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Old
11-02-2013, 11:19 AM
  #26
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Remember when Richards and Upshall and Carter all had to go because there was a leadership/attitude/whatever problem in the dressing room? Well thank god we got that solved.

This is squarely on the players. Yes the D isn't great (Timonen seems to have fallen off a cliff and it's kind of sad to watch) but this group of forwards should be better than this.

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11-02-2013, 11:23 AM
  #27
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SO the coach gets canned, the team still plays like rancid *******.....and there's some fans that think another coaching change is the answer? P.T. Barnum was right.

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11-02-2013, 11:39 AM
  #28
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Chief isn't the problem. The team is filled with a bunch of young guys and a few vets who have been absolutely terrible (Kimmo, Hartnell etc). I know it sucks watching this but the team might suck for a little while. They just need to settle down and play hockey, if they continue to suck then they suck and that's it you look toward the future which seems bright. They have quality young players getting experience now and some nice looking prospects coming in the fold within the next few years.

I will say this though, the Flyers made a huge mistake giving the C to Giroux. They should of given the C to Kimmo back in 08. All this crap now with G and with Richards could have potentially been avoided.

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11-02-2013, 11:50 AM
  #29
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The bottom line is that Roo, Harts, Voracek, simmonds, Coots etc are not producing. Its not Lavy's sustem, Barube's system, or whatever else folks want to blame........If these players can get it going things will turn around. We have lost a bunch of close games where a goal or 2 would of been the difference. Its amazing what just a few goals will do for a struggling players confidence and a teams confidence as well . Its obvious the lads are gripping the stick a little too much and 2nd guessing themselves .

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11-02-2013, 11:56 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by PuqTalk View Post
You guys are ridiculous. The players are the problem. Not the coach, not the manager, not the owner. The players need to step up. They need to stop crumbling when facing adversity. They need to show resiliency. They need to win games. Them and no one else.
Homer brought in the players. He's the problem (or at least a big part of the problem).

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11-02-2013, 11:59 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I know it sucks watching this but the team might suck for a little while. They just need to settle down and play hockey, if they continue to suck then they suck and that's it you look toward the future which seems bright.
I agree. Human beings, especially those who have internet access, seem to act entitled to immediate solutions. It's as if they look at every problem as a stain on the floor, and everyone who isn't walking over and cleaning it is simply lazy or stupid. But they're the Answer Man, the one with the solution. Sometimes there just isn't any at the moment.

The players are talented. The rookie head coach they got stuck with might get better at coaching. I'm pulling for him to get better sooner rather than later.

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11-02-2013, 12:00 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by whatthef View Post
Homer brought in the players. He's the problem (or at least a big part of the problem).
And it's the same corps that's had success in the past. They're playing like **** right now. They need to change that. Stop making excuses.

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11-02-2013, 12:41 PM
  #33
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Yep. I'm at the "blame the players stage."

That's my last resort, but it's become clear they're at fault.

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Old
11-02-2013, 12:54 PM
  #34
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And it's the same corps that's had success in the past. They're playing like **** right now. They need to change that. Stop making excuses.
When has this group had success?

The team is quite different from the group that went to the second round in 2012 and there are just a few guys left from the team that played in the Final in 2010.

Management bet on the wrong horses. The players should take the blame for what is happening on the ice but, the truth is, most of the players aren't as talented as everyone thought they were.

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11-02-2013, 01:10 PM
  #35
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The team is quite different from the group that went to the second round in 2012
I'm counting 13 skaters which are still here from that year.
Added were Downie, Hall, Lecavalier, Raffl and Jay Rosehill on forward and Gill, Luke Schenn and Mark Streit on defense.

This group is not quite different than the one beating the Pens in the playoffs. And if anything this group should be better.
The players are not performing. Homer made some terrible decisions, but did great this off-season and imo robbed Colorado two days ago.

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11-02-2013, 01:10 PM
  #36
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The players should take the blame for what is happening on the ice but, the truth is, most of the players aren't as talented as everyone thought they were.
I agree to some extent. I think there is still a great corps in place though. Out of everyone, the players I'd be most opposed to moving would be Giroux, Simmonds, Schenn Bros., Couturier, and probably Read. I think anyone else could be moved for a nice shakeup.

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11-02-2013, 01:17 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
When has this group had success?

The team is quite different from the group that went to the second round in 2012 and there are just a few guys left from the team that played in the Final in 2010.

Management bet on the wrong horses. The players should take the blame for what is happening on the ice but, the truth is, most of the players aren't as talented as everyone thought they were.
The team really isn't that different from 2012. Notable players who have since departed are: JVR (who only played 40ish games), Jagr, Carle, Briere, Bryz, Bob (but goaltending hasn't really been an issue). So the only players who had a legit impact that year who are no longer with the team are Briere, Jagr and Carle.

Some of the holes left have since been filled by Vinny and Streit who are both playing pretty damn well overall. I don't know but I really can't see how the few significant personnel changes are making this much of an impact. I think the vast majority of the fault now is on the players who have preformed in the past but simply aren't right now, in particular the veterans (Giroux, Hartnell, Kimmo etc).

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11-02-2013, 01:23 PM
  #38
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This a complete organizational failure. ownership, the coaching staff, management, players. Everyone needs look at themselves in the mirror and ask if they want to be part of the solution that is going to turn this season around. If they have even the slightest doubt then GTFO. I dont care who you are.

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11-02-2013, 01:30 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
I'm counting 13 skaters which are still here from that year.
Added were Downie, Hall, Lecavalier, Raffl and Jay Rosehill on forward and Gill, Luke Schenn and Mark Streit on defense.

This group is not quite different than the one beating the Pens in the playoffs. And if anything this group should be better.
The players are not performing. Homer made some terrible decisions, but did great this off-season and imo robbed Colorado two days ago.
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
The team really isn't that different from 2012. Notable players who have since departed are: JVR (who only played 40ish games), Jagr, Carle, Briere, Bryz, Bob (but goaltending hasn't really been an issue). So the only players who had a legit impact that year who are no longer with the team are Briere, Jagr and Carle.

Some of the holes left have since been filled by Vinny and Streit who are both playing pretty damn well overall. I don't know but I really can't see how the few significant personnel changes are making this much of an impact. I think the vast majority of the fault now is on the players who have preformed in the past but simply aren't right now, in particular the veterans (Giroux, Hartnell, Kimmo etc).
The roster turnover is pretty significant from just two playoffs ago. Individual talent only gets you so far; the players have to gel as a team. Chemistry between the individual personalities matter. They have to be able to win together and be able to pick themselves up as a group when things are tough.

The group two years ago didn't quit on each other. This group does.

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11-02-2013, 01:34 PM
  #40
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And it's the same corps that's had success in the past. They're playing like **** right now. They need to change that. Stop making excuses.
I absolutely agree. I can't blame Homer. He's assembled a hell of a team. They just aren't playing. Isn't Homer's fault that a former Hart Trophy hopeful can score a goal right now.

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11-02-2013, 02:01 PM
  #41
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The roster turnover is pretty significant from just two playoffs ago.
Two playoffs ago was 2011. The Flyers were a top contender to go all the way before Pronger got injured. The Flyers nearly managed to get beat by an awful Buffalo team in the first round and than got swept by the eventual Stanley Cup Champion.
What has this to do with this Flyers team?
The Flyers were successful after all the changes after the 2011/12 season.

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Individual talent only gets you so far; the players have to gel as a team. Chemistry between the individual personalities matter. They have to be able to win together and be able to pick themselves up as a group when things are tough.
Bland cliches.

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The group two years ago didn't quit on each other. This group does.
Actually they did.

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Old
11-02-2013, 02:09 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The roster turnover is pretty significant from just two playoffs ago. Individual talent only gets you so far; the players have to gel as a team. Chemistry between the individual personalities matter. They have to be able to win together and be able to pick themselves up as a group when things are tough.

The group two years ago didn't quit on each other. This group does.
I don't think anyone will argue with the bold just that 11-12 was roughly the same personnel who won a lot of games and were a much better group or team.

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11-02-2013, 03:43 PM
  #43
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Two playoffs ago was 2011. The Flyers were a top contender to go all the way before Pronger got injured. The Flyers nearly managed to get beat by an awful Buffalo team in the first round and than got swept by the eventual Stanley Cup Champion.
What has this to do with this Flyers team?
The Flyers missed the playoffs last season and lost to the Devils in the previous playoffs.

2011 was three playoffs ago.

My point was that this team is completely different. The young players the Flyers have aren't as good as everyone thought they'd be to this point. The players bear the responsibility for their on-ice performance, but management is responsible for choosing to jettison vets over the past few off-seasons in favour of younger players.


Quote:
The Flyers were successful after all the changes after the 2011/12 season.
Yes, missing the playoffs for only the second time in 20 seasons is a great success.


Quote:
Actually they did.
The group from two years ago embarrassed the Penguins before being completely outmatched by the Devils in the second round.

In the regular season, only the Penguins won more when trailing first. The Flyers were a team that thought they couldn't lose. This team plays like they think they can't win.

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11-02-2013, 04:10 PM
  #44
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The Flyers missed the playoffs last season and lost to the Devils in the previous playoffs.

2011 was three playoffs ago.
Since "two playoffs ago" isn't really an exact statement, I thought you meant two Flyers-playoffs.

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My point was that this team is completely different. The young players the Flyers have aren't as good as everyone thought they'd be to this point. The players bear the responsibility for their on-ice performance, but management is responsible for choosing to jettison vets over the past few off-seasons in favour of younger players.
And my point is that they aren't that different, which I previously stated. (13 out of 18 skaters are left, only 3 notable missing, with #9, #40 and #32 replacing them).
This team had success and showed that, at the very least, can be a solid playoff team the way it is put together. Hence all the hate towards Homer is a little stupid.

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Yes, missing the playoffs for only the second time in 20 seasons is a great success.
Sorry, meant the "after the changes after the 2011 playoffs. (Richards and Carter trades)


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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The group from two years ago embarrassed the Penguins before being completely outmatched by the Devils in the second round.
So your point is?
Because the group from two years ago is basically the same we have right now, but people will still say Homer is the worst GM in history for putting this years team together.

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In the regular season, only the Penguins won more when trailing first. The Flyers were a team that thought they couldn't lose. This team plays like they think they can't win.
You are right there.
But since this group isn't different regarding players on the roster, what changed?

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Old
11-02-2013, 04:35 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Since "two playoffs ago" isn't really an exact statement, I thought you meant two Flyers-playoffs.

And my point is that they aren't that different, which I previously stated. (13 out of 18 skaters are left, only 3 notable missing, with #9, #40 and #32 replacing them).
This team had success and showed that, at the very least, can be a solid playoff team the way it is put together. Hence all the hate towards Homer is a little stupid.

Sorry, meant the "after the changes after the 2011 playoffs. (Richards and Carter trades)

So your point is?
Because the group from two years ago is basically the same we have right now, but people will still say Homer is the worst GM in history for putting this years team together.

You are right there.
But since this group isn't different regarding players on the roster, what changed?
It is a different group. Jagr, Briere and JVR were all top 6 forwards and Carle was a top 4 defenseman, let alone the character and leadership those guys brought to the team. The top six is completely different now and guys are clearing having issues developing chemistry together. This was a problem even last year. Hartnell, Giroux and Voracek scored a lot of their points in the powerplay; they were nothing special at even strength.

And, let me be clear, I have never been a Holmgren supporter, nor a Holmgren hater. I think he has made some shrewd moves during his tenure and I also have been critical of others. We, as a fan base, have blamed everyone associated with the organization for the current direction of the club. Holmgren and the management group do deserve some of that blame; the team looks good on paper, but that hasn't translated to the on-ice product. The Flyers have spent too much money on defense and some of the young guys (notably Schenn and Simmonds) haven't quite fit into the top 6 yet as originally planned.

It also helps when your leaders are your best players and Hartnell and Timonen have struggled this year... and Talbot and Briere have been moved. As for the new blood, Vinny and Streit are noted leaders from their previous teams, but it will take time for them to fit in with the rest of the team and for the team to accept them as leaders.

Edit: my biggest gripe with Holmgren this year is allowing Lavi a short leash to start the season. Given the clear lack of confidence Holmgren had in Lavi, Lavi should have been fired in the off-season, especially since their was a lot of coaching changes in the summer. I'm willing to be patient with Berube, but his lack of experience does concern me.


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Old
11-02-2013, 05:08 PM
  #46
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So Berube said you can't yell at these guys so Holmgren has to come down from his perch and do it for him...good one

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Old
11-02-2013, 06:37 PM
  #47
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Lazy players, bad owners, bad coaches? Real simple, the coach is paid to coach the players given to him. That's his job. As far as I'm concerned the coach has enough talent to put a decent team on the ice. He didn't yet.

If he can't organize a plan and make his players follow it he doesn't deserve the job.

The owner owns the team. The general manager acquires the players

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