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Holmgren Deserves to get Fired

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Old
11-05-2013, 02:21 PM
  #226
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
I'm gonna propose a different question.

If the Penguins get bounced again in the playoffs, when is their coach and GM on the block? I mean you are handed two of the best player in the league (and history of the game) and you keep losing.
Pens fans, at least on here, haven't been fans of Bylsma for a long while now. Shero is a bit of a mixed bag in terms of fan opinion and will probably even be more-so if they bomb in the playoffs again.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
A lot of Pens fans have been calling for Bylsma's firing for quite some time, actually. Not sure about Shero. I personally don't think he's done that great of a job.
There's those that aren't in favor of Shero, but the opinion nor the number of opinions like that aren't nearly as large as those about Bylsma.

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11-05-2013, 02:22 PM
  #227
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I think Shero has handcuffed himself by having the majority of their salary tied up in 5 or 6 players, I forget what the statistic was. It's crazy.
I'm pretty sure it's something like 30% in 3 players and like 40-45% in 6ish. It's been a while since I've done the math.

Losing Staal is a bigger blow than many realize. That really destroyed their depth. As I've been saying for a while, you need a guy like him to be a real contender. Teams will be trying to shut down your top lines and score at the same time, you need at least one center who can do the same.

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11-05-2013, 02:23 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm pretty sure it's something like 30% in 3 players and like 40-45% in 6ish. It's been a while since I've done the math.

Losing Staal is a bigger blow than many realize. That really destroyed their depth. As I've been saying for a while, you need a guy like him to be a real contender. Teams will be trying to shut down your top lines and score at the same time, you need at least one center who can do the same.
Which is why the majority of our fanbase wants to trade Sean Couturier. Let's get rid of him. UGH.

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11-05-2013, 02:25 PM
  #229
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Just responding in peace to the comments above-

We've underachieved but we haven't been healthy in recent years, and last year we were relatively healthy and reached the EC finals. Not terrible (although they put for a pathetic performance vs the B's).

Should they underachieve this year while relatively healthy, expect changes, sure.

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11-05-2013, 04:00 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
The only issue with the D is a lack of a true #1 defender. That's something that timing and luck play into more than talent evaluation at the draft.



Complete exaggeration.
No. A true number 1 defender would greatly improve the defense and hide some of the other problems with the defense. The easiest and best way to get a #1 defenseman is to draft them. However, teams do trade for them (Flyers - Pronger, Toronto - Phaneuf) or sign them in free agency (Boston - Chara, Minnesota - Suter) so don't act as if this is some impossible task. Besides like I said that is a major problem and if we had an elite defenseman it would make up for the over all weakness. But right now none of our defenseman look like a number 2/top pairing defenseman (though maybe one would if they did have that elite defenseman as a partner it's hard to tell). Regardless to have as much money/cap space committed to defeseman and have so little quality is pretty embarrassing. The composition isn't really on par with the way the league is right now the skating on our defense overall isn't good enough nor are the good enough overall on the breakout.

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11-05-2013, 07:26 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by whatthef View Post
No. A true number 1 defender would greatly improve the defense and hide some of the other problems with the defense. The easiest and best way to get a #1 defenseman is to draft them. However, teams do trade for them (Flyers - Pronger, Toronto - Phaneuf) or sign them in free agency (Boston - Chara, Minnesota - Suter) so don't act as if this is some impossible task.
One player is not the same as the others.

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11-05-2013, 07:42 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
One player is not the same as the others.
I realize he's not as good as the others but he is a number 1 defenseman. It was the most recent example I could think of, plus he's actually been pretty good this season

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11-05-2013, 07:57 PM
  #233
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I realize he's not as good as the others but he is a number 1 defenseman. It was the most recent example I could think of, plus he's actually been pretty good this season
I think he is a top pairing d-man at best, not a true no 1.

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11-05-2013, 08:03 PM
  #234
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since he didnt get sacked after friday night, he never will.

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11-05-2013, 08:05 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
I think he is a top pairing d-man at best, not a true no 1.
Maybe I am remembering this wrong, but wasn't Phaneuf a #1 when he was acquired? He was pretty damned good for a while. His first four seasons he didn't score less than 47 points in a season (including one 50+ and one 60+ point season). And that was all under the age of 25. Hard to argue that he wasn't a #1 at the time (or a "lock" to become a #1 in the very near future). You look at a player under 25 putting up those points consistently and I guarantee you people on here would be going gaga over the guy.

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11-05-2013, 08:13 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Maybe I am remembering this wrong, but wasn't Phaneuf a #1 when he was acquired? He was pretty damned good for a while. His first four seasons he didn't score less than 47 points in a season (including one 50+ and one 60+ point season). And that was all under the age of 25. Hard to argue that he wasn't a #1 at the time (or a "lock" to become a #1 in the very near future). You look at a player under 25 putting up those points consistently and I guarantee you people on here would be going gaga over the guy.
He started to slump before getting moved to Toronto. He's a a good defensemen overall & I think pretty underrated now since everybody pretty much dumps on him but he's not a #1 at least not a very good one.

Having a #1 is nice & definitely a help but it's not a drastic need in order for a defense to be successful like some around here think. The Flyers just need a little more balance between offensive & defensive defensemen back there.

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11-05-2013, 09:23 PM
  #237
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If he doesn't make a major forward trade this week including Hartnell and/or Simmonds then i'll pack his office for him.

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11-05-2013, 09:43 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
If he doesn't make a major forward trade this week including Hartnell and/or Simmonds then i'll pack his office for him.
That's a bit unreasonable. He shouldn't make a trade just because. The two trades in the league we've seen this year are relatively uncommon at that.

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11-05-2013, 09:51 PM
  #239
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No. At this point he needs to leave well enough alone so his replacement doesn't have an even worse mess to deal with.

They chose the rebuild, they better stick with it.

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11-05-2013, 10:25 PM
  #240
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I'm on board. Holmgren goes. Everyone but mason goes. A complete house clear. Nobody deserves to stay.

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11-05-2013, 10:34 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No. At this point he needs to leave well enough alone so his replacement doesn't have an even worse mess to deal with.

They chose the rebuild, they better stick with it.
I kinda agree with this sentiment- this goes back to 2011. Firing Holmgren at this point would be like locking the barn door after the horse escaped; what a friggin mess for Holmgren's replacement.

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11-05-2013, 10:36 PM
  #242
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And to boot, everyone talks about trading the whole shebang except for Mason. I think about the only tradable asset the Flyers have is Giroux (and frankly I'm not sure of that). Most teams won't want to take on most of the Flyers' contracts in a trade scenario.

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11-05-2013, 10:51 PM
  #243
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Guys, he is never getting fired, he will get an extension before being fired.

Only hope is he steps down, but looney tunes will never fire this clown.

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11-05-2013, 10:55 PM
  #244
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I'm sitting here dreading some horrible knee-jerk trade. You just never know.

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11-05-2013, 10:56 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
I think he is a top pairing d-man at best, not a true no 1.
Then you haven't watched him play this season or last. Arguably the 11th best D in the NHL. In fact, there is a case to be made in terms of all around abilities, he is around the top of the NHL after Chara, Weber, Suter, OEL and Pietrangelo.

Phaneuf is one of the best shutdown D in the NHL and can contribute 50 points. He plays in all situations and excels 5 v 5, PK, PP, down a goal looking to tie it, protecting a lead, he'll hit, he'll fight, he wears the "C". That is the definition of a #1 guy, what more can you ask?

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Maybe I am remembering this wrong, but wasn't Phaneuf a #1 when he was acquired? He was pretty damned good for a while. His first four seasons he didn't score less than 47 points in a season (including one 50+ and one 60+ point season). And that was all under the age of 25. Hard to argue that he wasn't a #1 at the time (or a "lock" to become a #1 in the very near future). You look at a player under 25 putting up those points consistently and I guarantee you people on here would be going gaga over the guy.
When Phaneuf was acquired he was a guy with all the tools but no tool box. He was enigmatic and a very inconsistent top pairing guy that at times looked like a bottom pairing D. His first two seasons the guy was a lot like what Subban is now (offensive production, plays the flashy game but very unreliable at the same time) but regressed into someone similar to Tyler Myers. He started to slump and allegedly had issues in the dressing room that were vehemently denied by his former teamates however.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Speaking of Tyler Myers, as an outsider, I think he's the type of player you guys should be targeting. The Flyers clearly have a good offensive group that isn't clicking right now but on paper when you look at it with: Giroux, Hartnell, Simmonds, Voracek, Schenn, Couturier, Lecavalier, Downie, Read that's an elite top 9 right there. This is a team that isn't clicking but the players are there up front. Maybe something is needed for chemistry sakes but I wouldn't move Voracek, Giroux or Simmonds if I was the Flyers.

Your D also isn't as much of a train wreck as it's made out to be but you certainly are lacking a #1 guy. I think it's really difficult to win without that type of guy. Why not target a guy like Tyler Myers? He's clearly a major risk and could be a complete bust or could be a great reclamation project and turn out similar to the Phaneuf trade. I think with Ristolainen, Zadarov, Erhoff & Psyk, Myers could be moved. He has a high caphit though.

Something around B. Schenn or Couturier for Myers as the parameters to a deal? I know you guys love Schenn & SC but with Laughton coming up couldn't he replace one of them? This could end up being a colossal failure and utter disaster for the Flyers but could also be the turning point in your franchises contemporary history.

Just an outsiders perspective.

(May be written incoherently, was multi-tasking while I was writing this)


Last edited by Larry Hoover: 11-05-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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Old
11-05-2013, 10:57 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm sitting here dreading some horrible knee-jerk trade. You just never know.
I'm not so sure there is a knee jerk, some have to go. These players don't work together.

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11-05-2013, 11:00 PM
  #247
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I'm not so sure there is a knee jerk, some have to go. These players don't work together.
No, I'm thinking he'll trade the wrong guys.

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11-05-2013, 11:03 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
If he doesn't make a major forward trade this week including Hartnell and/or Simmonds then i'll pack his office for him.
That's going to be pretty hard since Hartnell has a NMC and Simmonds has a modified NTC.

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11-05-2013, 11:05 PM
  #249
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No, I'm thinking he'll trade the wrong guys.
That's why I want him fired so badly. I'm afraid what he'll do to try and save the season/his job. I would find it pretty funny if Lavi and Homer both got fired after losing to the Canes.

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11-06-2013, 01:01 AM
  #250
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Most trades during the season don't happen till in or around the trade deadline. Like GKJ said earlier, it's odd that we've already seen two so far.

I am afraid of what Holmgren will do though just because you never ****ing know with that guy and I'm more confident that he would make a trade in a desperate attempt to turn things around or make a run at it then to rebuild or commit to youth.

That's the thing though, this is a problem of team construction and poor coach handling. Not much to do with the latter, but for the former if you're trading any one or two players you shouldn't expect a big turnaround from this team. Especially if it's Hartnell and Simmonds, considering they probably couldn't net much right now and because when they're doing well and producing offense they're pretty crucial to this team's offensive production.

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