anything (see earlier in the thread, where someone threw out the idea that the scoring play MDZ started was nothing more than dumb luck) while also blaming him whether it was his fault or not (example--a couple of games ago, DZ was at the right point on the PP and, I think it was Richards tried a patented cutesy no look pass that went right into DZ's skates. Sure enough, there were immediately 6 or 7 posts in the GDT *****ing about Del Zotto's inability to keep the puck in the zone. It was a lousy pass into his skates, but there is a crew here who just waits to pounce on anything).

Take the Isles game as a prime example. In a 2 minute span, I saw McD (and this is not an attack on him. With Staal's current problems, I think it's pretty obvious that McD is our best defender) break his stick, fail to keep the puck in the zone on a PP, miss the net on a point shot, and have a shot go into the shins of an Isles player. If DZ had done ANY of those things, the board would have 54 threads about it for a week. McD did all four in the span of a couple minutes, and there was nothing. Many of the "glaring deficiencies" in DZ's game are things that ALL defensemen do--they've just become part of the "DZ sucks talking points" that obsess some posters on this board.

I've said it before--this board has a perverse need to hate one (or more) of our own players. It's often irrational, it leads to a narrative that rarely matches the reality, and (when that player DOES leave), it becomes plain as day that this board was incorrect about said player. At some point, we need to admit that when a player leaves here and "plays better" on another team, it's not because we're cursed--it's that we were stupid and were wrong about the player from the start.
Wonder what would be the reaction if DZ had done this?


That turnover led directly to the 2nd goal.

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Old
10-31-2013, 12:25 AM
  #199
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Wonder what would be the reaction if DZ had done this?


That turnover led directly to the 2nd goal.
The reaction to THAT should be the same for anyone. Jesus christ.

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10-31-2013, 12:47 AM
  #200
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The reaction to THAT should be the same for anyone. Jesus christ.
In Moore's defense, everyone left him hanging out to dry, as he had to then dangle between 3 players with a puck

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