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Homer's last 3 major moves.

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Old
11-01-2013, 02:10 AM
  #26
dookie88
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
i still dont agree the Schenn for JVR was a problem and certainly not a debacle..

i still dont mind Schenn and i dont miss JVR.
If Simmonds, Hartnell, B.Schenn and especially Voracek would perform like they ae able to nobody would talk about JVR.
That's neither L.Schenn's nor Homers fault.

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11-01-2013, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
If Simmonds, Hartnell, B.Schenn and especially Voracek would perform like they ae able to nobody would talk about JVR.
That's neither L.Schenn's nor Homers fault.
Agree. At the time Homer traded a strength for a weakness. We needed a young dman. Toronto needed help up front. It made perfect sense then. Hindsight is what it is but at the time I agree with the move. I do also think Holmgren's time is up but I'd be typing for days explaining why

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11-01-2013, 04:39 AM
  #28
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The issue is, that JVR was clearly the higher potential player. We traded for a top 4 guy, Toronto traded for more than that.

It does remain to be seen if he finds consistency though. He was the definition of wishy-washy in Philly.

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11-01-2013, 07:17 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The issue is, that JVR was clearly the higher potential player. We traded for a top 4 guy, Toronto traded for more than that.
That is debatable. If JVR's potential was higher, it wasn't by much. Ypou also have to factor in that it appeared that JvR was expendable at the time, and that our defensive future was in shambles. Even assuming JvR was better and had more potential (which again I think is debatable), it is still a trade I think that needs to get done. Was it an immediate homenrun? No. But at the time it was the right move and still has plenty of time to turn into a homerun.

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It does remain to be seen if he finds consistency though. He was the definition of wishy-washy in Philly.
Yeah, he still hasn't proven anything to me yet. Everyone acts like he had a great year last year, when in reality he put up similar numbers to brayden Schenn, but no one seems to care about that.

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11-01-2013, 07:43 AM
  #30
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Agree. At the time Homer traded a strength for a weakness. We needed a young dman. Toronto needed help up front. It made perfect sense then. Hindsight is what it is but at the time I agree with the move. I do also think Holmgren's time is up but I'd be typing for days explaining why
Well I wouldn't say perfect sense, since I still believe we could have gotten someone like Yandle for JVR plus a little something. And with Kimo getting older and Pronger being done it would have made more sense to acquire this kind of a player.
On the other hand Mez was pretty good back than and we sucked at defending.

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11-01-2013, 10:07 AM
  #31
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Homer's downfall began the moment he signed Bryzgalov
I disagree. Looking at this particular team, Homer's downfall began the moment he traded Richards and Carter. The absolute lack of patience by this organization in trying to stay the course is mind-boggling. Poor Claude Giroux now looks like Richards did back in 2010-11.

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11-01-2013, 10:28 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
I disagree. Looking at this particular team, Homer's downfall began the moment he traded Richards and Carter. The absolute lack of patience by this organization in trying to stay the course is mind-boggling. Poor Claude Giroux now looks like Richards did back in 2010-11.
Patience for what? Richards has kind of regressed to being a role player now. Carter is pretty much the same as he was before just as a winger now.

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11-01-2013, 11:54 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That is debatable. If JVR's potential was higher, it wasn't by much. Ypou also have to factor in that it appeared that JvR was expendable at the time, and that our defensive future was in shambles. Even assuming JvR was better and had more potential (which again I think is debatable), it is still a trade I think that needs to get done. Was it an immediate homenrun? No. But at the time it was the right move and still has plenty of time to turn into a homerun.



Yeah, he still hasn't proven anything to me yet. Everyone acts like he had a great year last year, when in reality he put up similar numbers to brayden Schenn, but no one seems to care about that.
I agree with the above sentiments. Everyone is continually tantalized by JVR's immense talents (and I won't deny that because there's some serious skill there), but the man still can't put it all together. At some time, you cut bait. I'll say this right now - I guarantee JVR starts his usual disappearing act shortly. It happens like clock work.

As for Luke Schenn, he played fantastic for the Flyers last season and I'm still baffled as to why his ice time has been all over the place this season. Coburn, who gets a continual pass by the Flyers, has been horrendous for the better part of a season and change now, yet he still gets 20 minutes a night. I just don't understand this club sometimes.....

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11-01-2013, 12:10 PM
  #34
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I still don't get what the obsession is with Carter and Richards. People act like they left here and Richards has been a 30 goal 75-80 point heart and soul guy like he was 5-6 years ago and that Carter has been a 45 goal scorer. They've both leveled off and Richards is your 50-55 point 2way player while Carter may be someone who scores 30-40 a year depending on if he feels like playing or not. Neither are the reason LA won the cup.

I know Homer was the one that gave those crazy contracts but I for one am not angry that we'll miss out of Richards and his $5.75m per while he's scoring 50-55 points during his prime considering he's signed until he's 36. The way he plays, I can easily see him breaking down and being nothing more than a 3rd liner in his early 30s. Carter is signed until he's 38 for $5.25m per and for a guy like him, when he loses a step, he can easily revert to a 20-25 goal scorer in his early to mid 30s.

The way the media talks here and across the country you would think these two single handedly won the cup and that they left this team with nothing. Let's see what LA looks like in 3-4 years and do the same for the Flyers.

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11-01-2013, 12:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I agree with the above sentiments. Everyone is continually tantalized by JVR's immense talents (and I won't deny that because there's some serious skill there), but the man still can't put it all together. At some time, you cut bait. I'll say this right now - I guarantee JVR starts his usual disappearing act shortly. It happens like clock work.

As for Luke Schenn, he played fantastic for the Flyers last season and I'm still baffled as to why his ice time has been all over the place this season. Coburn, who gets a continual pass by the Flyers, has been horrendous for the better part of a season and change now, yet he still gets 20 minutes a night. I just don't understand this club sometimes.....
Maybe teams start to focus on him more when he starts to streak a bit.

Leafs are a good ass team and its annoying

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11-01-2013, 12:12 PM
  #36
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Patience for what? Richards has kind of regressed to being a role player now. Carter is pretty much the same as he was before just as a winger now.
Geez, come back and talk to me in 5 years when maybe somebody will finally understand the implications of these trades. The Flyers have stepped back since 2011 and are now no better, and likely, worse off than then. Meanwhile, the Kings have won a Stanley Cup and continue to compete at a very high level in a very tough division (and I know, Carter wasn't traded to the Kings and the Kings have other players maybe more important than those two and Pronger got hurt, blah, blah, blah). And yes, Richards is a role player who will score 60-65 points as a number 2 center playing both ends of the ice (and man are those kinds of players ever easy to find) and Carter is likely a guaranteed 35-40 goal scorer as a number 4 winger (and they're easy to find too) with both players each having a very good chance of making the Canadian Olympic team. Give them a little credit will ya and maybe, just maybe, look at reality and the Flyers lack of patience and a long term plan as resulting in their back step. The sooner Holmgren is gone and a new manager (likely Hextall) convinces Snider to take the long road, then the better w'll be, painful as it may be in the short term.

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11-01-2013, 12:15 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Geez, come back and talk to me in 5 years when maybe somebody will finally understand the implications of these trades. The Flyers have stepped back since 2011 and are now no better, and likely, worse off than then. Meanwhile, the Kings have won a Stanley Cup and continue to compete at a very high level in a very tough division (and I know, Carter wasn't traded to the Kings and the Kings have other players maybe more important than those two and Pronger got hurt, blah, blah, blah). And yes, Richards is a role player who will score 60-65 points as a number 2 center playing both ends of the ice (and man are those kinds of players ever easy to find) and Carter is likely a guaranteed 35-40 goal scorer as a number 4 winger (and they're easy to find too) with both players each having a very good chance of making the Canadian Olympic team. Give them a little credit will ya and maybe, just maybe, look at reality and the Flyers lack of patience and a long term plan as resulting in their back step. The sooner Holmgren is gone and a new manager (likely Hextall) convinces Snider to take the long road, then the better w'll be, painful as it may be in the short term.
Aren't they doing that now? So you want Holmgren fired and Hextall to do exactly what is happening right now?

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11-01-2013, 12:31 PM
  #38
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Aren't they doing that now? So you want Holmgren fired and Hextall to do exactly what is happening right now?
Do you or anyone else have any clue what the Flyers' long term plan is besides "win now"? And where has that got them? At least Hextall came from an organization that seemed to have a plan starting 5-6 years ago when the Kings were frankly abysmal, a plan that has brought them a Stanley Cup and a team that will be a contender for years. Holmgren tossed any semblance of a plan he may have had satrting in 2011 and the Flyers have stumbled around ever since. Hextall needs to look at the core of the team and who to keep, where they're weak, what's in the farm, what kind of team they need to be successful in the conference they're in and where he might get the pieces to start filling in the gaps with a long term stated goal. Holmgren just simply seems to make changes for change sake with terrible contractual arrangements to boot.
Although I'm being harsh on Holmgren, I don't like to be cause I fear almost everything he does may originate from elsewhere, eg. Snider and/or Clarke

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11-01-2013, 12:49 PM
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Mason already is a good NHL starter.

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11-01-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Do you or anyone else have any clue what the Flyers' long term plan is besides "win now"? And where has that got them? At least Hextall came from an organization that seemed to have a plan starting 5-6 years ago when the Kings were frankly abysmal, a plan that has brought them a Stanley Cup and a team that will be a contender for years. Holmgren tossed any semblance of a plan he may have had satrting in 2011 and the Flyers have stumbled around ever since. Hextall needs to look at the core of the team and who to keep, where they're weak, what's in the farm, what kind of team they need to be successful in the conference they're in and where he might get the pieces to start filling in the gaps with a long term stated goal. Holmgren just simply seems to make changes for change sake with terrible contractual arrangements to boot.
Although I'm being harsh on Holmgren, I don't like to be cause I fear almost everything he does may originate from elsewhere, eg. Snider and/or Clarke
So this rant comes after he trades a 29 year old 4th liner for a 26 year old Top 6 winger and you say he has to look towards the future. Did he not just try to do that this deal in mind?

I think the Flyers have like 4 players over 30

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11-01-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
If Simmonds, Hartnell, B.Schenn and especially Voracek would perform like they ae able to nobody would talk about JVR.
That's neither L.Schenn's nor Homers fault.
This. I have absolutely no problem with that trade.

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11-01-2013, 01:56 PM
  #42
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I still don't get what the obsession is with Carter and Richards. People act like they left here and Richards has been a 30 goal 75-80 point heart and soul guy like he was 5-6 years ago and that Carter has been a 45 goal scorer. They've both leveled off and Richards is your 50-55 point 2way player while Carter may be someone who scores 30-40 a year depending on if he feels like playing or not. Neither are the reason LA won the cup.

I know Homer was the one that gave those crazy contracts but I for one am not angry that we'll miss out of Richards and his $5.75m per while he's scoring 50-55 points during his prime considering he's signed until he's 36. The way he plays, I can easily see him breaking down and being nothing more than a 3rd liner in his early 30s. Carter is signed until he's 38 for $5.25m per and for a guy like him, when he loses a step, he can easily revert to a 20-25 goal scorer in his early to mid 30s.

The way the media talks here and across the country you would think these two single handedly won the cup and that they left this team with nothing. Let's see what LA looks like in 3-4 years and do the same for the Flyers.
This exactly. Plus other fans seem to ignore Carter's trip to Columbus in between.

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11-01-2013, 02:02 PM
  #43
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There's a lot of underrating of Richards and Carter in these parts. In Carter's case, there's always been underrating.

Carter paced for 30 goals in Columbus, while playing discontented.

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11-01-2013, 02:30 PM
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Richards plays Selke caliber defense and was one of our best shorthanded threats ever. Carter put up one of the best goal scoring seasons this franchise has ever seen.

Kind of appalling the lack of respect they get around here. Not like they ever trashed the franchise and with those two we went farther an did far better then we've done with this current core.

Richards is playing a secondary role behind Kopitar. He didn't have to play behind any other centers in Philadelphia. He went from the go-to guy to the defensive secondary scorer and he's done both roles very well. Carter is still one of the best goal scorers in the league when healthy.

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11-01-2013, 02:33 PM
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There's a lot of underrating of Richards and Carter in these parts. In Carter's case, there's always been underrating.

Carter paced for 30 goals in Columbus, while playing discontented.
Exactly. Its a way of justifying the 2011 trades as being advantage Flyers when, truth be told, its not (so far). And what I'm trying to say is that without some sort of long term plan those trades will never be advantage Flyers. Trust me, trading Talbot for Downie was not off the sheet of some sort of plan to make the Flyers more competitive over the long term. It was, as usual, a shot in the dark; pacify some pissed off fans and the local media and hope for the best.

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11-01-2013, 02:35 PM
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Richards plays Selke caliber defense and was one of our best shorthanded threats ever. Carter put up one of the best goal scoring seasons this franchise has ever seen.

Kind of appalling the lack of respect they get around here. Not like they ever trashed the franchise and with those two we went farther an did far better then we've done with this current core.

Richards is playing a secondary role behind Kopitar. He didn't have to play behind any other centers in Philadelphia. He went from the go-to guy to the defensive secondary scorer and he's done both roles very well. Carter is still one of the best goal scorers in the league when healthy.
And Richards would have been great in a secondary role behind Giroux. Think about it.

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11-01-2013, 02:47 PM
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I'm still trying to figure out why Richards/Carter were used as the example of being patient?

Their development was never the issue, it was their attitude (or at least the rumor)

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11-01-2013, 02:48 PM
  #48
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And Richards would have been great in a secondary role behind Giroux. Think about it.
Yep. I never bought the argument that he and Carter would have held Giroux back.

Richards is only 4 SHG behind Clarke and he's still got several years to play. He's tied with Mark Howe and 3 behind Barber. He's one of the best PKers the franchise ever had.

Edit: And yeah, the problem with them wasn't patience. The CHIEF problem was Homer's wheeling and dealing/cap management putting the team into a very desperate situation where drastic action was needed. Everyone knew Philly was going to be trading major pieces that offseason. They ended up trading for the maximum return.

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11-01-2013, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There's a lot of underrating of Richards and Carter in these parts. In Carter's case, there's always been underrating.

Carter paced for 30 goals in Columbus, while playing discontented.
Meh. I think Carter is pretty fairly rated around here. He's a good, not great player. Not the cornerstone of any team IMO, but certainly not a throwaway. He's a lock for 25-35 goals a year, which will help any team, and I think most people recognize that. No one (that I have seen) is saying the guy sucks, and no one is saying he is an elite forward. He's a good NHLer, probably a borderline all-star.

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11-01-2013, 02:55 PM
  #50
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I'm still trying to figure out why Richards/Carter were used as the example of being patient?

Their development was never the issue, it was their attitude (or at least the rumor)
And if I ran my business on the basis of rumour and innuendo, I'd have been broke and on the street long ago.

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