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10-31-2013, 08:59 AM
  #76
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Kreider not making the team out of camp may have been the straw that broke the camel's back and finally caused something within him to click. I think both he and the organization assumed he would make the team right off the bat, especially with Hagelin's injury. Kreider wasn't hungry at all during camp and looked like he was going through the motions, as if his spot on the team was assured and he didn't have to fight for it.

Now he's active, engaged, involved, and moving his feet on a consistent basis. He's playing like someone who doesn't want to get sent down to Hartford again and is ready to stick with the team.

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10-31-2013, 09:06 AM
  #77
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I don't think it was a lack of effort. This is a kid that obviously busts his ass off the ice. Why would he be lazy on the ice?

I think it was more not knowing what to do, or not processing it quickly enough, rather than a lack of effort.
Yeah, this. I dont' think Kreider is a lazy player or someone who doesn't want to put in the effort, but if you aren't sure how to apply your effort then you might look lazy

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10-31-2013, 10:21 AM
  #78
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Yeah, this. I dont' think Kreider is a lazy player or someone who doesn't want to put in the effort, but if you aren't sure how to apply your effort then you might look lazy
But Tortorella's system was "stone-age" right? What wasn't he getting? What prevented him from moving his feet?

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10-31-2013, 10:26 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
But Tortorella's system was "stone-age" right? What wasn't he getting? What prevented him from moving his feet?
The fact that the system made it's players not move their feet and play positionally.

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10-31-2013, 10:27 AM
  #80
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The fact that the system made it's players not move their feet and play positionally.
In the defensive zone, you may have a point. In the offensive zone, thats 100% untrue.

Whatever, Im glad we don't have to come up with BS excuses for the kid anymore and something clicked.

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10-31-2013, 10:28 AM
  #81
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He has also been completely gassed at the end of each shift. He doesn't have superhuman stamina like Hagelin does. This indicates to me that he might be at his best in a 15 minute role rather than a 20 minute role.

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10-31-2013, 10:44 AM
  #82
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But Tortorella's system was "stone-age" right? What wasn't he getting? What prevented him from moving his feet?
I wasn't the one claiming it was Tortorella's system.

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10-31-2013, 10:55 AM
  #83
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I wasn't the one claiming it was Tortorella's system.
Im just searching for what "mistakes" Kreider was making that led to his demotions. Because the only mistakes I consistently saw was an unwillingness to move his feet and engage. That'd be on him.

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10-31-2013, 10:59 AM
  #84
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis

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Analysis paralysis is a critical problem in athletics. It can be explained in simple terms as "failure to react in response to over-thought." A victim of sporting analysis paralysis will frequently think in complicated terms of "what to do next" while contemplating the variety of possibilities, and in doing so exhausts the available time in which to act.
Not so uncommon among rookies in their first year of professional sports, I would venture to guess. Kreider had no problem moving his feet in the playoffs 2 years ago. Why? Because Torts didn't give him a lot to think about. The following year, he had to learn the system, learn his responsibilities, learn how to be a professional. And yes, Torts wasn't exactly the most forgiving person when it came to mistakes, particularly in a lockout shortened season.

The idea that Kreider's struggles stemmed from a lack of effort is a crock.

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10-31-2013, 11:09 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis



Not so uncommon among rookies in their first year of professional sports, I would venture to guess. Kreider had no problem moving his feet in the playoffs 2 years ago. Why? Because Torts didn't give him a lot to think about. The following year, he had to learn the system, learn his responsibilities, learn how to be a professional. And yes, Torts wasn't exactly the most forgiving person when it came to mistakes, particularly in a lockout shortened season.

The idea that Kreider's struggles stemmed from a lack of effort is a crock.
Most rookies (all except elite players) need "seasoning" to adjust to the NHL.
I find it quite naive to expect players to transition without any adjustment period, that includes the mental game. That only happens in a video game.

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10-31-2013, 12:19 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis



Not so uncommon among rookies in their first year of professional sports, I would venture to guess. Kreider had no problem moving his feet in the playoffs 2 years ago. Why? Because Torts didn't give him a lot to think about. The following year, he had to learn the system, learn his responsibilities, learn how to be a professional. And yes, Torts wasn't exactly the most forgiving person when it came to mistakes, particularly in a lockout shortened season.

The idea that Kreider's struggles stemmed from a lack of effort is a crock.
I've theorized a few times in the past that this kind of thing seems to be Kreider's MO. He wasn't great when he first got to BC, either. He needed time to wrap his head around the college game before he could allow his natural abilities to take over. Same thing is true for the pro game. To me, that's what seems to have happened here with him. He needs to internalize what's happening around him and his reactions to the parts of his game that aren't his strengths become somewhat automatic. That allows him to maximize the parts of his game that are his strengths. Hopefully he keeps it up.

Also, a little OT, but I really feel like most of the team has had analysis paralysis in this first portion of the season. Particularly our defensemen.

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10-31-2013, 12:26 PM
  #87
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theres 2 things to know about Chris Kreider....

1)Hes EXTREMELY driven, and wants badly to not only make the team, but to win.

2)He's a kid, and he needs to learn.

Sometimes his drive makes him want to skip steps, go directly from step a to step z. I think he's finally gotten it through his head that he needs to do all the other things as well to get from a to z. IE, he cant just skate like a maniac from point a to point b. hes gotta play the game within the system and execute his role.

I also think hes not the kinda guy who can play with scrubs and make them better.

Carl Hagelin IS that kind of guy, he can play with 1st liners or 4th liners and makes everyone around him better. Kreider needs to play with top 6 players otherwise hes just not an effective player.

Having Kreider play 4th line mins last year was totally counterproductive.

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10-31-2013, 12:35 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis



Not so uncommon among rookies in their first year of professional sports, I would venture to guess. Kreider had no problem moving his feet in the playoffs 2 years ago. Why? Because Torts didn't give him a lot to think about. The following year, he had to learn the system, learn his responsibilities, learn how to be a professional. And yes, Torts wasn't exactly the most forgiving person when it came to mistakes, particularly in a lockout shortened season.

The idea that Kreider's struggles stemmed from a lack of effort is a crock.
I think this type of psycho-babble, that there was so much going on upstairs, that it created the illusion that Kreider was coasting around out there, is the crock. Tortorella told Kreider to watch Hagelin - he didnt have to look any further than JT Miller who, despite making mistakes, was still getting ice-time because he was playing balls to the wall.

Im ready to put this behind us, because it looks like the switch has finally been flipped on.

But its not rocket science - as soon as Kreider started moving his feet every shift, he got better.

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10-31-2013, 12:53 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think this type of psycho-babble, that there was so much going on upstairs, that it created the illusion that Kreider was coasting around out there, is the crock. Tortorella told Kreider to watch Hagelin - he didnt have to look any further than JT Miller who, despite making mistakes, was still getting ice-time because he was playing balls to the wall.

Im ready to put this behind us, because it looks like the switch has finally been flipped on.

But its not rocket science - as soon as Kreider started moving his feet every shift, he got better.
I'm with you. I don't know why people feel the need to make excuses for the kid, and we could spend all year speculating and dissecting what made him play like crap one season and suddenly look like a difference maker now.

Minutes and linemates don't prevent a player from going out, playing physical, and getting the puck and his own body to front of the net, which I all I wanted to see from Kreider to begin with.

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10-31-2013, 01:05 PM
  #90
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I think at the end of the day he has FINALLY realized that he can use his 6' 3" 230 pound frame to move anywhere on the ice, move anyone out of the way, and get to any area of the ice he wants to get to because he is that damn big (like on his PP goal) ... He woke up and realized he is one of the strongest players on the ice every night no matter who we are playing!

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10-31-2013, 01:07 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
He has also been completely gassed at the end of each shift. He doesn't have superhuman stamina like Hagelin does. This indicates to me that he might be at his best in a 15 minute role rather than a 20 minute role.
As fast as Kreider is, it's amazing that he weighs 40 lbs. more than Hagelin.

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10-31-2013, 01:11 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
He has also been completely gassed at the end of each shift. He doesn't have superhuman stamina like Hagelin does. This indicates to me that he might be at his best in a 15 minute role rather than a 20 minute role.
Hags is also kinda a monster. He's as fast at the end of the game as he is at the start of it, and is consistently the fastest player on the ice.

Factor that in with his role on the forecheck (puck retrieval, puck retrieval, and more puck retrieval) and it really shows how crazy good his legs and cardio are.

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10-31-2013, 01:13 PM
  #93
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Kreider is a gym rat but Hagelin is a workout freak on the level of Richter.

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10-31-2013, 01:15 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think this type of psycho-babble, that there was so much going on upstairs, that it created the illusion that Kreider was coasting around out there, is the crock. Tortorella told Kreider to watch Hagelin - he didnt have to look any further than JT Miller who, despite making mistakes, was still getting ice-time because he was playing balls to the wall.

Im ready to put this behind us, because it looks like the switch has finally been flipped on.

But its not rocket science - as soon as Kreider started moving his feet every shift, he got better.
I knew you would bring up Miller. Miller is a different player. A different person. Different people react differently in different situations. And despite being more engaged, Miller was no more effective. Miller ran around and made mistakes. Kreider sat back more and tried not to make mistakes. Two different reactions to the same problem. That being, that neither were mentally ready for the NHL last year.

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10-31-2013, 01:16 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think this type of psycho-babble, that there was so much going on upstairs, that it created the illusion that Kreider was coasting around out there, is the crock. Tortorella told Kreider to watch Hagelin - he didnt have to look any further than JT Miller who, despite making mistakes, was still getting ice-time because he was playing balls to the wall.

Im ready to put this behind us, because it looks like the switch has finally been flipped on.

But its not rocket science - as soon as Kreider started moving his feet every shift, he got better.
Another one of your long list of head scratching posts.
Hagelin's game is not Kreider's game. Hagelin is 5'11 190lbs, Kreider is 6'3 230 lbs. Hagelin is also 2+ years older. You would have been the first one to accuse him of playing "small".
By the way the "psycho babble" is relevant for young kids coming up, how they adjust has a lot to do with the mind.

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Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
I'm with you. I don't know why people feel the need to make excuses for the kid, and we could spend all year speculating and dissecting what made him play like crap one season and suddenly look like a difference maker now.

Minutes and linemates don't prevent a player from going out, playing physical, and getting the puck and his own body to front of the net, which I all I wanted to see from Kreider to begin with.
You agree with him, yet you contradict his post.
Which is it, play like Hagelin or play physical and park in front of the net?

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10-31-2013, 01:20 PM
  #96
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Another one of your long list of head scratching posts.
Hagelin's game is not Kreider's game. Hagelin is 5'11 190lbs, Kreider is 6'3 230 lbs. Hagelin is also 2+ years older. You would have been the first one to accuse him of playing "small".
By the way the "psycho babble" is relevant for young kids coming up, how they adjust has a lot to do with the mind.
The only way this post or that general idea can make you scratch your head is if you continue to go down the rabbit hole, like so many others are doing, and over thinking what was needed out of Kreider last year.

to ****ing SKATE. to move his feet. Thats it. Its about as simple as it gets - thats why Im so baffled as to why people feel the need to go so deep with the excuses as to why he stunk last year. He wasn't skating.

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10-31-2013, 01:23 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The only way this post or that general idea can make you scratch your head is if you continue to go down the rabbit hole, like so many others are doing, and over thinking what was needed out of Kreider last year.

to ****ing SKATE. to move his feet. Thats it. Its about as simple as it gets - thats why Im so baffled as to why people feel the need to go so deep with the excuses as to why he stunk last year. He wasn't skating.
Yeah, but why wasn't he skating? It's not about excuses, it's about figuring out why he wasn't doing the things he needed to. Some people like to go one level deeper in a problem.

Analysis paralysis isn't some made up thing, either.

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10-31-2013, 01:26 PM
  #98
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Uh, Tortorella did actually tell Kreider to watch how Hagelin plays. He's not making that part up, and Kreider IS playing more like how Hagelin plays now. He's using his speed to get on top of defenders before they can move the puck and he's taking the puck away from them and setting things up. Yes it's not exactly how Hagelin plays but it's an important part

And yeah Hagelin's conditioning is apparently legendary at UM. He came in as a rookie and blew the doors off of everyone

e: and to be honest, just saying "skate and move your feet!" still doesn't get a player very far...playing smart and knowing when to skate at the most effective time and how to position yourself is far more valuable than skating all over the ice like an idiot.


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10-31-2013, 01:30 PM
  #99
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Yeah, but why wasn't he skating? It's not about excuses, it's about figuring out why he wasn't doing the things he needed to. Some people like to go one level deeper in a problem.
I dont care. My point, in all of this, is it was on Kreider as to why (real or perceived) he wasn't showing any effort most nights. He seems to have corrected the problems - good on him.

Now, with a few more games of legitimate effort, maybe we can move on to what kind of NHL player he will be. Because, despite what some of the brainiacs around here think, that is to be determined.

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10-31-2013, 01:33 PM
  #100
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You agree with him, yet you contradict his post.
Which is it, play like Hagelin or play physical and park in front of the net?
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Getting to the net is different than parking in front of the net. Kreider's speed would be useless if he was "parked." The "watch how Hagelin plays" stuff was abut moving your feet, using your speed to get around defenders, winning races, etc. He didn't tell him to BE Hags, but he clearly wanted CK to adopt some of the characteristics of Hags' game (the very same characteristics that have made CK so effective over the last 3 games).

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