HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Holmgren Deserves to get Fired

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-05-2013, 09:51 AM
  #201
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 3,354
vCash: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Heard that for years. When you turn over half the roster every year, it kind of rings hollow.
Every other year? that's a bit hyperbolic

Hiesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 09:57 AM
  #202
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
 
JDinkalage Morgoone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 308 Negra Arroyo Ln.
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 11,929
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
The NHLPA were extremely upset with Hartnell for signing that deal as they considered it weakened their position as he did not ask for more, as his previous 8 seasons in the NHL he had been 45-50 point plus player, and 9 of the 11 years in the NHL he had been in that range or above. The limited NMC for a 30 year old with almost 500 career points, an A on his chest and 5 years on the same team was also quite in line with what a lot of other teams do.

Frankly he had been one of the most consistent point producing wingers in the NHL in those ten years, and also brought a lot more to the table that just points. Even without the 67 point year he was getting that money.

Has he been disappointing since the contract?

Yes. Extremely, since his injury last year he has looked a different player.

But the contract when given was fair, I remember most people on here were very happy with it. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Again stop letting facts get in the way of people's arguments! You're a party pooper!

__________________
"Help was not promised, lovely girl. Only death."
JDinkalage Morgoone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 10:45 AM
  #203
whatthef
Failure is an Option
 
whatthef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Upper Darby
Country: United States
Posts: 4,612
vCash: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
The NHLPA were extremely upset with Hartnell for signing that deal as they considered it weakened their position as he did not ask for more, as his previous 8 seasons in the NHL he had been 45-50 point plus player, and 9 of the 11 years in the NHL he had been in that range or above. The limited NMC for a 30 year old with almost 500 career points, an A on his chest and 5 years on the same team was also quite in line with what a lot of other teams do.

Frankly he had been one of the most consistent point producing wingers in the NHL in those ten years, and also brought a lot more to the table that just points. Even without the 67 point year he was getting that money.

Has he been disappointing since the contract?

Yes. Extremely, since his injury last year he has looked a different player.

But the contract when given was fair, I remember most people on here were very happy with it. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Homer stupidly decided to negotiate Hartnell's contract extention after what at his age and with his skill set was pretty clearly a career year. There was still a year left on Hartnell's contract at the time. He should have waited and most likely would have been able to negotiate a more favorable contract. Sure you might risk losing him to FA but oh well he's not irreplaceable and not worth giving too much money/term. Hartnell is a good winger and can be a valuable piece to a team, but that is a terrible contact for a player of that type. He plays a physical game and considering his age that is going to start taking a toll on his production and time in the line up sooner rather than later. Even before injuries might take their toll on him it was safe to his production would drop he's not a natural goal scorer (Giroux would probably have 5 more assists so far this season if Hartnell could put a puck in an empty net) nor is he much of a playmaker. He gets his points because he plays hard and can grinned it out and has more skill than most players who play that type of game. It's not the cap hit per say it's more the six years and the NMC that make me hate the contract. There is the possibility of him earning it for the first 3 or 4 years but the the back end of this deal is probably going to be painful. I don't really care what the NHLPA though of the contract. They are too caught up in what players did in the past rather than what they're likely to do during the actual contract (it's not just them either it's GMs, agents, etc. who do this too) especially for contracts for players over 30 (who at start after they're 30).

whatthef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:00 AM
  #204
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatthef View Post
For the past two season he's failed to put together anything resembling a decent defensive corp.
The only issue with the D is a lack of a true #1 defender. That's something that timing and luck play into more than talent evaluation at the draft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Heard that for years. When you turn over half the roster every year, it kind of rings hollow.
Complete exaggeration.

StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:22 AM
  #205
ChiTownPhilly
Registered User
 
ChiTownPhilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: S Jersey near Philly
Country: United States
Posts: 285
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to ChiTownPhilly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
Homer has to be the next to go, if this fails.
Fixed it for ya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
gimme Hexy
Aaaaargh!

Good grief.

Haven't we tried leadership succession along the "Inside The Organization" route enough to know that it's about as effective for This Franchise's hockey-health as 19th C. royal-bloodlines are for circulatory health? Enough, already.

ChiTownPhilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:29 AM
  #206
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,422
vCash: 500
I wonder if Hinkie would work part time for the Flyers....he would do more in a limited role than Holmgren .

Not sure how people continue to endorse/defend Holmgren. This team has experienced way too much melodrama, turnover and underachievement particularly since the big trades.

Way too much turmoil. No business that operates in such a volatile way should be considered a model. Again..this is a results oriented business and since the big trades the results have been putrid..team has regressed not progressed. That is on the GM...period!

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:31 AM
  #207
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
Fixed it for ya.

Aaaaargh!

Good grief.

Haven't we tried leadership succession along the "Inside The Organization" route enough to know that it's about as effective for This Franchise's hockey-health as 19th C. royal-bloodlines are for circulatory health? Enough, already.
The best person for the job is the best person available regardless of their past relationship with the Flyers; however, I think people do get blinded because its Hextall.

StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:36 AM
  #208
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
I wonder if Hinkie would work part time for the Flyers....he would do more in a limited role than Holmgren .

Not sure how people continue to endorse/defend Holmgren. This team has experienced way too much melodrama, turnover and underachievement particularly since the big trades.

Way too much turmoil. No business that operates in such a volatile way should be considered a model. Again..this is a results oriented business and since the big trades the results have been putrid..team has regressed not progressed. That is on the GM...period!
The results have not been putrid, and you're complaining about the same guy that turned the last place team in the NHL into Cup finalists in a few years.

I'm not necessarily defending Holmgren as much as I am just not supporting an attitude that condemns everyone but the guys on the ice. If this team got their heads int he game they would be a decent team.

The team needs a #1 D, that's about it (real W for G would be nice, but not an absolute need to compete). How is another GM going to find one when one is not available.

Lots of teams would be happy as hell to have the F corps that Philly has.

StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:42 AM
  #209
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,839
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
I wonder if Hinkie would work part time for the Flyers....he would do more in a limited role than Holmgren .

Not sure how people continue to endorse/defend Holmgren. This team has experienced way too much melodrama, turnover and underachievement particularly since the big trades.

Way too much turmoil. No business that operates in such a volatile way should be considered a model. Again..this is a results oriented business and since the big trades the results have been putrid..team has regressed not progressed. That is on the GM...period!
There's also the way he completely and totally misread his personnel. Like...he hasn't even been close for years. He blew up the team and brought in young players (something he had to do because of a disastrous situation he created himself), not realizing Lavi isn't a good coach for development. That is something a small handful of posters here pointed out. He brought in a bunch of slow, stay at home dmen to play in a team and system designed for pretty much the opposite sort of player. Then he mistakenly believed that Lavi, despite ALL indications, would be able to adapt efficiently to his new roster and coach them well. That potential for failure and roster disparity was pointed out by more than a handful here, as it was pretty obvious at the time. Well, it wasn't obvious to Homer.

Whatever Homer's vision is, it's no longer working. It worked well when it was time to fix Clarke's mess when he brought in a new perspective, but that perspective has clearly become fogged and confused. It may well be time for a new vision before Homer confuses things even more. Hell, we don't even know for sure if the team thinks they're building or contending, or if there is a serious plan in place. My assumption is Hextall is that new perspective...a new brain in the mix to spice things up and dispel old, broken ideas and methods.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.

Last edited by Beef Invictus: 11-05-2013 at 11:54 AM.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:47 AM
  #210
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
The results have not been putrid, and you're complaining about the same guy that turned the last place team in the NHL into Cup finalists in a few years.

I'm not necessarily defending Holmgren as much as I am just not supporting an attitude that condemns everyone but the guys on the ice. If this team got their heads int he game they would be a decent team.

The team needs a #1 D, that's about it (real W for G would be nice, but not an absolute need to compete). How is another GM going to find one when one is not available.

Lots of teams would be happy as hell to have the F corps that Philly has.
I am so sick of the cup reference. Even Holmgren and Snider are on record saying that it was an anomaly of sorts and resulted in them overrating their team. Holmgren kept Stevens way too long and it almost cost them the playoffs that year if you recall. They made it by the skin of their teeth that year and then rode the wave which included a lot of help from Montreal.

I had no problems with him in his first year and then the year he made the Carter and Richards trades. In between those two stints he's been pretty damn bad....

Again are we seeing successful results? If we are I must be missing something. Like Meltzer said..ultimately the results are what matter. If people want to continue to make excuses for a loser who is staring at 2 years of not making the playoffs during his tenure and barely missed a third in 2010..then not sure what else to say.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:55 AM
  #211
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,839
vCash: 156
Oh! How could I forget? He also somehow, mysteriously, as a paid professional evaluator of hockey talent, managed to watch Michael ****ing Leighton for several months and come to the conclusion that he should be signed as the starting goalie. The effects of that signing make it probably the strongest contender for the worst signing in the cap era. Possibly even the last couple decades. Others may say the Bryz signing is worse, but the Bryz signing was just one of the results of Homer signing Leighton instead of an actual NHL goalie.

Now that is a massive, disgusting failure to accurately gauge your personnel.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 11:59 AM
  #212
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Oh! How could I forget? He also somehow, mysteriously, as a paid professional evaluator of hockey talent, managed to watch Michael ****ing Leighton for several months and come to the conclusion that he should be signed as the starting goalie. The effects of that signing make it probably the strongest contender for the worst signing in the cap era. Possibly even the last couple decades. Others may say the Bryz signing is worse, but the Bryz signing was just one of the results of Homer signing Leighton instead of an actual NHL goalie.

Now that is a massive, disgusting failure to accurately gauge your personnel.
To go into the following year (after cup appearance and debacle) with Leighton "The liar" as your starter and Boosh was the epitome of "overrating" your players and was beyond stupid especially considering the cascading crap storm that followed with Bryz and the handling of Bob...

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:06 PM
  #213
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
I am so sick of the cup reference. Even Holmgren and Snider are on record saying that it was an anomaly of sorts and resulted in them overrating their team. Holmgren kept Stevens way too long and it almost cost them the playoffs that year if you recall. They made it by the skin of their teeth that year and then rode the wave which included a lot of help from Montreal.

I had no problems with him in his first year and then the year he made the Carter and Richards trades. In between those two stints he's been pretty damn bad....

Again are we seeing successful results? If we are I must be missing something. Like Meltzer said..ultimately the results are what matter. If people want to continue to make excuses for a loser who is staring at 2 years of not making the playoffs during his tenure and barely missed a third in 2010..then not sure what else to say.
Look, we both want a successful team. I'm just not willing to define Holmgren as being terrible because of missing the playoffs last year and a bad start this year.

Results are the ultimate deciding factor, but you're are using it as the only factor when it supports your opinion of Holmgren. Example:

You say results are all that matters, than you discredit the results of the Cup run because of lucky match-ups, anomaly season (aren't all Cup appearances really anomalies?), make post season by skin of their teeth, etc...

So, you are only using the results-are-all-that-matters argument when it suits your opinion. All situational factors are considered for Holmgrens success while here, but they are ignored during his perceived failures.... <----- that is my issue with your Holmgren hate, it seems 100% emotional and lacking logic.

People need to accept the fact that sports teams have up and done years, Flyers are transitioning right now.

StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:08 PM
  #214
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 3,354
vCash: 491
So Holmgren is an awful evaluator of talent, yet the team went to the playoffs and the ecf and the scf under his rule.

But he's an awful talent evaluator.

Hiesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:11 PM
  #215
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Oh! How could I forget? He also somehow, mysteriously, as a paid professional evaluator of hockey talent, managed to watch Michael ****ing Leighton for several months and come to the conclusion that he should be signed as the starting goalie. The effects of that signing make it probably the strongest contender for the worst signing in the cap era. Possibly even the last couple decades. Others may say the Bryz signing is worse, but the Bryz signing was just one of the results of Homer signing Leighton instead of an actual NHL goalie.

Now that is a massive, disgusting failure to accurately gauge your personnel.
Honestly, you act like he had his pick of any goalie in the NHL and picked MFL. Maybe you're right, the Flyers never had a goalie issue until Holmgren came along...

All GMs are gonna make mistakes, but you have to factor their successes into the equation to evaluate them. It seems as though you focus on two failures, ignore all successes and form your opinions.

StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:13 PM
  #216
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
 
JDinkalage Morgoone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 308 Negra Arroyo Ln.
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 11,929
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
So Holmgren is an awful evaluator of talent, yet the team went to the playoffs and the ecf and the scf under his rule.

But he's an awful talent evaluator.
I think if anyone says Homer is an awful talent evaluator, they are pretty much wrong. Sure, he's messed up but every GM does. He's made shrewd draft picks in the first round nearly every year and signed some great undrafted players.

JDinkalage Morgoone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:18 PM
  #217
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,839
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
So Holmgren is an awful evaluator of talent, yet the team went to the playoffs and the ecf and the scf under his rule.

But he's an awful talent evaluator.
No, he's awful at evaluating his personnel. There's a difference. He can recognize talent, but he can't recognize shortcomings in his coaches or properly build a team that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Honestly, you act like he had his pick of any goalie in the NHL and picked MFL. Maybe you're right, the Flyers never had a goalie issue until Holmgren came along...
Off the top of my head, Roloson was available, as were Niemi and Halak. Both were instant and very sizable upgrades over Leighton. Homer didn't even attempt to go after any other FA. He DID pick him before the fact. He signed him before open FA even started, for ****s sake! That's just insane! Did he seriously think there was demand for the guy??

Quote:
All GMs are gonna make mistakes, but you have to factor their successes into the equation to evaluate them. It seems as though you focus on two failures, ignore all successes and form your opinions.
Pray tell, how successful has he been? After the team went to the Finals, he immediately took them a sizable step backwards by letting Asham go in favor of a far inferior Shelley, and took the team completely out of contention by signing MFL without even attempting to get anyone better. That was just the first in a long line of backwards steps and errors, bringing the team to where we are today.

Hell, even the Richards and Carter trades, which many praise as a flying rebuild, was a result of Homer backing himself into a corner.

We are at the point where the negative definitively overshadows the positive.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:24 PM
  #218
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 3,354
vCash: 491
Wait...why do you refer to Leighton with MFL...what is the F?

Hiesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:28 PM
  #219
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,839
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Wait...why do you refer to Leighton with MFL...what is the F?
His old nickname here. Michael ****ing Leighton.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:32 PM
  #220
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Look, we both want a successful team. I'm just not willing to define Holmgren as being terrible because of missing the playoffs last year and a bad start this year.

Results are the ultimate deciding factor, but you're are using it as the only factor when it supports your opinion of Holmgren. Example:

You say results are all that matters, than you discredit the results of the Cup run because of lucky match-ups, anomaly season (aren't all Cup appearances really anomalies?), make post season by skin of their teeth, etc...

So, you are only using the results-are-all-that-matters argument when it suits your opinion. All situational factors are considered for Holmgrens success while here, but they are ignored during his perceived failures.... <----- that is my issue with your Holmgren hate, it seems 100% emotional and lacking logic.

People need to accept the fact that sports teams have up and done years, Flyers are transitioning right now.
Question...are you going to continue to endorse Holmgren if his team misses the playoffs two years in a row? Does he not bear any responsibility as GM in assembling a team properly and not just evaluating talent? There is no emotion in this only...there is a litany of grievances I and others have posted particularly since the Carter and Richards trades that has this team underachieving. I mean like I noted Snider and Holmgren themselves said that the cup run gave them a false sense of security and caused them to overrate their players and team. Who's damn fault is that? The players themselves are overrating themselves??? Also, when Lavi was let go 3 games into the season when he should have been canned much earlier as many on here made the point over and over again correctly.... Holmgren was asked by a reporter whether he did enough as a GM to support his coach properly with personnel and HE SAID " That is a fair question..." Why did he say this? Did he say Yes I did and the players have to play etc? A GM's job is to create the conditions along with the coach for the players to succeed. Extending Lavi was a bad decision and didn't help in fostering those conditions. Yeah the players bear responsibility..not denying this but have to look at the whole crooked picture.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:35 PM
  #221
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 3,354
vCash: 491
I'm gonna propose a different question.

If the Penguins get bounced again in the playoffs, when is their coach and GM on the block? I mean you are handed two of the best player in the league (and history of the game) and you keep losing.

Hiesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:38 PM
  #222
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
I'm gonna propose a different question.

If the Penguins get bounced again in the playoffs, when is their coach and GM on the block? I mean you are handed two of the best player in the league (and history of the game) and you keep losing.
This is called a non sequitur..has no relevance to the current argument

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 12:49 PM
  #223
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,839
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
I'm gonna propose a different question.

If the Penguins get bounced again in the playoffs, when is their coach and GM on the block? I mean you are handed two of the best player in the league (and history of the game) and you keep losing.
A lot of Pens fans have been calling for Bylsma's firing for quite some time, actually. Not sure about Shero. I personally don't think he's done that great of a job.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 01:07 PM
  #224
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 3,354
vCash: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
This is called a non sequitur..has no relevance to the current argument
I know, but I didn't want to start another thread about it. This thread is about calling for someones job for not doing well. I used them as an example in another city.

Hiesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-05-2013, 01:19 PM
  #225
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
 
JDinkalage Morgoone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 308 Negra Arroyo Ln.
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 11,929
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
A lot of Pens fans have been calling for Bylsma's firing for quite some time, actually. Not sure about Shero. I personally don't think he's done that great of a job.
I think Shero has handcuffed himself by having the majority of their salary tied up in 5 or 6 players, I forget what the statistic was. It's crazy.

JDinkalage Morgoone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.