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Trotz next to be fired???

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Old
10-31-2013, 12:16 PM
  #51
Bushleaguer
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looooong time lurker on these boards, finally got around to registering so i could join in the fun.

I think what it comes down to from my perspective is that there is a growing segment of the fanbase that is tired of "Predators Hockey", and wants a change. I gave up my season tickets prior to last season primarily for that reason. I feel like i know the ceiling for Trotz/Poile, and i want more than what they are capable of providing. I've seen enough to come to the conclusion we'll never be a team that goes deep into the playoffs with Trotz and Poile at the helm. I'm ready to give someone else a chance. Could it turn out worse? Absolutely, but I'm not content with the status quo, so that's a risk I'm hugely in favor of taking.

At the risk of going off topic, Iron Duke - how did you end up becoming a Preds fan? I was born and raised in San Dimas, moved to Nashville for work in 2001 and slowly shifted allegiances from the Kings to the Preds. Took a couple of years, but eventually i shifted over 100%.

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10-31-2013, 12:33 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Bushleaguer View Post
looooong time lurker on these boards, finally got around to registering so i could join in the fun.

I think what it comes down to from my perspective is that there is a growing segment of the fanbase that is tired of "Predators Hockey", and wants a change. I gave up my season tickets prior to last season primarily for that reason. I feel like i know the ceiling for Trotz/Poile, and i want more than what they are capable of providing. I've seen enough to come to the conclusion we'll never be a team that goes deep into the playoffs with Trotz and Poile at the helm. I'm ready to give someone else a chance. Could it turn out worse? Absolutely, but I'm not content with the status quo, so that's a risk I'm hugely in favor of taking.

At the risk of going off topic, Iron Duke - how did you end up becoming a Preds fan? I was born and raised in San Dimas, moved to Nashville for work in 2001 and slowly shifted allegiances from the Kings to the Preds. Took a couple of years, but eventually i shifted over 100%.
Fellow lurker here as well heh. I too feel like the ceiling has been reached although moreso with Trotz than Poile. In my opinion this team under him will never see the Cup finals. I really hope he proves me wrong.

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10-31-2013, 01:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Bushleaguer View Post
looooong time lurker on these boards, finally got around to registering so i could join in the fun.

I think what it comes down to from my perspective is that there is a growing segment of the fanbase that is tired of "Predators Hockey", and wants a change. I gave up my season tickets prior to last season primarily for that reason. I feel like i know the ceiling for Trotz/Poile, and i want more than what they are capable of providing. I've seen enough to come to the conclusion we'll never be a team that goes deep into the playoffs with Trotz and Poile at the helm. I'm ready to give someone else a chance. Could it turn out worse? Absolutely, but I'm not content with the status quo, so that's a risk I'm hugely in favor of taking.

At the risk of going off topic, Iron Duke - how did you end up becoming a Preds fan? I was born and raised in San Dimas, moved to Nashville for work in 2001 and slowly shifted allegiances from the Kings to the Preds. Took a couple of years, but eventually i shifted over 100%.
Grew up as a diehard Kings fan. Gradually started following more and more teams, and due to the character and work ethic of the Preds ("Trotz hockey" being part of it), and my affection for the South (History/Civil War nerd...mind you, I don't mean that in a pro-slavery/Lost Cause sort of way ), they became one of the my staple teams. After the Dave Taylor/Andy Murray firings, Lombardi cleaning house, and the Kings showing no real interest in competing, my love of that org waned. I still follow and support them and the Ducks, but the Preds are my team of choice.

I'm afraid I already know the answer, but how do you like Nashville compared to So Cal?

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10-31-2013, 02:43 PM
  #54
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My problem with Trotz and the "Trotz way" is that if you look back at the past several years SC Champions, they all have had superior forward play that we do not have. We had it two yrs ago for the playoffs with ME/AK/SK/AR but fizzled out against the Coyotes. We currently do not have that caliber forward. We are hoping that CW/CS/FF/GB can come into their own and be the superior forward we so desperately need, only time will tell. But you have to give them the other players around them to help them succeed, not succeed despite who you pair them with.

Our Defense is almost as good and goaltending (with Rinne) is the same. JMO

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10-31-2013, 03:32 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
I'm afraid I already know the answer, but how do you like Nashville compared to So Cal?
Never expected to find someone from San Dimas pulling for the Preds, but I totally get how that happened. I was 11 when Gretzky came to LA, which is pretty much to the day when i started caring about hockey. I know how hard it was to stay excited about the Kings though. So happy Luc finally got a Cup with them though.

Nashville compared to So Cal? I LOVE it here. Music and the outdoors are two of my biggest passions, and Nashville (and pretty much all of TN) really excels at both. It's so much easier to get tickets to concerts here than LA, and this is a much more musically diverse city than it gets credit for. I do a lot of backpacking also, and TN has some incredible state parks to explore. I may have had a fear that I'd be bored living here after moving from So Cal, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. Every friend I've had come visit from back home has wanted to pack up and move here. It's a very welcoming town. I've also been to probably 10 different NHL arenas, and none of them have compared to the atmosphere at Bridgestone. Not to mention the Preds have a much more intelligent fanbase than they get credit for. Sure there are some rednecks that show up, but I'm constantly impressed at the level of hockey knowledge our fanbase has.

In closing, as a fellow native of San Dimas, pack up and move out here. You won't regret it! I have the water tanks tattooed on my forearm, that's good enough for me

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10-31-2013, 06:40 PM
  #56
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I'm not happy with mediocrity. The Preds this year are mediocre. But I'm not ready to pull the trigger on Trotz just yet. Here's why...

I'm a UT grad and diehard Vols football fan. After winning the National Championship in 98, 8-4 seasons were unacceptable. I wanted Fulmer gone. And then he was. Five years later, Vol fans have endured 4 coaches and the worst 3 years in over 100 years of football.

There are no guarantees that the next coach will exceed what Trotz has accomplished. And if the next guy doesn't at least meet the success of Trotz, you probably loose your team to another city. Barely making the playoffs with Trotz is far better than watching the Hamilton/Kansas City/Seattle Preds.

Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it.

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11-01-2013, 07:39 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by WartracePred View Post
I'm not happy with mediocrity. The Preds this year are mediocre. But I'm not ready to pull the trigger on Trotz just yet. Here's why...

I'm a UT grad and diehard Vols football fan. After winning the National Championship in 98, 8-4 seasons were unacceptable. I wanted Fulmer gone. And then he was. Five years later, Vol fans have endured 4 coaches and the worst 3 years in over 100 years of football.

There are no guarantees that the next coach will exceed what Trotz has accomplished. And if the next guy doesn't at least meet the success of Trotz, you probably loose your team to another city. Barely making the playoffs with Trotz is far better than watching the Hamilton/Kansas City/Seattle Preds.

Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
Fulmer won a championship. Barry Trotz has won jack. He is never going to lead this team to a Cup. It is time for a change, in my opinion. And you know what, the next coach could be terrible. Or he could be great and get these forwards playing to their real potential. But if you as a Preds fan or basing your loyalty to the team on whether Barry Trotz is fired or not, wow.

It's one thing if you support Trotz and point to his track record of getting the team into the playoffs. That is legit. But if you are against making a change because you think the fan base is so poor here that it will cause the team to up and MOVE, then I honestly don't know what to say to you.

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11-01-2013, 09:41 PM
  #58
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And you know what, the next coach could be terrible. Or he could be great and get these forwards playing to their real potential.
What is the real potential of these forwards?

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11-01-2013, 09:55 PM
  #59
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What is the real potential of these forwards?
I'm waiting on this answer to.

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11-01-2013, 10:05 PM
  #60
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Probably not much higher than they are now, honestly. I just am tired of Trotz's mind games, taking numbers, over emphasis on defense and trying not to lose. I'm tired of Poile's inability to draft a true elite forward. He went with Pickard when Eberle was sitting right there! And overpaying for Hendricks is just not justified at all.

In hindsight, maybe they should have let some of the kids stay up, Beck and Watson for example, and let them start learning and growing. Building a good core instead of trying to eke out wins with a bunch of 3rd and fourth liners.

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11-01-2013, 10:09 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
What is the real potential of these forwards?
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Originally Posted by Smashville615 View Post
I'm waiting on this answer to.
I'm not in the anti-Trotz crowd, but...

Realistically, I'd guess:

-One winger with top-line potential (though I'm guessing on the low end ~50-60 points) who's not ready for the NHL (Forsberg)
-One winger with top-line upside who is more likely a second liner (Wilson)
-Two second line wingers (Hornqvist/Smith)
-Two 2nd/3rd line tweener wingers (Stalberg/Bourque)
-Three 2nd/3rd line centers

I think that's probably a bit on the optimistic side for some of them though. For me, a second line guy is at least around 40-50, and a first line guy 50/55+. I know some of our centers have higher production than my rating would indicate, but I think on a contending team, that would be the role you'd see these guys playing.

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11-01-2013, 10:14 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
Probably not much higher than they are now, honestly. I just am tired of Trotz's mind games, taking numbers, over emphasis on defense and trying not to lose. I'm tired of Poile's inability to draft a true elite forward. He went with Pickard when Eberle was sitting right there! And overpaying for Hendricks is just not justified at all.

In hindsight, maybe they should have let some of the kids stay up, Beck and Watson for example, and let them start learning and growing. Building a good core instead of trying to eke out wins with a bunch of 3rd and fourth liners.
I'd like to see Beck got a shot, and if we started getting injured forwards, I think we will see him sooner rather than later. Watson looked a bit overmatched at times during his stint last season. I'd rather see him continue to get big minutes in Milwaukee unless we really need to bring him up.

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11-01-2013, 10:18 PM
  #63
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I'd like to see Beck got a shot, and if we started getting injured forwards, I think we will see him sooner rather than later. Watson looked a bit overmatched at times during his stint last season. I'd rather see him continue to get big minutes in Milwaukee unless we really need to bring him up.
Beck scored his second goal of the season tonight, an empty netter. Meanwhile, Sissons and Bitetto (a D-man) have 4 goals apiece.

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11-01-2013, 10:21 PM
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Beck scored his second goal of the season tonight, an empty netter. Meanwhile, Sissons and Bitetto (a D-man) have 4 goals apiece.
Thanks for that af. I don't keep up on them as much as I should. Was mistakenly just thinking of last season's performance.

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11-01-2013, 10:24 PM
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honestly if for some reason trotz was fired i would expect housley to be interim for the rest of the season
Fair enough. And the long term answer to a better Preds coach or GM is...?

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11-01-2013, 10:30 PM
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Thanks for that af. I don't keep up on them as much as I should. Was mistakenly just thinking of last season's performance.
I was at both games against Texas. It helps when you see the players in person. I posted on another thread that Beck looks a step or two slow compared to last season. He is listed as the same weight, 207 pounds. I think he is hurt, like a rib injury or an oblique or groin pull, something he can play with, but is slowing him down on the ice. He just isn't the same player at the AHL level that I remember. On Wednesday, the Ads played with 11 forwards, Henderson has been out and Salomaki was scratched.

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11-01-2013, 10:40 PM
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Probably not much higher than they are now, honestly. I just am tired of Trotz's mind games, taking numbers, over emphasis on defense and trying not to lose. I'm tired of Poile's inability to draft a true elite forward. He went with Pickard when Eberle was sitting right there! And overpaying for Hendricks is just not justified at all.

In hindsight, maybe they should have let some of the kids stay up, Beck and Watson for example, and let them start learning and growing. Building a good core instead of trying to eke out wins with a bunch of 3rd and fourth liners.
I think they need to play in Milwaukee until January. They can get their games together and be better in Nashville. Last game that I was at, they weren't playing on the same line. Maybe if they did, they could be more effective in the AHL and NHL. Being scratched in Nashville would be the worst thing for both of them. If they play in every situation in Milwaukee, they would be better prepared for a single role with the Preds, i.e. 3rd line or PK.

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11-01-2013, 10:47 PM
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looooong time lurker on these boards, finally got around to registering so i could join in the fun.

I think what it comes down to from my perspective is that there is a growing segment of the fanbase that is tired of "Predators Hockey", and wants a change. I gave up my season tickets prior to last season primarily for that reason. I feel like i know the ceiling for Trotz/Poile, and i want more than what they are capable of providing. I've seen enough to come to the conclusion we'll never be a team that goes deep into the playoffs with Trotz and Poile at the helm. I'm ready to give someone else a chance. Could it turn out worse? Absolutely, but I'm not content with the status quo, so that's a risk I'm hugely in favor of taking.

At the risk of going off topic, Iron Duke - how did you end up becoming a Preds fan? I was born and raised in San Dimas, moved to Nashville for work in 2001 and slowly shifted allegiances from the Kings to the Preds. Took a couple of years, but eventually i shifted over 100%.
Welcome BL!!!

I have lived in the Midwest my whole life. Been to LA twice and didn't like it. San Diego, San Francisco and Palm Springs were all nice. I did stop in Ontario once, close to your old stomping grounds!

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11-01-2013, 10:50 PM
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Fair enough. And the long term answer to a better Preds coach or GM is...?
I don't think anyone not involved in the NHL can give an educated answer to this...

Who knew Shero would be one of the best GMs in the league? Pittsburgh thought so, but that's probably because they had dealt with him before in his tenure as assistant GM in Nashville/Ottawa and also put him through the wringer on interviews, etc. They (ownership) just had to make a gut call.

Coaches you have a little more to go by, but we know what's out there in terms of proven NHL talent. Laviollette-- just got fired because he couldn't get a talented group of forwards to score. What's he going to do with us?

Everyone want to rave about Housely, but his primary job before this was a high school coach... people are more excited because of his name. Not saying he can't be a good coach, but who the heck knows?

There are plenty of other names out there (big and small)-- heck Scott Walker and Bob Boughner are coaching well in juniors- lets give them the job. Or maybe we should hire someone who was a better player in the NHL-- Bret Hull? Al McInnus? Mike Modano? Or let's go for the best-- Wayne Gretzky-- surely he would make a good coach?

Who knows?

The only thing I'm pretty confident of is that no coach will turn the current roster into a contender. Not one.

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11-01-2013, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
Probably not much higher than they are now, honestly. I just am tired of Trotz's mind games, taking numbers, over emphasis on defense and trying not to lose. I'm tired of Poile's inability to draft a true elite forward. He went with Pickard when Eberle was sitting right there! And overpaying for Hendricks is just not justified at all.

In hindsight, maybe they should have let some of the kids stay up, Beck and Watson for example, and let them start learning and growing. Building a good core instead of trying to eke out wins with a bunch of 3rd and fourth liners.
Eberle wasn't even the next forward drafted after Pickard and in reality was the FOURTH player taken after Chet. Yes, Chet Pickard is a bust but it's amazing how easy it is to tell which player a team should draft five years after the fact as compared to the day before the draft. As was previously mentioned, the "take numbers" comment is used completely out of context here and ignores how many times the gloves dropped in the game it was uttered after.

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11-01-2013, 11:14 PM
  #71
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Fulmer won a championship. Barry Trotz has won jack. He is never going to lead this team to a Cup. It is time for a change, in my opinion. And you know what, the next coach could be terrible. Or he could be great and get these forwards playing to their real potential. But if you as a Preds fan or basing your loyalty to the team on whether Barry Trotz is fired or not, wow.

It's one thing if you support Trotz and point to his track record of getting the team into the playoffs. That is legit. But if you are against making a change because you think the fan base is so poor here that it will cause the team to up and MOVE, then I honestly don't know what to say to you.
Don't confuse my loyalty with the loyalty of the average Predators fan. Win or lose, I'm a life long fan. I want a Cup with or without Trotz or Poile. But I understand the risk of replacing Trotz.

If a change is made, and things go south for 3-4 years like they did in Knoxville, the Preds will lose a dangerous amount of the fan base. Don't kid yourself. The average attendance in Neyland Stadium dropped around 30% during the Dooley era. What do you think the Preds owners would do if their average attendance dropped to 12k-13k for 2-3 years?

I suppose some around here have much greater faith in the fan base than I do. But I never thought I'd see so many empty seats for so long in Knoxville. And before Fulmer was fired, I said over and over there is no way things could possibly get worse.

The difference between the two situations is the Vols will play in Neyland Stadium no matter how many fans show up. The Predators will play in another arena in another city if something similar happens with attendance resulting from a coaching change.

One last thought... I've mentioned several times that I don't think Ciggaran will tolerate the status quo. Way too many changes have been implemented since he assumed leadership of the owners group to accept an average team. He has brought in new front office management and given Poile the green light to spend to the cap. An assistant coach and the head trainer were fired after last years' abysmal results. Unlike my hesitancy stemming from the dumpster fire in Knoxville, he'll drop the ax on Trotz (and Poile if necessary) if and when he believes the team is stagnant.

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11-02-2013, 02:07 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
I'm not in the anti-Trotz crowd, but...

Realistically, I'd guess:

-One winger with top-line potential (though I'm guessing on the low end ~50-60 points) who's not ready for the NHL (Forsberg)
-One winger with top-line upside who is more likely a second liner (Wilson)
-Two second line wingers (Hornqvist/Smith)
-Two 2nd/3rd line tweener wingers (Stalberg/Bourque)
-Three 2nd/3rd line centers

I think that's probably a bit on the optimistic side for some of them though. For me, a second line guy is at least around 40-50, and a first line guy 50/55+. I know some of our centers have higher production than my rating would indicate, but I think on a contending team, that would be the role you'd see these guys playing.
I believe you got it about on the money.

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11-02-2013, 12:12 PM
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The relocation talk is overblown.

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11-02-2013, 01:08 PM
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This is Poile and Trotz's ultimate team. They had plenty of resources this summer from a salary perspective and in the cupboard in regards to prospects. They chose not to pursue a trade. They chose to draft Seth Jones rather than deal the pick, trade up, trade back, etc. They chose the free agents they signed and the term. Poile has publicly said he is happy with the forwards. Trotz as well.

This is their playoff roster. This is their end game.

Live or die by it IMO.

Yes. You can always make an excuse. You can always say there is a reason for our slump. You can also point to the construction of this team.

Let's see where the season ends. Regardless of the on ice product, a lot of talent is on this roster and in the farm system. If this team misses the playoffs again, you have to think there will be consequences.

As an aside, one wonders when Poile is simply going to retire.

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11-02-2013, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by WartracePred View Post
Don't confuse my loyalty with the loyalty of the average Predators fan. Win or lose, I'm a life long fan. I want a Cup with or without Trotz or Poile. But I understand the risk of replacing Trotz.

If a change is made, and things go south for 3-4 years like they did in Knoxville, the Preds wIill lose a dangerous amount of the fan base. Don't kid yourself. The average attendance in Neyland Stadium dropped around 30% during the Dooley era. What do you think the Preds owners would do if their average attendance dropped to 12k-13k for 2-3 years?

I suppose some around here have much greater faith in the fan base than I do. But I never thought I'd see so many empty seats for so long in Knoxville. And before Fulmer was fired, I said over and over there is no way things could possibly get worse.

The difference between the two situations is the Vols will play in Neyland Stadium no matter how many fans show up. The Predators will play in another arena in another city if something similar happens with attendance resulting from a coaching change.

One last thought... I've mentioned several times that I don't think Ciggaran will tolerate the status quo. Way too many changes have been implemented since he assumed leadership of the owners group to accept an average team. He has brought in new front office management and given Poile the green light to spend to the cap. An assistant coach and the head trainer were fired after last yearsabysmal results. Unlike my hesitancy stemming from the dumpster fire in Knoxville, he'll drop the ax on Trotz (and Poile if necessary) if and when he believes the team is stagnant.
I agree almost 100%. However this team will never be as bad as the Vols and lose supporters like they did.

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