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11-05-2013, 10:25 AM
  #526
Slew Foots
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Since 2010:
Karlsson 0.853 Goals against/60 min. (reference point)
Weber 0.686 GA/60.
Letang 0.756 GA/60.
Pietrangelo 0.658 GA/60.
Subban: 0.650 GA/60.

So...we were saying? Those numbers are 5 on 5 btw.

You can tell when someone has a skewed opinion. It's really easy, they proclaim their subjective opinions as facts. It's the first sign that someone doesn't have much of an argument. They also tend to write FACT in capital letters in a confused attempt to seem like they have any semblance of an argument that's can be defended using stats and ...facts.
PK is a beast defensively. The false perception about PK that is prevalent around the league makes me sick.

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11-05-2013, 10:27 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
The thing with Subban is he is a RHS on the backend, much like a lot of Team Canada players who ARE better defensively. FACT.

If Subban was GREAT in his own zone, he'd get more D zone starts and face tougher lines in the games he plays. He doesn't. FACT.

I like what Subban brings to the game however I don't have him on my Team Canada list ahead of those who were invited. I see him as the #7 at most.
Allow me to join the chorus of people who strongly disagree with you. And you clearly don't understand the meaning of the word 'fact'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Since 2010:
Karlsson 0.853 Goals against/60 min. (reference point)
Weber 0.686 GA/60.
Letang 0.756 GA/60.
Pietrangelo 0.658 GA/60.
Subban: 0.650 GA/60.

So...we were saying? Those numbers are 5 on 5 btw.

You can tell when someone has a skewed opinion. It's really easy, they proclaim their subjective opinions as facts. It's the first sign that someone doesn't have much of an argument. They also tend to write FACT in capital letters in a confused attempt to seem like they have any semblance of an argument that's can be defended using stats and ...facts.
Interesting reference point. Reinforces what we already know... the guy is a stud defensively.

Team Canada's concern rests on his style of play. He's not a formulaic by the numbers guy. They're free to choose whoever they wish but if they want to win, they'd be wise to bring Subban. And not as a 6th defender either. The guy shouldn't just be along for the ride or just used on the PP. He should be used in a prominent role.

Where do we find those stats btw?


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 11-05-2013 at 10:36 AM.
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Old
11-05-2013, 10:35 AM
  #528
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Subban will be on team Canada. He can skate, hit, shoot, make plays and has the will and drive to win. Him and John Tavares will recreate what they did in WJ and be two impact players and leaders for the team.

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11-05-2013, 11:30 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Where do we find those stats btw?
Same place you find all the good Corsi-related stuff: Behind the Net (you have to compile individual years yourself to get "since 2010"-type results.

Also worth noting to all the Diaz haters, that he had by far the lowest GA/60 at ES of any of our defenders last year - yes, including Subban - and I believe holds the lowest mark so far this year, as well.

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11-05-2013, 11:32 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Same place you find all the good Corsi-related stuff: Behind the Net (you have to compile individual years yourself to get "since 2010"-type results.

Also worth noting to all the Diaz haters, that he had by far the lowest GA/60 at ES of any of our defenders last year - yes, including Subban - and I believe holds the lowest mark so far this year, as well.
That's crazy.

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11-05-2013, 11:36 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Same place you find all the good Corsi-related stuff: Behind the Net (you have to compile individual years yourself to get "since 2010"-type results.

Also worth noting to all the Diaz haters, that he had by far the lowest GA/60 at ES of any of our defenders last year - yes, including Subban - and I believe holds the lowest mark so far this year, as well.
Shows how useless Corsi is. Watching him it feels like Diaz is constantly chasing the puck in his own zone and losing puck battles. Although he is partnered with Josh "high off the glass or turnover in the slot" Gorges, so I'm sure that doesn't help.

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11-05-2013, 11:38 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Shows how useless Corsi is. Watching him it feels like Diaz is constantly chasing the puck in his own zone and losing puck battles. Although he is partnered with Josh "high off the glass or turnover in the slot" Gorges, so I'm sure that doesn't help.
How the hell do we filter this thing to show GA/60 mins?

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11-05-2013, 11:39 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Shows how useless Corsi is. Watching him it feels like Diaz is constantly chasing the puck in his own zone and losing puck battles. Although he is partnered with Josh "high off the glass or turnover in the slot" Gorges, so I'm sure that doesn't help.
That's not Corsi, that's just counting the number of goals that go in while he's on the ice, and dividing it by his ice time. Very relevant for any "20+ minute defender", whether 1st or 2nd pairing.

And my biggest problem is with Josh "turnover dangles in the neutral zone" Gorges. lol.

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11-05-2013, 11:39 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
How the hell do we filter this thing to show GA/60 mins?
You're looking for the On-Off Ice Plus Minus button in the top right.

edit: which is probably a white box by default, so get a check mark in there and "update results".
edit2: forgot to mention that '13/14 seems to be a copy of the '12/13 stats, so I referred to the +/- tab in NHL.com for this year's GA.


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11-05-2013, 11:48 AM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Shows how useless Corsi is. Watching him it feels like Diaz is constantly chasing the puck in his own zone and losing puck battles. Although he is partnered with Josh "high off the glass or turnover in the slot" Gorges, so I'm sure that doesn't help.
On the contrary, it might just show how bad you are at analyzing hockey at the NHL level. The only thing that matters is that goals for are greater than the goals against. We can take extra context into consideration like zone starts or quality of linemates/competition, but at the end of the day it's all to see whether you're a postiven influence on the score of the game. Even if it doesn't look pretty, it doesn't matter. Spacek was a pretty funny one for this. He always looked like an idiot, but iirc, he ended up doing a pretty good job most of his time here. Defensively, anyway.

And yeah, that's not corsi.

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11-05-2013, 11:54 AM
  #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You're looking for the On-Off Ice Plus Minus button in the top right.

edit: which is probably a white box by default, so get a check mark in there and "update results".
edit2: forgot to mention that '13/14 seems to be a copy of the '12/13 stats, so I referred to the +/- tab in NHL.com for this year's GA.
Okay, Diaz didn't show up... didn't realize I had to filter to fewer games for him as he only played 21.

Do these goals against factor in Empty Net Goals? If so offensive blueliners (Subban, Markov, Weber, Doughty etc...) will look a little worse right? Markov and Subban for example got pinged for this the other night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
That's not Corsi, that's just counting the number of goals that go in while he's on the ice, and dividing it by his ice time. Very relevant for any "20+ minute defender", whether 1st or 2nd pairing.

And my biggest problem is with Josh "turnover dangles in the neutral zone" Gorges. lol.
One thing about giveaway/takeaway stats is that they're unreliable when comparing them across teams. In one arena they're given out far more frequently than they will be in another. Can't really rely on that stat unless maybey you're looking at teammates who are scored by the same people all the time.

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11-05-2013, 11:55 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
We can take extra context into consideration like zone starts or quality of linemates/competition, but at the end of the day it's all to see whether you're a postiven influence on the score of the game...
... particularly in the role(s) you were asked to play. Move Diaz up to a 1st pairing, and the GA/60 will suffer, and he'll look more out of place, but on the 2nd pairing he is producing results, no matter how it looks to others. If others' play relegated him down to the 3rd pairing long term, it would probably make us look like an embarrassment of riches defensively. Is it a sustainable way/style of playing defense in today's game? Dunno. Has done it since he has been here and had a positive impact, and we only have a small window of time left until some of the younger guys get their name plaque in the dressing room anyway, so how much does it matter?

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11-05-2013, 11:57 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
On the contrary, it might just show how bad you are at analyzing hockey at the NHL level. The only thing that matters is that goals for are greater than the goals against. We can take extra context into consideration like zone starts or quality of linemates/competition, but at the end of the day it's all to see whether you're a postiven influence on the score of the game. Even if it doesn't look pretty, it doesn't matter. Spacek was a pretty funny one for this. He always looked like an idiot, but iirc, he ended up doing a pretty good job most of his time here. Defensively, anyway.

And yeah, that's not corsi.
Doesn't CORSI measure shots on vs against while a player is on the ice?

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11-05-2013, 11:58 AM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
... particularly in the role(s) you were asked to play. Move Diaz up to a 1st pairing, and the GA/60 will suffer, and he'll look more out of place, but on the 2nd pairing he is producing results, no matter how it looks to others. If others' play relegated him down to the 3rd pairing long term, it would probably make us look like an embarrassment of riches defensively. Is it a sustainable way/style of playing defense in today's game? Dunno. Has done it since he has been here and had a positive impact, and we only have a small window of time left until some of the younger guys get their name plaque in the dressing room anyway, so how much does it matter?
Well, there's no way I'd have him on the ice in the dying minutes of a game over PK.

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11-05-2013, 12:02 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Okay, Diaz didn't show up... didn't realize I had to filter to fewer games for him as he only played 21.

Do these goals against factor in Empty Net Goals? If so offensive blueliners (Subban, Markov, Weber, Doughty etc...) will look a little worse right? Markov and Subban for example got pinged for this the other night.
We have allowed 1 EN goal this year, and last year we allowed 2, if you think that will make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
One thing about giveaway/takeaway stats is that they're unreliable when comparing them across teams. In one arena they're given out far more frequently than they will be in another. Can't really rely on that stat unless maybey you're looking at teammates who are scored by the same people all the time.
Meh. Everyone plays in everyone's barn this year. By the time all is said and done, the magnitude of the numbers will say enough to forgive unreliability at the very specific level for league-wide comparison. I don't listen to anyone who starts and ends an argument with these stats anyway, as they're simply clues to style of play for those who might not actually watch each team at least once over the course of the season.

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11-05-2013, 12:04 PM
  #541
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Well, there's no way I'd have him on the ice in the dying minutes of a game over PK.
Well there's confirmation that you are, in fact, not Michel Therrien.

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11-05-2013, 12:04 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
We have allowed 1 EN goal this year, and last year we allowed 2, if you think that will make a difference.
With only ten games played it probably does.
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Well there's confirmation that you are, in fact, not Michel Therrien.
My previous posts weren't confirmation enough?

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11-05-2013, 12:12 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Doesn't CORSI measure shots on vs against while a player is on the ice?
It does, which is why I told the guy nobody was even talking about Corsi. Corsi (don't capitalize it, trust me) is just a metric that helps abstract possession by using shots against/for.

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11-05-2013, 12:18 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
... particularly in the role(s) you were asked to play. Move Diaz up to a 1st pairing, and the GA/60 will suffer, and he'll look more out of place, but on the 2nd pairing he is producing results, no matter how it looks to others. If others' play relegated him down to the 3rd pairing long term, it would probably make us look like an embarrassment of riches defensively. Is it a sustainable way/style of playing defense in today's game? Dunno. Has done it since he has been here and had a positive impact, and we only have a small window of time left until some of the younger guys get their name plaque in the dressing room anyway, so how much does it matter?
Another good example would be our fourth line early on. Nobody would say that White, Moen and Prust were all-stars, but they were pretty much destroying any 4th line competition they were facing, an embarrasment of riches, indeed.

Going back to Diaz, I think another problem is that people don't attribute any defensive value to d-men who can start the rush quickly and under pressure, which is nuts. Any time a d-man gets the puck out of our zone, and hopefully to a forward who takes it into the offensive zone, every second is one where the opposition cannot score on them. That's huge.

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11-05-2013, 12:19 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
It does, which is why I told the guy nobody was even talking about Corsi. Corsi (don't capitalize it, trust me) is just a metric that helps abstract possession by using shots against/for.
My bad dawg, whenever I see stats shown I automatically think Corsi now because it's been rammed down our throats so much.

Diaz has played well enough and he's far from the problem on the back end (Bouillon) but I'm just not sold on him as a top 4 yet by the struggles I've witnessed in his own zone.

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11-05-2013, 12:21 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Another good example would be our fourth line early on. Nobody would say that White, Moen and Prust were all-stars, but they were pretty much destroying any 4th line competition they were facing, an embarrasment of riches, indeed.

Going back to Diaz, I think another problem is that people don't attribute any defensive value to d-men who can start the rush quickly and under pressure, which is nuts.
Any time a d-man gets the puck out of our zone, and hopefully to a forward who takes it into the offensive zone, every second is one where the opposition cannot score on them. That's huge.
It goes back to what I've been saying all along... Our D is good at skating the puck out of trouble. The lead passes, the puck handling... that's all good. Where we run into problems is when we don't have the puck down low. We don't clear the crease well nor are we very good at winning the physical battles. That's definitely a weakness.

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11-05-2013, 12:22 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, there's no way I'd have him on the ice in the dying minutes of a game over PK.
Well that's where quality of opponents and zone starts come into the equation.

I'm not surprised about Diaz's number. I always found him to be pretty reliable defensively. He doesn't get beat, his positioning is always pretty good, rarely gets caught, and always manages to get the puck out. He doesn't win physical battles all the time, and it looks like he's stressed all the time, but he gets it done though.

PK is our best player, I'd rely on him for the toughest situations all the time.

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11-05-2013, 12:22 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
My bad dawg, whenever I see stats shown I automatically think Corsi now because it's been rammed down our throats so much.

Diaz has played well enough and he's far from the problem on the back end (Bouillon) but I'm just not sold on him as a top 4 yet by the struggles I've witnessed in his own zone.
I like him paired with Gorges or an Emelin type. I hated him and Markov together.

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11-05-2013, 12:26 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I like him paired with Gorges or an Emelin type. I hated him and Markov together.
Yeah Diaz isn't responsible enough to always be on the right side of the puck when Markov takes chances. I think he could be good with Emelin since they'd both be on their right sides and Gorges and Murray can play together which pushes booboo out.


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11-05-2013, 12:41 PM
  #550
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Since last season, PK Subban has been a better player than Drew Doughty, and more consistent as well.

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