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Old
11-03-2013, 11:58 AM
  #76
Teezax
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Not ready to admit that yet, but i'm on board with the whole "we lost the JVR" trade

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11-03-2013, 01:04 PM
  #77
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I agree. I don't understand why we had to gut the team after one disappointing season following a SCF loss in the prior season. If we had held onto Carter, Richards, Gagne, JVR, and Bobrovsky, we'd be in a much better position than we are now. It's embarrassing that three of our former forwards won the Stanley Cup and the goalie won the Vezina immediately after we traded them. Meanwhile, we are in the basement of the league, bought out the prized free agent acquisition we signed with the money we freed up from the deals, fired our coach, and forced a young star into the captaincy before he was ready. I hate this team right now.
I watch the games and all, but honestly I am absolutely disinterested in the team that this organization put on ice. Homer and Snider should be ashamed.

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11-03-2013, 01:43 PM
  #78
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I still do both trades all day, every day.

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11-03-2013, 01:43 PM
  #79
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After originally being against it;I do the Carter trade again 7 days of the week, 365 days of the year.

Was never for and still never trade our captain. Clear as day the guy was a high impact player and overall the most complete player we acquired since Lindros.

Simmonds is good, but he is a dime a dozen type player. Really lacks in the puck handling element in his game.

Schenn is also a solid player. However he lacks a key element of the game, that being being able to finish. Kid can't seem to hit the wide open net from the goal crease.

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11-03-2013, 01:45 PM
  #80
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We didn't lose the trade. Simmonds and Voracek have more points on their own than Carter and Richards, that's without adding Couturier, Schenn and Grossmann.

It's attitude that's the problem here. Nobody seems to want to play.

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11-03-2013, 01:49 PM
  #81
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The Carter/Richards trade isn't what's killing us. It's the Pronger trade (and subsequent injury).

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11-03-2013, 01:57 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
We didn't lose the trade. Simmonds and Voracek have more points on their own than Carter and Richards, that's without adding Couturier, Schenn and Grossmann.
And sadly, that's the one element that fans continually point to to justify the trade. I guess if that was the case, a player like Mike Richards would never make a Canadian Olympic team because there'll always be more than 13 Canadian NHL players at forward ahead of him in the scoring race (right now he's number 29). And if you think that Simmonds, Courterier and Schenn will ever be considered as Olympic material, then I've got a piece of swamp I'll sell you. Sorry chum, it's more than just beating everybody else out in scoring that makes a complete winning hockey player.

With your logic we might as well just give the Stanley Cup to either Tampa Bay or Pittsburgh cause, sure as heck, Crosby, Malkin, St Louis and Stamkos will all be in the top 10 in scoring this year.

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11-03-2013, 02:02 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
We didn't lose the trade. Simmonds and Voracek have more points on their own than Carter and Richards, that's without adding Couturier, Schenn and Grossmann.

It's attitude that's the problem here. Nobody seems to want to play.
stop looking at point totals. there's far more to players than just that. Carter was the team's #1 sniper, something the team desperately needs right now, and Richards is one of the top 2way forwards in the game. Carter was good defensively too. Simmonds, Voracek and Schenn all suck defensively.

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11-03-2013, 02:02 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
The Carter/Richards trade isn't what's killing us. It's the Pronger trade (and subsequent injury).
ill agree with that, the injury that is.
we havent had any team identity since carter/richards left and pronger got injured.
were a bunch of random pieces that dont mesh well

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11-03-2013, 02:38 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by bauer View Post
stop looking at point totals. there's far more to players than just that. Carter was the team's #1 sniper, something the team desperately needs right now, and Richards is one of the top 2way forwards in the game. Carter was good defensively too. Simmonds, Voracek and Schenn all suck defensively.
Voracek and Schenn don't suck defensively, they are certainly above average based on the last two years, Brayden played some pretty tough minutes last year and did ok, and Voracek is underrated in that department since coming to Philly, he is not a natural, but works very hard to make up for it defensively... but yeh, they are not Richards level, and Carter was very sound defensively, albeit very quietly so.

Simmonds is probably average around the league. But has looked poor at times this year.

I agree with the sentiment though, the defence on the front end is not as evenly rounded, although Couts does redress a lot of that... if offensive production was not a part of the Selke race he would have been in the running last year, and has been just as impressive this year.

So far this year (albeit in a small smaple, but Couts should keep it up, he has for two years now) him, Steen, Bryan Little, Bolland, Jordan Staal and Bergeron have arguably been a class above every other centre in the league defensively.

Couts has been better than Richards almost certainly in the last few years from a purely defensive standpoint.

But yeh, due to Couts having such a heavy workload and not breaking out offensively (expected with the silly workload) while him and Giroux have a similar defensive workload between them (as those two have taken Carter and Richies mins, not Schenn, Simmonds and V) as Carter and Richie had there is a loss of points compared to them... and there is more worry about line matching now.

But if the offence was producing like it has the last two years this would not be a discussion now really. That is the crux for me.

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Old
11-03-2013, 02:47 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by SilkyMitts View Post
ill agree with that, the injury that is.
we havent had any team identity since carter/richards left and pronger got injured.
were a bunch of random pieces that dont mesh well
Pretty much this.

Closest thing we had to a piece holding it all together was Jagr seemlingly, and we let that walk out the door.

I think Carles importance in the locker room was drastically underrated as well.

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11-03-2013, 03:37 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Voracek and Schenn don't suck defensively, they are certainly above average based on the last two years, Brayden played some pretty tough minutes last year and did ok, and Voracek is underrated in that department since coming to Philly, he is not a natural, but works very hard to make up for it defensively... but yeh, they are not Richards level, and Carter was very sound defensively, albeit very quietly so.

Simmonds is probably average around the league. But has looked poor at times this year.

I agree with the sentiment though, the defence on the front end is not as evenly rounded, although Couts does redress a lot of that... if offensive production was not a part of the Selke race he would have been in the running last year, and has been just as impressive this year.

So far this year (albeit in a small smaple, but Couts should keep it up, he has for two years now) him, Steen, Bryan Little, Bolland, Jordan Staal and Bergeron have arguably been a class above every other centre in the league defensively.

Couts has been better than Richards almost certainly in the last few years from a purely defensive standpoint.

But yeh, due to Couts having such a heavy workload and not breaking out offensively (expected with the silly workload) while him and Giroux have a similar defensive workload between them (as those two have taken Carter and Richies mins, not Schenn, Simmonds and V) as Carter and Richie had there is a loss of points compared to them... and there is more worry about line matching now.

But if the offence was producing like it has the last two years this would not be a discussion now really. That is the crux for me.
Especially Couturier. If he were doing the things he's doing on a better team he would at least be racking up assists.

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Old
11-04-2013, 12:41 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
The Carter/Richards trade isn't what's killing us. It's the Pronger trade (and subsequent injury).
You only say this because Pronger is done, if he was on the ice right now this team wouldn't have the problems it does plus you would have some solid D.
Don't be messing with Pronger, he has proven to be one of the best in the NHL before his injury.
Trading away Richie was wrong, you don't trade the captain! Carter was like Briere only showed up in the post season if he could stay healthy, no loss there.

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11-04-2013, 02:40 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Bryzard of Oz View Post
I'd still do the Carter trade in a heartbeat. I was never a fan of the cannon trade
The only thing Carter did that I enjoyed watching was score short handed goals. Both Carter and Richards were awesome on the PK, now, it's dreadful.

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11-04-2013, 02:43 PM
  #90
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The only thing Carter did that I enjoyed watching was score short handed goals. Both Carter and Richards were awesome on the PK, now, it's dreadful.
The Flyer's PK is actually very good, and it was last year as well. They have a lot of forwards that can kill penalties effectively. It's part of what made Talbot expendable.

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11-04-2013, 02:49 PM
  #91
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The only thing Carter did that I enjoyed watching was score short handed goals. Both Carter and Richards were awesome on the PK, now, it's dreadful.
Flyers PK is 9th in the league 84%, what are you talking about?
The PP is atrocious, its like 9%

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11-04-2013, 03:05 PM
  #92
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Now we lost the trade? When Simmonds was scoring 29 and Couturier was scoring 12 (as an 18 yr old and shutting down Malkinstein) and Voracek scored 50 in year 1 and followed it up with another 46 in a shortened season. Nobody seemed to have a problem.

Now that they are all collectively not scoring in the first 12 games of the season, the decision has been made 100% now. They lost on both of these deals.

I'm really glad nobody hear rushes to judgement.

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Old
11-04-2013, 03:15 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Now we lost the trade? When Simmonds was scoring 29 and Couturier was scoring 12 (as an 18 yr old and shutting down Malkinstein) and Voracek scored 50 in year 1 and followed it up with another 46 in a shortened season. Nobody seemed to have a problem.

Now that they are all collectively not scoring in the first 12 games of the season, the decision has been made 100% now. They lost on both of these deals.

I'm really glad nobody hear rushes to judgement.
This ^

C'mon....Flyers have gotten decent returns thus far....problem has been Holmgren not assembling the correct pieces (taking the next step) to support his initial good move. In fact he's been a miserable failure since the trade..

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11-04-2013, 03:41 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Now we lost the trade? When Simmonds was scoring 29 and Couturier was scoring 12 (as an 18 yr old and shutting down Malkinstein) and Voracek scored 50 in year 1 and followed it up with another 46 in a shortened season. Nobody seemed to have a problem.

Now that they are all collectively not scoring in the first 12 games of the season, the decision has been made 100% now. They lost on both of these deals.

I'm really glad nobody hear rushes to judgement.
once again stop with the points. it's not all about points. this team has no sniper anymore, which is why it's struggling to score goals, shut down G and the team blows. i was ok with the Carter deal at the time cause we had JVR. we had that potential sniper replacement, but then Homer went and traded him. and Richards incredible 2way play is sorely missed. Richards could shut down an opposing teams top lines and get 60+ points while doing it. we have no one even close to that anymore.

it's not just about getting guys who can put up points. you need players to fit certain roles. this team is a mess now. roles aren't clearly defined. Simmonds for example should not be pressured to be one the teams best scorers, when he's a 2nd line grinder. he's a good complimentary player, but when you rely on him to be one of your go-to guys, then you're in big trouble. and Couturier can play well defensively, but when his line is on the ice they have very little chance at scoring.

do not underestimate the importance of having a true goal scorer on your team and a solid 2way player. every successful team has them. but obviously Homer doesn't get it. we had both once and Homer blew it all up. he really scewed up what was once an incredibly deep team.

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11-04-2013, 03:42 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Now we lost the trade? When Simmonds was scoring 29 and Couturier was scoring 12 (as an 18 yr old and shutting down Malkinstein) and Voracek scored 50 in year 1 and followed it up with another 46 in a shortened season. Nobody seemed to have a problem.

Now that they are all collectively not scoring in the first 12 games of the season, the decision has been made 100% now. They lost on both of these deals.

I'm really glad nobody hear rushes to judgement.
Get your logic and level headed-ness out of here, how dare you!

Good day, sir!

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Old
11-04-2013, 03:57 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
You only say this because Pronger is done, if he was on the ice right now this team wouldn't have the problems it does plus you would have some solid D.
Don't be messing with Pronger, he has proven to be one of the best in the NHL before his injury.
Trading away Richie was wrong, you don't trade the captain! Carter was like Briere only showed up in the post season if he could stay healthy, no loss there.
Let's not overlook, however, that Pronger was already showing big signs of wear and tear before the eye injury / concussion. He was slower, too, because of the knees and was certainly not playing at his high level. Pronger definitely would be helping the blue line right now, but it may not have been All-Star / future HoF calibre.

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11-04-2013, 03:59 PM
  #97
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Yeah. Everyone was already concerned about Pronger before he got hurt. While he was still the best dman on the team and playing at a very high level, it was still noticeably worse than what we had been accustomed to.

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11-04-2013, 04:00 PM
  #98
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Let's not overlook, however, that Pronger was already showing big signs of wear and tear before the eye injury / concussion. He was slower, too, because of the knees and was certainly not playing at his high level. Pronger definitely would be helping the blue line right now, but it may not have been All-Star / future HoF calibre.
Don't bring unpleasant truths into this....but yeah Pronger was showing some real signs of wear and tear...back surgery, wrist, knees...to the point that he was getting frustrated and saying he didn't know what was going on. Sadly Pronger was in denial over age progression....

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11-04-2013, 05:12 PM
  #99
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So far this year (albeit in a small smaple, but Couts should keep it up, he has for two years now) him, Steen, Bryan Little, Bolland, Jordan Staal and Bergeron have arguably been a class above every other centre in the league defensively.
Bolland's certainly solid defensively, but he's not even the best (or second best) defensive center on the Leafs. McClement puts him to shame in that department, and Bozak is just as good in every defensive area as Bolland, but is better on face-offs.

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11-04-2013, 05:17 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
You only say this because Pronger is done, if he was on the ice right now this team wouldn't have the problems it does plus you would have some solid D.
Don't be messing with Pronger, he has proven to be one of the best in the NHL before his injury.
Trading away Richie was wrong, you don't trade the captain! Carter was like Briere only showed up in the post season if he could stay healthy, no loss there.
Yeah, how dare Carter only produce like his usual self when he wasn't playing on a broken foot or something. Bum!

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