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Old
11-03-2013, 09:27 PM
  #101
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It's not Schenn's fault he has to play with Streit, Streit or Kimmo should be scratched based on their play but won't be for some reason

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11-03-2013, 09:34 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not at the time. I still think he can develop into a top shut down dman (hell, he was arguably our best last season). But you don't get young defenseman with high potential in free agency or by trading peanuts unless you get really lucky. The Flyers needed a high ceiling young defender and that's what they got. Whether he reaches that high ceiling is yet to be seen, but I'm certainly not throwing in the towel on a 24 year old kid, who hasn't played nearly as bad as HFBoards wants you to think.
Yeah, I don't see this high potential LSchenn has. I really can't. This is for both Schenns, although with Brayden at least I can see some skill. Both really lack hockey sense though, which will prevent them from becoming what a lot people think they can be IMO.

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11-03-2013, 09:41 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
Yeah, I don't see this high potential LSchenn has. I really can't. This is for both Schenns, although with Brayden at least I can see some skill. Both really lack hockey sense though, which will prevent them from becoming what a lot people think they can be IMO.
They were both top five picks...how do you not see potential? You may not think they will reach their potential, but when the Flyers acquired them, they certainly had high potential. Brayden is just 22, and Luke 24. There is plenty of room for them to grow and plenty of time for them to grow.

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11-03-2013, 10:14 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
They were both top five picks...how do you not see potential? You may not think they will reach their potential, but when the Flyers acquired them, they certainly had high potential. Brayden is just 22, and Luke 24. There is plenty of room for them to grow and plenty of time for them to grow.
What make's Luke ceiling so high? He's not a good skater, he has well below average puck skills, he's maxed out physically, and his decision making leaves a lot to be desired. I just think some people are holding on to false hope at this point. I'm not saying the guy isn't an NHL defenseman, but reading some of the comments I can do nothing but shake my head. His draft position is irrelevant at this point of his career.

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11-04-2013, 12:05 AM
  #105
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I'm not even sure how anyone could think that. How could you not care what their upside is when we're talking about young players? Every impact player in the came started out as a young player with "upside".
A guy can have all the potential in the world. If he never gets to play up to that potential, but is getting outplayed by guys with supposedly lower upside, I'd take those guys over him any day. That doesn't mean that I'm only looking at current and past performance when evaluating players, I'm just saying in general. At a certain point you just have to make a judgement call, whether you think a player will actually reach their "potential" (funny word, that) or not.

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11-04-2013, 12:06 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Hardnell View Post
It's not Schenn's fault he has to play with Streit, Streit or Kimmo should be scratched based on their play but won't be for some reason
Honestly, I came to post the same thing. I think Streit has been a bit better, though. But Kimmo is getting outperformed by everyone on our D at this point. Which is sad.

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11-04-2013, 01:06 AM
  #107
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I think its consistency issues with Luke. He looked pretty solid last season, this year he isnt as focused and appears a step slower than normal. Both Schenns need to increase their quickness. I dont think you can trade either one right now and get the potential they both have.

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11-04-2013, 01:07 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
Honestly, I came to post the same thing. I think Streit has been a bit better, though. But Kimmo is getting outperformed by everyone on our D at this point. Which is sad.
He should probably be getting only 10+ minutes until Berube is convinced hes playing better.

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11-04-2013, 01:33 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not at the time. I still think he can develop into a top shut down dman (hell, he was arguably our best last season). But you don't get young defenseman with high potential in free agency or by trading peanuts unless you get really lucky. The Flyers needed a high ceiling young defender and that's what they got. Whether he reaches that high ceiling is yet to be seen, but I'm certainly not throwing in the towel on a 24 year old kid, who hasn't played nearly as bad as HFBoards wants you to think.
I think tho we are nearing that point in Luke's career in where we will have to accept who he is. He certainly has had his flashes where he has been really good but then we have seen his game go the other way. I think he can be a good NHL defenseman. I just think at times he tries to do too much and thats what gets him into trouble.
Is he a bust? no I dont think he is but I also dont think hes the defenseman that he was hyped to be.
When he was drafted Leaf fans wanted to believe the hype. remember when Pierre Mcguire just about creamed his pants when the Leafs drafted him. ERASER!!!!!!!!!

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11-04-2013, 03:24 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
What make's Luke ceiling so high? He's not a good skater, he has well below average puck skills, he's maxed out physically, and his decision making leaves a lot to be desired.
You just answered your question.
All those things can be improved and partly will improve just by sheer experience.
He'll never be a speedster, but if he would be lighter like last season and would work consecutive off-season on his agility (not top end speed) he would probably be an average skater.
He does not have below average puck skills. His passing per example is probably the second best on this team. But again, carrying the puck can be taught and it has a lot to do with composure, which comes over time. Not everyone can be OEL.
Same could be said about decision making.

I think we forget for too often how young Luke still is. There are defenders, really good ones to, who haven't played a single NHL game his age. For a defender like him experience is key. He needs to continue on learning things like positioning and what to do in certain situations.

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11-04-2013, 03:58 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
You just answered your question.
All those things can be improved and partly will improve just by sheer experience.
He'll never be a speedster, but if he would be lighter like last season and would work consecutive off-season on his agility (not top end speed) he would probably be an average skater.
He does not have below average puck skills. His passing per example is probably the second best on this team. But again, carrying the puck can be taught and it has a lot to do with composure, which comes over time. Not everyone can be OEL.
Same could be said about decision making.

I think we forget for too often how young Luke still is. There are defenders, really good ones to, who haven't played a single NHL game his age. For a defender like him experience is key. He needs to continue on learning things like positioning and what to do in certain situations.
I'm down on Luke because I can't separate him in my mind form the JVR trade (for the sake of intillectual honesty, I have to openly own that bias). I also disagreed with you pretty stubbornly in the other thread. So when I read that last post, and I said to myself, you know those are actually fair and not unimportant points, I felt it merited me giving you and Luke credit.

I don't think he's ever going to be a very good/special player, but I do think since he got here his mobility has improved a fair bit and he could be a serviceable minute-eater type (I'm thinking Scuderi in 2009). He's not the **** show on skates that he gets made out to be. There are times when he looks slow to me, but slow as in indecisive, not slow as in Hal Gill slow. That'll improve with comfort and experience.

You can line swap forwards much more than pairings IMO. It's more of a talent based, play-making position. Defense is more cerebral, and I feel like increased familiarity consistency would go a long way to help the current group's effectiveness on the break out, Luke included. I wish they had more consisent pairings, I think it would help the breakout tremendously.

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11-04-2013, 04:09 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I wish they had more consisent pairings, I think it would help the breakout tremendously.
I know it will be an unpopular comment but I thought Hal Gill had the best passes to get out of our zone against NJ. Maybe a Vet like him is worth having around for someone like Luke?

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11-04-2013, 04:16 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by OzFlyer View Post
I know it will be an unpopular comment but I thought Hal Gill had the best passes to get out of our zone against NJ. Maybe a Vet like him is worth having around for someone like Luke?
I actually think Hal Gill is a somewhat underrated defenseman. Him and Scuderi did yeoman's work for the Pens in 2009 when they won. Pretty solid player, aside from letting tiny-ass Danny Briere body him up for a goal one game (Gill is damn near 8'6'' tall on skates, that can't happen). I'll never forget that and I bring it up every chance I get because it was hilarious and so damn awesome to see at the time.


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11-04-2013, 05:47 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
What make's Luke ceiling so high? He's not a good skater, he has well below average puck skills, he's maxed out physically, and his decision making leaves a lot to be desired. I just think some people are holding on to false hope at this point. I'm not saying the guy isn't an NHL defenseman, but reading some of the comments I can do nothing but shake my head. His draft position is irrelevant at this point of his career.
I'm talking about at the time of the trade. People are saying the JvR trade was a bad one blah blah blah Homer is stupid. At the time however, Luke was 21 or 22 IIRC, and still had that high potential. Given the passage of time I suppose his may not be as high, but I don't know if it is as low as many of people are saying. He is 24. Most defenders don't hit their stride until 26-27. He's got time.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I think tho we are nearing that point in Luke's career in where we will have to accept who he is. He certainly has had his flashes where he has been really good but then we have seen his game go the other way. I think he can be a good NHL defenseman. I just think at times he tries to do too much and thats what gets him into trouble.
Is he a bust? no I dont think he is but I also dont think hes the defenseman that he was hyped to be.
When he was drafted Leaf fans wanted to believe the hype. remember when Pierre Mcguire just about creamed his pants when the Leafs drafted him. ERASER!!!!!!!!!
A 24 year old he is who he is? Come on. The guy has a couple years before he's at that point. Is he going to be a Norris trophy guy? No, I think we all know that. Can he still be a top pair guy? I don't see why not.

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11-04-2013, 07:03 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
They were both top five picks...how do you not see potential? You may not think they will reach their potential, but when the Flyers acquired them, they certainly had high potential. Brayden is just 22, and Luke 24. There is plenty of room for them to grow and plenty of time for them to grow.
I still see a lack of hockey sense. Without that they more than likely will not be able to put it all together consistently. Luke has been in the league since he was 18 and is still struggling with consistency. I said it before, I will say it again. LSchenn needs to get more consistent. Being good one year and bad the next, is not consistent at all. If that pattern continues, I don't believe Luke has hockey sense and can become a top shutdown dman.

Basically, his hockey sense limits his potential from my view.

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11-04-2013, 07:49 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
You just answered your question.
All those things can be improved and partly will improve just by sheer experience.
He'll never be a speedster, but if he would be lighter like last season and would work consecutive off-season on his agility (not top end speed) he would probably be an average skater.
He does not have below average puck skills. His passing per example is probably the second best on this team. But again, carrying the puck can be taught and it has a lot to do with composure, which comes over time. Not everyone can be OEL.
Same could be said about decision making.

I think we forget for too often how young Luke still is. There are defenders, really good ones to, who haven't played a single NHL game his age. For a defender like him experience is key. He needs to continue on learning things like positioning and what to do in certain situations.
If you honestly believe he can and will improve in all those areas I don't know what to tell you. Yes you can improve skating to a certain extent, but Luke will still never be considered a good skater. Even if you say he's the "2nd best passer on the team" he still hesitates whether it's making an outlet pass or shooting on net. You have to see that.

Everyone says he's still young, but physically he's in the prime of his career. I don't see him overcoming those limitations. Combine that with his hockey sense and I'm just not seeing this unlimited ceiling some people suggest. Again, he has a role in the NHL, but his skill set is easily replaceable.

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11-04-2013, 08:58 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
If you honestly believe he can and will improve in all those areas I don't know what to tell you. Yes you can improve skating to a certain extent, but Luke will still never be considered a good skater. Even if you say he's the "2nd best passer on the team" he still hesitates whether it's making an outlet pass or shooting on net. You have to see that.

Everyone says he's still young, but physically he's in the prime of his career. I don't see him overcoming those limitations. Combine that with his hockey sense and I'm just not seeing this unlimited ceiling some people suggest. Again, he has a role in the NHL, but his skill set is easily replaceable.
24 is really not physically your prime.

It is around 27-32 if injuries do not affect you in sport.

Men peak in terms of strength, muscle mass in their late 20's and early 30's, not to mention maturity and sport specific IQ gained by then.

Yes, your fast twitch muscles start to decrease after about 25... hence why most players 'scoring' peaks are usually in the 23-27 range, but scoring peak does not denote when you were best as a player, even among goalscorers (Selanne, Hull, Sakic, Modano, Jagr... even though they all peaked point wise earlier on in careers they were all certainly 'better' all round players as they got older) and for D men these fast twitch muscles do not really have as much an effect due to the role they play and positions they are in most of the time.

The average rookie D man in the NHL this decade and last has been around 22... the average age of NHL d men is 28. The average age of defencemen is also invariably higher in the playoffs (by about 6months, may not seem large but is over 30 teams and over 200 players)... indicating D groups on good teams are older.

When were Lidstrom, Chara, Pronger, Stevens, Niedermayer, MacInnes, Bourque, Blake, Desjardins, Kimmo etc all at their all round best?

In was not when they were under 25.

Lidstrom (29-35)
Chara (28-present(36)
Pronger (26-36)
Stevens (27-36)
Niedermayer (27-36)
MacInnes (26-39)
Bourque (26-35)
Blake (28-36)
Desjardins (27-32)
Kimmo (27-36)

Obviously this is subjective... but I imagine if you ask them, most fans, coaches etc they would support this, especially among D men. And even though these guys were all better than Schenn will ever be it is not sheer coincidence that just as they are good mean they peaked later!

Even guys like Gill, Hatcher, Smith, Foote, who were never really offensive D men, were all almost certainly at their best after the age of 26-27 up until injuries or mid 30's.

Luke Schenn may never be more than a #4... but saying his physical peak and career prime now is not really true.

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11-04-2013, 09:02 AM
  #118
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Dr. Appleyard announcing school is in session.

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11-04-2013, 09:56 AM
  #119
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Yea and to those who say you haven't seen anything from schenn, what were you saying about him at the end of last year? He was the only healthy d man with a bunch if call ups and he looked great and very capable of handling top pair minutes.

As far as schenn I think he will come into form in the next few years. he has missed so many open nets in the last two years, one would think those start to go in. I think right now he is playoff passively. Once he gets fire going he will be better.

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11-04-2013, 10:01 AM
  #120
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Yea and to those who say you haven't seen anything from schenn, what were you saying about him at the end of last year? He was the only healthy d man with a bunch if call ups and he looked great and very capable of handling top pair minutes.

As far as schenn I think he will come into form in the next few years. he has missed so many open nets in the last two years, one would think those start to go in. I think right now he is playoff passively. Once he gets fire going he will be better.
First, Appleyard I love your work.

And TKP I agree. If you'd read some Flyers fans' opinions, Luke Schenn is the ******* love-child of Lukas Krajicek and Charlie Huddy. The dude really isn't bad and to be honest, he looks pretty good most of the time I see him. I don't get what a lot of fans are watching.

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11-04-2013, 10:10 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
First, Appleyard I love your work.

And TKP I agree. If you'd read some Flyers fans' opinions, Luke Schenn is the ******* love-child of Lukas Krajicek and Charlie Huddy. The dude really isn't bad and to be honest, he looks pretty good most of the time I see him. I don't get what a lot of fans are watching.
Yea he is solid. Playing his game. He's not subban but he's not supposed to be.

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11-04-2013, 10:11 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
First, Appleyard I love your work.

And TKP I agree. If you'd read some Flyers fans' opinions, Luke Schenn is the ******* love-child of Lukas Krajicek and Charlie Huddy. The dude really isn't bad and to be honest, he looks pretty good most of the time I see him. I don't get what a lot of fans are watching.
Apparently the same thing Berube is seeing.

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11-04-2013, 10:11 AM
  #123
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Luke Schenn's problem IMO is that he doesn't want to except what his role is at the NHL level and tries to do too much. If he played a simpler game like Grossman (chip pucks out, safe passes up the wall, controlled physicality) he would be very effective as a shut down defenseman, just like he was last year. The problem is he tries to do low percentage passes up the middle and huge checks that his skill and skating ability do not allow him to make consistently at the NHL level. I don't know if this is a youth problem or a stubborn problem of a guy who just doesn't want to except the limitations of his talent.

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11-04-2013, 10:13 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
First, Appleyard I love your work.

And TKP I agree. If you'd read some Flyers fans' opinions, Luke Schenn is the ******* love-child of Lukas Krajicek and Charlie Huddy. The dude really isn't bad and to be honest, he looks pretty good most of the time I see him. I don't get what a lot of fans are watching.
This, I think it safe to say that most fans just have a bug up their ass cause JVR is flourishing in TO (this year and last). If we acquired Luke almost any other way we wouldn't be having this conversation IMO. Sure he has flaws but some are actually suggesting that he if in fact worse then Mez, Gill and should be in the minors.

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11-04-2013, 10:14 AM
  #125
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Did they ever really give an explanation as to why Schenn was scratched? I am kind of hoping they're playing Gill to get him looks from other teams and get something for him. If they don't trade Gill I won't mind, he's good to have as insurance, but scratching Schenn for Gill seems nuts if it was just to play Gill.

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