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Which Players Should be Traded and Not Traded

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Old
11-02-2013, 02:05 PM
  #251
Blackhawkswincup
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What exactly are the Flyers biggest needs?

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Old
11-02-2013, 02:06 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
What exactly are the Flyers biggest needs?

General Manager
Young Defensemen
Scoring Forward

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Old
11-02-2013, 02:06 PM
  #253
King Forsberg
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Originally Posted by Cuiffitelli View Post
76 points is not worth 8 mill. Last year was a shorten season and the ppg does not account for the wear down of an 82 game season. Answer this, who has "this great superstar" made better? He is a good player. A very good player but not a top 15 player and no where near Crosby!
Scott Hartnell can partially thank Giroux for his new contract.

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11-02-2013, 02:16 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Cuiffitelli View Post
You right. He had one $ 8 mill year! And still my question goes unanswered
Getzlaf, Perry, Staal, Kessel and Nash are all getting more or similar money for a similar length as he is. He has outproduced all of them for the last 200+ games in the NHL... as well as playoffs.

At his age and his production he was getting 7.5+ whatever.

You pay 7.5 mill+ now for any under 30 forward who gets 75+ points on a regular basis.

If he had had 3 75 points seasons in a row (without that 93) he would have got 7.5+ anyway.

Consistent 65-70 point forwards get paid 6.5-7 mill now.

Semin just got 5 at 7 per year after 1 good year in his last 3... in a shortened season.

If they had waited until the end of this year and he hit 65-70 they would still have probably paid him 7.5 at 8 years frankly.

That is the value for guys like that, people may look at other contracts like Spezza, Kopitar, Kane and Toews... but the year the contract was signed is more important.


Last edited by Appleyard: 11-02-2013 at 02:21 PM.
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Old
11-02-2013, 02:17 PM
  #255
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General Manager
Young Defensemen
Scoring Forward
What type of young defenseman?

NHL or Prospect? PMD or SAH?

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Old
11-02-2013, 02:23 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
What type of young defenseman?

NHL or Prospect? PMD or SAH?
PMD. We have an abundance of SAH dmen in Luke Schenn, Grossmann and Coburn. Only young puck mover we have his Gustafsson but he's far from enough.

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11-02-2013, 02:23 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
What type of young defenseman?

NHL or Prospect? PMD or SAH?
Bobby Orr.

Really they just need everyone playing cohesively and to respond to adversity for once.

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11-02-2013, 02:24 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Getzlaf, Perry, Staal, Kessel and Nash are all getting more or similar money for a similar length as he is. He has outproduced all of them for the last 200+ games in the NHL... as well as playoffs.

At his age and his production he was getting 7.5+ whatever.

You pay 7.5 mill+ now for any under 30 forward who gets 75+ points on a regular basis.

If he had had 3 75 points seasons in a row (without that 93) he would have got 7.5+ anyway.

Consistent 65-70 point forwards get paid 6.5-7 mill now.

Semin just got 5 at 7 per year after 1 good year in his last 3... in a shortened season.

If they had waited until the end of this year and he hit 65-70 they would still have probably paid him 7.5 at 8 years frankly.

That is the value for guys like that, people may look at other contracts like Spezza, Kopitar, Kane and Toews... but the year the contract was signed is more important.
who has G made better?

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Old
11-02-2013, 02:25 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by King Forsberg View Post
Scott Hartnell can partially thank Giroux for his new contract.
or jagr

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Old
11-02-2013, 02:26 PM
  #260
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If this team continues to suck then I would start selling off assets immediately. Hartnell, Timonen, Mez, Coburn, maybe package Simmonds for an goalscorer. If you can move Streit then do it but I don't think anyone wants that contract plus he's actually been pretty good this year.

//////////// - Giroux - Lecavalier
//////////// - Schenn - Simmonds?
Read - Couturier - Downie
/////// - ///////// - Rinaldo

Streit - Schenn
Grossmann - Gustafsson
////////////- ////////////

Mason
///////

If that is our core going into next season then I'm okay with that. There's talent there and room for others to grow as a part of a TEAM, not just a roster of players.

As much as I like Timonen and some of the other players mentioned, they just don't fit this team in the future or present. We have some prospects that will need a spot in the upcoming seasons. If we go full tank this year and get Ekblad then our defense should look good in a couple of years. Even if we get Reinhart I'd be happy with that. But the way this season is going we need to try and stockpile young prospects and picks. I know making a play for Yakupov isn't a popular move but i say go for it. Throw them Simmonds, Hartnell, Coburn whatever, we need a goalscorer in the worst way.

The whole coaching staff should be re done. I like Berube (not as head coach) and Lappy but this team needs fresh minds and new faces behind the bench. Someone who will demand success from the players and hold them accountable.

The front office is obviously a problem too. I'm more of a Holmgren fan than some but his time is coming to an end here. I appreciate every attempt he's made to make this team a champion but it's not working. Keep him in the organization because he is fantastic with scouting and drafting. Let him devote all his time to that. Hextall is next in line for GM for better or worse. I hope he is firm and tells the players/coaches if you don't want to give 100% and do everything you can to win then you will be gone. He's gotta tell Snider that he isn't the GM and to stay out of any decisions for the better of this team.

End of rant.

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Old
11-02-2013, 02:30 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuiffitelli View Post
or jagr
Not so much. Giroux made Hartnell an all star and helped him have a the best season of his career. Jagr helped but Giroux was by far the more important factor that year.

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11-02-2013, 02:37 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by King Forsberg View Post
Not so much. Giroux made Hartnell an all star and helped him have a the best season of his career. Jagr helped but Giroux was by far the more important factor that year.
But jagr is gone and Hartnell sucked when on G's line without him. Regardless G will better serve this team if we traded him, along with the other overrated gang and rebuilt. Unfortunately no one wants this garbage

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11-02-2013, 02:41 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuiffitelli View Post
who has G made better?
Hartnell scored at a higher rate when playing with G than he did with Richards, Briere or Carter as his centre... he also scored at a rate of 50 a year for the 4 years before being put with G, so scored at a 20% higher rate when playing with G...

Voracek scored at a 30% higher rate when playing with G than the other 4 years of his career...

JVR had more PPG on the flyers when on G's wing than Richards...

Jagr scored at a lower rate when G was out for 5 games and G scored at a higher rate when Jagr was out for the 9 games he missed...

Oh... he made Darroll Powe (who is now an AHLer) get paid 1.2mill a year... and Arron Asham had a great year and playoffs when playing with G.

So basically every linemate he has ever had up until this year produced at a higher rate when playing with him... Jeff Carter is the only guy who did not (he had his 2nd best season playing mainly with G... not his best.)


Last edited by Appleyard: 11-02-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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Old
11-02-2013, 02:50 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Hartnell scored at a higher rate when playing with G than he did with Richards, Briere or Carter as his centre... he also scored at a rate of 50 a year for the 4 years before being put with G, so scored at a 20% higher rate when playing with G...

Voracek scored at a 30% higher rate when playing with G than the other 4 years of his career...

JVR had more PPG on the flyers when on G's wing than Richards...

Jagr scored at a lower rate when G was out for 5 games and G scored at a higher rate when Jagr was out for the 9 games he missed...
The majority of these numbers are skewed because they don't take into account typical player development. In addition JVR is scoring at a much higher now then when playing along side G. Hartnel's play was elevated by Jagr not G proven by the fact Hartnel has stunk since Jagr left. You may have something with Jake but the sample is too small to account for. If he made Jake so much better then why did they look so bad together this year and parts of last year? So keep believing G is a franchise player as the rest of the league refer to him as Fraud Giroux. For once be objective. There is a reason they make fun of him and the Flyer's fan base.


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Old
11-02-2013, 02:57 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Cuiffitelli View Post
But jagr is gone and Hartnell sucked when on G's line without him. Regardless G will better serve this team if we traded him, along with the other overrated gang and rebuilt. Unfortunately no one wants this garbage
Oh come on. You claim that Giroux's 2013 season doesn't count since it was a shortened season. But you claim it does count against Hartnell because he wasn't good. Not to mention Hartnell has had 2 injuries since then and has only played 40 games since the 2012 season. I don't see how you can claim one sample size and meaningful and another as meaningless.

Who do you propose we trade this "overrated garbage" for?

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11-02-2013, 02:58 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by King Forsberg View Post
Oh come on. You claim that Giroux's 2013 season doesn't count since it was a shortened season. But you claim it does count against Hartnell because he wasn't good. Not to mention Hartnell has had 2 injuries since then and has only played 40 games since the 2012 season. I don't see how you can claim one sample size and meaningful and another as meaningless.

Who do you propose we trade this "overrated garbage" for?
They can't....no one wants them!...guys were arguing in circles and manipulated numbers. We will have to let this play out to see whose right (me) . Enjoy the season and marvel as superstar G saves the team because nothing I say or show you will change you mind. Just know this....real 25 year old superstars don't go from 93 points in a season to looking lost and lazy in 2 years and be a real franchise player.


Last edited by Cuiff: 11-02-2013 at 03:04 PM.
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Old
11-02-2013, 03:05 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Cuiffitelli View Post
They can't....no one wants them!
Maybe im just reading this wrong, which has got to be it bur... You saying no one would want Giroux?

If so i am going to assume you're drunk

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11-02-2013, 03:08 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuiffitelli View Post
The majority of these numbers are skewed because they don't take into account typical player development. In addition JVR is scoring at a much higher now then when playing along side G. Hartnel's play was elevated by Jagr not G proven by the fact Hartnel has stunk since Jagr left. You may have something with Jake but the sample is too small to account for. If he made Jake so much better then why did they look so bad together this year and parts of last year? So keep believing G is a franchise player as the rest of the league refer to him as Fraud Giroux. For once be objective. There is a reason they make fun of him and the Flyer's fan base.
So over 200 games is not a decent sample size, as 3 75+ point seasons are not either (each year with different linemates)... and Hartnell, Voracek and JVR having better seasons with G than any other flyer (and in two cases any other year in their career) and Jagr getting less points without G and G more points without Jagr, and Powe and Asham having great years with him, and Carter having arguably his 2nd best year with G are all coincidence and either too small a sample size, or don't count because players were developing, and the rest of the players in the league are not a valid comparison?

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11-02-2013, 03:12 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Cuiffitelli View Post
They can't....no one wants them!...guys were arguing in circles and manipulated numbers. We will have to let this play out to see whose right (me) . Enjoy the season and marvel as superstar G saves the team because nothing I say or show you will change you mind. Just know this....real 25 year old superstars don't go from 93 points in a season to looking lost and lazy in 2 years and be a real franchise player.
No one wants Claude Giroux? Now we can establish that you have no credibility. You are the one manipulating numbers. How can the same sample size be too small for one instance and large enough to make an asinine argument at the same time? You haven't showed me or anyone anything except that you shouldn't be taken seriously.

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11-02-2013, 03:13 PM
  #270
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Maybe im just reading this wrong, which has got to be it bur... You saying no one would want Giroux?

If so i am going to assume you're drunk
not at 8 mill....

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11-02-2013, 03:19 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
So over 200 games is not a decent sample size, as 3 75+ point seasons are not either (each year with different linemates)... and Hartnell, Voracek and JVR having better seasons with G than any other flyer (and in two cases any other year in their career) and Jagr getting less points without G and G more points without Jagr, and Powe and Asham having great years with him, and Carter having arguably his 2nd best year with G are all coincidence and either too small a sample size, or don't count because players were developing, and the rest of the players in the league are not a valid comparison?
Hartnel =was because of Jagr
Jake they did not play together long enough to ease all the time they looked bad together.
Jagr= who was his center once G was out? An even more overrated player schene or Danny?
Powel & Asham = they usually play with 3rd\4th line players. I'd hope there would be some improved numbers. So if that's you answer, Powel & Asham???

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11-02-2013, 03:20 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by King Forsberg View Post
No one wants Claude Giroux? Now we can establish that you have no credibility. You are the one manipulating numbers. How can the same sample size be too small for one instance and large enough to make an asinine argument at the same time? You haven't showed me or anyone anything except that you shouldn't be taken seriously.
Not at 8 mill for 8 years...

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11-02-2013, 03:22 PM
  #273
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Im done. Your bullheadishness has worn me down. Enjoy the season. Don't get made if I make a G is overrated comment after most games

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11-02-2013, 03:33 PM
  #274
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Multiple people arguing against him saying he is wrong, yet calls someone bullheaded.....

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11-02-2013, 03:41 PM
  #275
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Im done. Your bullheadishness has worn me down. Enjoy the season. Don't get made if I make a G is overrated comment after most games
so Giroux sucks now because of a bad 12 game stretch? one where he's coming off a hand injury and had no training camp?

good to know. glad you aren't the GM.

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