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Emelin extended for 4 years (4.1 Million per)

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Old
11-01-2013, 02:29 PM
  #751
Brainiac
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Originally Posted by Drive425 View Post
OK let's say you have the option to work for two different companies. You have no preference for either and they offer the same benefits and perks. But, you will make 7.5% more if you work for one of the company. Which would you choose?
You're missing an important point.

7.5% is a lot if you're talking in the 30k range. That extra 2k a year is huge because you're on a budget.

But with 3M? The extra 200k will be sitting in your bank account and you won't see the difference.

As I wrote previously, coming from the mouth of a guy who went to multiple NHL teams, it rarely is a concern for players.

I'm sure most players want to play for a good organization, in a nice city, get good money and term etc. If taxes was THE factor, Edmonton would be one of the most attractive places for UFA...

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11-01-2013, 02:30 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Is one major factor living in Canada vs the US? 'Cause 10% wouldn't be enough to make me move even semi-permanently south of the border.
That's a personal preference not really a relevant factor. Most players will go to most cities in Canada and the US.

I'd think the US would be more attractive to some players because of the relative anonymity they would enjoy.

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11-01-2013, 02:34 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
You're missing an important point.

7.5% is a lot if you're talking in the 30k range. That extra 2k a year is huge because you're on a budget.

But with 3M? The extra 200k will be sitting in your bank account and you won't see the difference.

As I wrote previously, coming from the mouth of a guy who went to multiple NHL teams, it rarely is a concern for players.

I'm sure most players want to play for a good organization, in a nice city, get good money and term etc. If taxes was THE factor, Edmonton would be one of the most attractive places for UFA...
7.5% is 7.5% regardless if you make 25k or 10 million.

Not saying this is going to be the deciding factor but it is definitely a negative. Which is why Montreal has to overpay a little to sign guys. (the original point I was trying to make)

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11-01-2013, 03:14 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Drive425 View Post
That's a personal preference not really a relevant factor. Most players will go to most cities in Canada and the US.

I'd think the US would be more attractive to some players because of the relative anonymity they would enjoy.
You think I'm any different from everyone else out there who gets settled/comfortable in a spot and are faced with the option to relocate or not? How much is signing with a west coast team worth when it literally doubles the time/distance to go home, for example? What if you like your co-workers, your neighbours, your boss, etc? It's a completely relevant factor.

Montreal, as an organization, takes the good guy approach of pro-actively offering higher money because of understanding this reality, but I don't you'd be safe in claiming that there aren't enough NHLers out there right now to fill a squad, that wouldn't be willing to take as much as a 7.5% pay cut to play in Montreal as opposed to where they currently are.

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11-01-2013, 03:35 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
This would be true using highest marginal tax rates however it can be offset using good tax planning . I read an article about this a while back and long story short your tax rate becomes a blended rate based on where you earn your money and where you declare residency. This is why you will find many athletes declaring residency in homes in low tax jurisdictions in the US because it allows them to file their taxes there . It's more complicated than this but there are legal ways to ease the tax pain.
This is definitely true.

There is also the foreign entertainer (includes atheletes) tax exemptions, Canada - US tax agreement on taxes paid to Canada accredited to US taxes, plus many other tax reducing deferments for this specialized industry.

This gets discussed regularly in the baseball and basketball forums. You will find that foreign athletes pay approximately the equivalent income taxes as living in an average US state.

In short, athletes DO NOT just pay the regular Canadian residents income tax rate on their total income while they are playing.

What they do pay the same as regular citizens is with provincial tax i.e. QST on items purchased, and after retirement and they are residents of a province, would pay the same provincial income rates as regulars for money they pull from deferment.


Last edited by RealityBytes: 11-01-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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11-01-2013, 03:44 PM
  #756
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Can people stop talking about taxation as if it's the determining factor in salary.
That is not why Emelin got 4y at 4.1M.

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11-01-2013, 03:47 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Can people stop talking about taxation as if it's the determining factor in salary.
That is not why Emelin got 4y at 4.1M.
Precisely, local tax rates are not relevant to this at all. He got paid $4.1M because that is his projected worth on the NHL player market.

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11-01-2013, 04:01 PM
  #758
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While as i always it be better if it was a lower cap hit, what do people who disagree with the amount being paid think he should be paid?

I have no issues questioning the term because of injuries however in terms of pure money, what should he be paid?

20 minute a night defenseman, especially free agent ones i believe tend to command in the 3.5 to 4.5 range from what you see around the league. Emelin fits in that category in my opinion.
3.5M was the ceiling of the dollars I was ready to dish out to Emelin.
I mean, it's all about the timing.
As you said, Emelin was a 20min Dman, but that was mainly due to lack of bodies, not skills. Markov-Emelin were struggling once Andrei started to fatigue halfway through the season. Emelin still had a lot of problems with positioning, but I think that was due to him playing off wing not because he's got poor understanding.

I do think he can definitely play up to his paycheck, but I don't think he deserves that cash just yet. I don't have an issue with the money per say, it's the timing that is bizarre. It's only 105 games of experience with plenty to learn, he's a big question mark as to how he'll rebound, there's just no necessity to rush into an extension.


I'm having a very hard time understanding this management group when it comes to contracts. MaxPac and Prust are the only good ones.
It also seems like everybody gets the amount of cash they deserve, except for PK.

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11-01-2013, 04:12 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You think I'm any different from everyone else out there who gets settled/comfortable in a spot and are faced with the option to relocate or not? How much is signing with a west coast team worth when it literally doubles the time/distance to go home, for example? What if you like your co-workers, your neighbours, your boss, etc? It's a completely relevant factor.

Montreal, as an organization, takes the good guy approach of pro-actively offering higher money because of understanding this reality, but I don't you'd be safe in claiming that there aren't enough NHLers out there right now to fill a squad, that wouldn't be willing to take as much as a 7.5% pay cut to play in Montreal as opposed to where they currently are.
1)When attracting a UFA, the player is not going to have any particular relationship with management or coach or player. Players go where either they have a good chance of winning, they are overpaid or a sentimental reason or some combination of those factors. Example, Parise overpaid and hometown boy, Clarkson same, Hossa combo winning & stupid money and so on.

2)The Habs are not interested in guys to fill out the squad. They did that in the late 90's and 00's. That didn't get us very far. The Habs want the elite level and high level talent to come to the Habs but invariably they end up in other places because of one circumstance or another.

3)1)It's not as much as 7.5%, it's as much as 15%.

It's just one extra hurdle the Habs have to deal with. Pisses me off to no end but that is the reality.

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11-01-2013, 04:44 PM
  #760
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http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/01/sp...html?hpt=hp_c2

A little bit of a tangent but it does talk about the new taxes in the french soccer leagues. 75% for those that make more than 1.35 millions.

wow.

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11-01-2013, 05:00 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by shamrun View Post
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/01/sp...html?hpt=hp_c2

A little bit of a tangent but it does talk about the new taxes in the french soccer leagues. 75% for those that make more than 1.35 millions.

wow.
That was one reason Canada brought in the foreign entertainer tax exemption, without it, the Canadian movie industry would have died nor would you have any big concerts from stars. The same would happen for any Canadian sports team trying to compete with the US. Luckily, it also applies to athletes since they are entertainers of a sort.

No one will sign in France if that tax rate is the case and all good French players will emigrate.

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11-01-2013, 05:07 PM
  #762
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side note: How do I block these annoying adds that keep running?

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11-01-2013, 05:26 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
What expedited the signing is probably Emelin working his bag off and being 3-4 weeks ahead of the "early to mid December" return timeframe. Once Emelin is back and playing at last year's level, then his price probably goes up.
Up to what? 7 million?

Come on man... It's not like we got him at a discount.
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Some people here talk out of both sides of your mouth...you want guys signed while their cost is low but at the same time you want the player to finish the year so he can prove he is healthy but then he has the UFA option only a few months away...you can't have it both ways. The coser July 1st gets, the higher Emelin's price goes. With recent UFA markets a guy like that at 27, plus with a KHL element also involved, he EASILY gets 4.5 mil cap hit over 5-6 years if not 4.75-5 mil.
I see no harm in waiting to see the guy play in some games before signing him.

And flip it around... what if he comes back and sucks?
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side note: How do I block these annoying adds that keep running?
Don't know but it's very annoying and it's getting progressively worse.

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11-01-2013, 05:27 PM
  #764
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Up to what? 7 million?
5 million probably.

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11-01-2013, 05:31 PM
  #765
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Don't know but it's very annoying and it's getting progressively worse.

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11-01-2013, 05:32 PM
  #766
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
side note: How do I block these annoying adds that keep running?
At the bottom of the page there is ad choices, you have to adjust some settings, I seem to be getting less ads now.

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11-01-2013, 06:03 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
3.5M was the ceiling of the dollars I was ready to dish out to Emelin.
I mean, it's all about the timing.
As you said, Emelin was a 20min Dman, but that was mainly due to lack of bodies, not skills. Markov-Emelin were struggling once Andrei started to fatigue halfway through the season. Emelin still had a lot of problems with positioning, but I think that was due to him playing off wing not because he's got poor understanding.

I do think he can definitely play up to his paycheck, but I don't think he deserves that cash just yet. I don't have an issue with the money per say, it's the timing that is bizarre. It's only 105 games of experience with plenty to learn, he's a big question mark as to how he'll rebound, there's just no necessity to rush into an extension.


I'm having a very hard time understanding this management group when it comes to contracts. MaxPac and Prust are the only good ones.
It also seems like everybody gets the amount of cash they deserve, except for PK.
However, Kris, you dont have the power to make that decision. Bergevin does.

You do not know Bergevin's plans for the blueline in the future with regard to trades or who will or not be here next season.

You also do not know the doctor's reports regarding Emelin's knee either.

And regarding your last statement, you wanted Subban signed last season for a hell of a lot less money than what he is worth over the next several years and now you are pointing PK out as a victim who is being singled out and short-changed?

That is mind-boggling.

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11-01-2013, 06:15 PM
  #768
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5 million probably.
He might be able to get that on the open market - maybe.

4.1 is a premium for this guy IF he's healthy. If he's not, we've got another problem contract to deal with.

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11-01-2013, 06:17 PM
  #769
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And regarding your last statement, you wanted Subban signed last season for a hell of a lot less money than what he is worth over the next several years and now you are pointing PK out as a victim who is being singled out and short-changed?

That is mind-boggling.
Only thing mind boggling is that we forced Subban into playing for less than 3 mil a year...

Nothing short of Ridiculous!

Guy wanted term and we didn't give it to him? Could've had him for something like 5x5... and we don't do it.

But we'll do 4 x 4.1 for a guy who's on the DL with an ACL and is nowhere near being as good?

WTF are you going on about here??????????

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11-01-2013, 06:24 PM
  #770
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Yeah, I don't care too much about a $600k or $1M premium on a single player. It's just that this single player's salary then influences those that other players get. Unless Emelin comes back and plays like a rock star, of course, which I'm not expecting, but could happen. It doesn't affect the upper end guys. But for an Eller or Diaz, who are in the same ballpark or better... well, I guess it's nice to make our players feel happy and well-compensated, but Bergevin seems to be picking some strange battles (Subban) in the midst of some of this largesse.

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11-01-2013, 06:35 PM
  #771
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However, Kris, you dont have the power to make that decision. Bergevin does.

You do not know Bergevin's plans for the blueline in the future with regard to trades or who will or not be here next season.

You also do not know the doctor's reports regarding Emelin's knee either.

And regarding your last statement, you wanted Subban signed last season for a hell of a lot less money than what he is worth over the next several years and now you are pointing PK out as a victim who is being singled out and short-changed?

That is mind-boggling.
So what if I don't have the power? Am I pretending to have it? We're discussing the deal. Not sure what this has to do with anything.

Even if I don't, we're not talking about moving Gorges or whatever. The discussion is on this deal, and whether we end up moving someone or not is irrelevant. Point is the timing of this deal is a little odd, like it was for DD last year. Point is, you would assume that if we made a concession in signing him early, while injured and out of the game for the last 7 months going, we'd get him at a fairer price.

The medical reports were great for Markov, didn't prevent him from re-injuring himself. Bottom line is until he is actually tested in games, multiple times, we won't know for sure how solid his knee is regardless of how positive reports may be. We also don't know how he'll react, if he'll engage in physical play as much or be more selective.
No report can tell us this.


I wanted PK signed at a cheaper but long term deal before last season, meaning that at the moment of the signing he was worth the money I wanted him signed to (say 4-5M). We take a risk on his progression halting and give him early security, so he commits to a longer deal knowing his value would likely rise if he keeps improving. However, both sides are well aware of this and the money remains fair. PK gets fair compensation for what he's shown. It's not 2 freaking millions.

As for Emelin, he hasn't shown he was worth 4.1M. Not at all the same situation. Not sure how you don't understand the difference.


Can't say I'm surprised you're yet again defending a move of Bergevin.

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11-01-2013, 06:43 PM
  #772
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Kriss, I was very vocal against signing Briere. So that argument (always support Bergevin) falls flat on its face.

Nothing is guaranteed in the NHL. Players will get hurt who have been healthy. Injured players will be re-injured. Injured players will finish their careers with no further problems.

Emelin is the type of DMan who will help this team. And if we are not willing to pay current value for his contract, other teams will.

People seem to have forgotten the collapse of the Habs last season.....shortly after Emelin went out with his knee injury.

Regarding DD, shall we now take the Gainey approach because of one player not living up to expectations? Wait until the last possible moment to try to sign them and then just see them walk away for nothing?

Which is worse? Taking a gamble? Or doing nothing for fear of taking a gamble and then react impulsively because we did nothing?

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11-01-2013, 07:11 PM
  #773
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My feeling on this signing. Note my avatar....it says it all


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11-01-2013, 08:12 PM
  #774
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Kriss, I was very vocal against signing Briere. So that argument (always support Bergevin) falls flat on its face.

Nothing is guaranteed in the NHL. Players will get hurt who have been healthy. Injured players will be re-injured. Injured players will finish their careers with no further problems.

Emelin is the type of DMan who will help this team. And if we are not willing to pay current value for his contract, other teams will.

People seem to have forgotten the collapse of the Habs last season.....shortly after Emelin went out with his knee injury.

Regarding DD, shall we now take the Gainey approach because of one player not living up to expectations? Wait until the last possible moment to try to sign them and then just see them walk away for nothing?

Which is worse? Taking a gamble? Or doing nothing for fear of taking a gamble and then react impulsively because we did nothing?
Couldn't we split the difference though and have him a play some games first? I'm okay with giving him a contract for four years if he comes back and plays well but why now?

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11-01-2013, 08:14 PM
  #775
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I totally expected Gorges money and he got it.

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