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What player got the better trade return, Vanek or Pominville?

View Poll Results: What player had the better return?
Thomas Vanek 26 44.07%
Jason Pominville 24 40.68%
Both trades had the same exact value 9 15.25%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-04-2013, 09:20 AM
  #26
JPurp26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
that's outside the spectrum of the trade...

they paid an very very very high price for what i think is a moderate upgrade from moulson to vanek...

in his last full season with tavares, moulson put up 69...
last years stats prorated to 82 games, was on a 76 pt pace

how many more points does vanek need to score to make that upgrade worth a 1st and 2nd?

crazy awesome fleecing for us...
Also agreed. Moulson is similar to Vanek and may not have quite as good of hands but he still produces. Moulson's attitude and hard-working demeanor, plus the 1st and 2nd, are just whipped cream and a cherry on top to the deal.

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11-04-2013, 09:23 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Depends on what Moulson gets you.

If Moulson gets you a late first, say, I'll go with Pominville, because of the draft year and, mostly, the extra year on his contract.
I think it depends on what happens with Moulson.

If they get a 1st for Moulson (especially if it's a 2016 1st), I'll lean towards the Vanek deal netting them more.

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11-04-2013, 09:38 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPurp26 View Post
Also agreed. Moulson is similar to Vanek and may not have quite as good of hands but he still produces. Moulson's attitude and hard-working demeanor, plus the 1st and 2nd, are just whipped cream and a cherry on top to the deal.
I think you have to also look a bit beyond the production of the individual players. In his few games so far in an Islanders uniform, Vanek is opening up a lot more space for Tavares, especially 5 on 5.

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11-04-2013, 09:38 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
At this point, I'd go with Vanek by a slim margin as Moulson -- an established NHL scoring line player -- is a more finished product than anything that came over in the Pominville deal. That said, when they trade Moulson, the additions fall into the same sort of futures category the Pominville deal returned. The dynamics of it will depend on how the players involved, or the players selected with the picks, are playing -- especially at the NHL level.
I completely agree with this. I look at it from a value at time of the trade with no considerations to the departing players contract status. 1st + 2nd mostly cancel out. Moulson > Larsson + Hackett, at this time. Whether or not they resign him I don't think is a reflection of the value of the trade, unless they knew they would not try to resign him when trading for him.

Larsson is still not a sure thing and Hackett even more so.

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11-04-2013, 10:28 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by msm29 View Post
I wonder if there were offers on the table for Vanek last year, and I wonder what Buffalo could've gotten relative to the Pominville deal.
Someone posted on another website during the summer that Darcy had a deal for Vanek if he wanted it ---> Moulson and a 1st.

Seems that he held out to get a 2nd thrown in.


Last edited by Jacob582: 11-04-2013 at 10:50 AM.
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11-04-2013, 10:34 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BowieSabresFan View Post
I think you have to also look a bit beyond the production of the individual players. In his few games so far in an Islanders uniform, Vanek is opening up a lot more space for Tavares, especially 5 on 5.
Of course,

We will see at the end of the year how this turns out.

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11-04-2013, 10:46 AM
  #32
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For what Vanek was bringing on the ice in a Sabres sweater, Moulson is a huge upgrade.


As for the trade, i didn't like getting Moulson, but after watching him play i think he can produce with any inmates because he excels in front of the net. They're pretty much even for me, but i really enjoy having larsson and Zadorov in the system, so I'll go with pominvilles return for now.

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11-04-2013, 10:54 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
I look at it from a value at time of the trade with no considerations to the departing players contract status.
I agree. I think that is how you need to value a trade this early in the game.

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11-04-2013, 11:02 AM
  #34
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Also not to be ignored is the Sabres willingness to pick up 20% of Vanek's salary. The hockey value to that money is likely expressed with one of those picks.

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11-04-2013, 11:13 AM
  #35
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Equal value. If Moulson doesnt re-sign then Pommer deal better.

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11-04-2013, 11:37 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JPurp26 View Post
Of course,

We will see at the end of the year how this turns out.
Very much this. Although they are separate deal I would like to see the the return, if any, Moulson brings as well as what the 1st and 2nd can get traded up to and or used as.

For now I'm leaning towards the Minnesota deal but not by much.

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11-04-2013, 01:26 PM
  #37
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Technically the two aren't 100% comparable because Pominville still had a year and Vanek is on his last year, so right off the bat if both were equal players, the return for Vanek should be expected to be less. Having said that, i think it evens out. Return for Poms was a bit better, but his value with the contract remaining was a bit better.

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11-04-2013, 02:10 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
Technically the two aren't 100% comparable because Pominville still had a year and Vanek is on his last year, so right off the bat if both were equal players, the return for Vanek should be expected to be less. Having said that, i think it evens out. Return for Poms was a bit better, but his value with the contract remaining was a bit better.
But people here told me Vanek was worth more in his final year....

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11-04-2013, 02:30 PM
  #39
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It's hard to say. Do we look at the return the day of, or in retrospect? Minnesota's first turning into pick #16 increases the return substantially, as does a #16 turning into Zadorov. Larsson is an NHLer, which is more than we can say for the Vanek picks.

Judging the Vanek return is a bit harder imo, unless we were to trade Moulson, because then we'd know what Moulson's value is. If Moulson returns a 1st rounder from a playoff team, the return would look fairly similar I think. If the return is about equal, then Vanek got the better return due to his contract status.

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11-04-2013, 02:41 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
It's hard to say. Do we look at the return the day of, or in retrospect? Minnesota's first turning into pick #16 increases the return substantially, as does a #16 turning into Zadorov. Larsson is an NHLer, which is more than we can say for the Vanek picks.

Judging the Vanek return is a bit harder imo, unless we were to trade Moulson, because then we'd know what Moulson's value is. If Moulson returns a 1st rounder from a playoff team, the return would look fairly similar I think. If the return is about equal, then Vanek got the better return due to his contract status.
For me:

Moulson > Hackett & Larsson
MIN 2013 1st > NYI 2014 1st
NYI 2015 2nd > MIN 2014 2nd

It's close. But, I expect Regier to flip Moulson for a piece or pieces that tilt things towards the Vanek trade.

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11-04-2013, 02:52 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Sin Cos Tan

Plurality method with elimination.

The only point I know on a perpendicular bisector...

Pominvanekville
Mind = Blown

well done

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11-04-2013, 03:23 PM
  #42
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sin cos tan



csc sec ctn

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11-04-2013, 03:43 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
If you look at the Pominville deal for what it was at the time of the trade, it was a 1st, next season's 2nd, Larsson and hackett.

Vanek got a (conditonal) 1st, next season's 2nd, and Moulson.

Vanek had less games left than Pominville but Buffalo covered more salary with a higher %, so that kinda evens out. But comparing Moulson to Larsson and Hackett, easily Vanek got the better return.

BUT...if you consider what Pominville's 1st got, a pick that slid up after Minny slid down the standings, and then ended up with a Zadorov sliding to that spot, that's quite an improvement on the original deal. So if Vanek's 1st can turn into a mid-teens pick and result in a high end prospect his return still wins. If not it might end up a tie, but I doubt it since Moulson will likely return another 1st or better.

I dont look at who was drafted---just where the expectation was of where the pick ended up.

At the time of the deal Minnesota looked to be a division winner so the first was expected to be mid 20s, the 2nd was expected to be mid 50s. Minnesota closed poorly thus the pick moved from mid 20s to 16.

The expectation on the Islanders pick this year is it will be 12-20, while the 2nd pick would more likley be in the low 50s.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsJimBob View Post
I think it depends on what happens with Moulson.

If they get a 1st for Moulson (especially if it's a 2016 1st), I'll lean towards the Vanek deal netting them more.
why a 2016? Id rather have a 2015. I want the rebuild to be short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Also not to be ignored is the Sabres willingness to pick up 20% of Vanek's salary. The hockey value to that money is likely expressed with one of those picks.
Dont see that much of a difference to be honest. 20% this year for Vanek this year < what was retained for Pominville.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
It's hard to say. Do we look at the return the day of, or in retrospect? Minnesota's first turning into pick #16 increases the return substantially, as does a #16 turning into Zadorov. Larsson is an NHLer, which is more than we can say for the Vanek picks.

I dont look at who you drafted with the pick. You didnt know where the pick would be so you estimate where you think it would be. The issue of who they drafted is really irrelevent in this.

Judging the Vanek return is a bit harder imo, unless we were to trade Moulson, because then we'd know what Moulson's value is. If Moulson returns a 1st rounder from a playoff team, the return would look fairly similar I think. If the return is about equal, then Vanek got the better return due to his contract status.
the 1st and 2nd wash out.

Its Moulson vs Hackett+ Larsson

If Moulson walks then the Vanek deal returns less. If Moulson returns a 1st + player/2nd then its worth more than Hackett + Larsson.

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11-04-2013, 03:50 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Djp View Post
why a 2016? Id rather have a 2015. I want the rebuild to be short.
Typo.

I meant 2015.

But, this rebuild isn't going to be short, IMO. I expect at least another horrible season.

And back-to-back years like this may feel like a decade.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
the 1st and 2nd wash out.

Its Moulson vs Hackett+ Larsson

If Moulson walks then the Vanek deal returns less. If Moulson returns a 1st + player/2nd then its worth more than Hackett + Larsson.
The only way Moulson walks is if he gets a season-ending injury and Regier literally can't move him at the deadline.

If Regier is thinking short rebuild like you talked about above, I could see the Sabres trying to extend Moulson as a Vanek-lite option as a top 6 winger. Especially if he clicks well with CoHo.

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11-04-2013, 03:56 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
the 1st and 2nd wash out.

Its Moulson vs Hackett+ Larsson

If Moulson walks then the Vanek deal returns less. If Moulson returns a 1st + player/2nd then its worth more than Hackett + Larsson.
That's basically what I said. If Moulson returns a 1st from a contender then that basically = Hackett + Larsson. Thus, if he returns more, then that deal returned more.

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11-04-2013, 04:20 PM
  #46
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I voted "same." I don't think it's exactly the same, as worded in the question, but close enough that I don't really care either way.

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11-04-2013, 04:31 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPurp26 View Post
Also agreed. Moulson is similar to Vanek and may not have quite as good of hands but he still produces. Moulson's attitude and hard-working demeanor, plus the 1st and 2nd, are just whipped cream and a cherry on top to the deal.
If you were an isles fan... how many more points does Vanek have to score (playing with JT), than Moulson (playing with Hodgson) for the trade NOT to look like a colossal blunder of assets?

Regier trade ***** Snow...

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11-04-2013, 04:46 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
If you were an isles fan... how many more points does Vanek have to score (playing with JT), than Moulson (playing with Hodgson) for the trade NOT to look like a colossal blunder of assets?

Regier trade ***** Snow...
It's not just how many more points Vanek scores. How many more points will JT get? Will the two of them produce together in the clutch?

We saw a glimpse of a playoff performer Vanek in the Boston series before Johnny ****chuk slashed his knee.

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11-04-2013, 05:32 PM
  #49
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It's not just how many more points Vanek scores. How many more points will JT get? Will the two of them produce together in the clutch?

We saw a glimpse of a playoff performer Vanek in the Boston series before Johnny ****chuk slashed his knee.
that's a good tag line for his career...

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11-04-2013, 07:42 PM
  #50
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Why has the MIN 1st already being touted as being better then the Isles? Sure, it's top 10 protected but if the Isles finish with the 11th pick and the Devs are in the top 10, then that pick is actually the #10 pick but unprotected. And hell, even with the condition I could see Snow giving up 7-9 and keeping 2015 just because of the chance for McDavid. For as much as I love Zads, the Sabres may end up getting a better player with the Isles 1st. A guy like Sam Bennett at #11 (#10) looks like a pick just as good if not better then Zadorov's. This all depends on how the Isles finish. I expect them to either be the 8th seed or out of the postseason and a Potential high pick. I don't think there is any doubt that the Isles 2014 1st we get is going to be before pick 16.

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