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Old
11-06-2013, 12:19 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Most trades during the season don't happen till in or around the trade deadline. Like GKJ said earlier, it's odd that we've already seen two so far.

I am afraid of what Holmgren will do though just because you never ****ing know with that guy and I'm more confident that he would make a trade in a desperate attempt to turn things around or make a run at it then to rebuild or commit to youth.

That's the thing though, this is a problem of team construction and poor coach handling. Not much to do with the latter, but for the former if you're trading any one or two players you shouldn't expect a big turnaround from this team. Especially if it's Hartnell and Simmonds, considering they probably couldn't net much right now and because when they're doing well and producing offense they're pretty crucial to this team's offensive production.
Well when your owner says...."now we're going to see if we overrated our players" after firing the coach...seems to me he's given Holmgren marching orders to start unloading players if things don't improve. Once again..meddling! More harm than good...

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11-06-2013, 12:30 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No. At this point he needs to leave well enough alone so his replacement doesn't have an even worse mess to deal with.

They chose the rebuild, they better stick with it.

This.

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11-06-2013, 02:21 AM
  #253
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One thing I don't get with Homer is his disregard for the actual position a player plays. He even said after the Downie trade that he could play every forward position including center. Really? Has anyone ever seen Downie play center?

While hoarding centers means you would never end up like the Flames, perpetually searching for a 1c (although Monahan looks like the real deal), this team has shown no chemistry at even strength for two years and every game someone is playing out of position. The coach determines the lines, but Homer forces him to play someone where they would prefer not to.

Last night Voracek was on the left side instead of the right and Vinny was playing RW. B. Schenn was previously forced to wing. Downie on the LW instead of right. Briere was twice the player (offensively) at center when he was at wing here. Laughton will likely be forced to wing next season as well.

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11-06-2013, 02:43 AM
  #254
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my question, did these guys train during the offseason?

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11-06-2013, 06:19 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Larry Hoover View Post
Then you haven't watched him play this season or last. Arguably the 11th best D in the NHL. In fact, there is a case to be made in terms of all around abilities, he is around the top of the NHL after Chara, Weber, Suter, OEL and Pietrangelo.


I have seen him play and it is my opinion that he isn't a TRUE #1. No need to try and convince me. The only true #1s playing in the league are Chara, Weber, and Suter. OEL and Pietrangelo are not there yet in my view.

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11-06-2013, 06:50 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post


I have seen him play and it is my opinion that he isn't a TRUE #1. No need to try and convince me. The only true #1s playing in the league are Chara, Weber, and Suter. OEL and Pietrangelo are not there yet in my view.
Then your definition of a true #1 is kind of a stupid one. There are 30 NHL teams, and all of them have a defenseman who is #1 on their depth chart. There should be about 30 "#1 defensemen" in the NHL. Some teams might have two #1's, and others none, but there are about thirty. If only 3 guys have what it takes to meet your criteria of a #1 defenseman, then your idea of the abilities of the average #1D need updating.

Perhaps you should change your wording to "game breaking defenseman" or "ideal franchise #1 defenseman" or something.

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11-06-2013, 07:02 AM
  #257
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Why is Holmgren still employed?

I've had just about enough of this team. Not just the losses, but the sheer fact that these games are so boring. They are simply un-watchable. That 1-0 win over NJ on Saturday had to be one of the most boring wins I have witnessed in a long time, then last night happened.

In no way would I ever prefer a flashy team that can't win over a boring team that wins multiple championships, but what we are seeing is neither and the guy that put this together needs to step down or be fired.

In no way do I want this man making desperate moves at the trade deadline. Not only will we see the desperate moves fail, but we will also most likely see a draft day in Philly with no 1st round pick.

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11-06-2013, 11:48 AM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Then your definition of a true #1 is kind of a stupid one. There are 30 NHL teams, and all of them have a defenseman who is #1 on their depth chart. There should be about 30 "#1 defensemen" in the NHL. Some teams might have two #1's, and others none, but there are about thirty. If only 3 guys have what it takes to meet your criteria of a #1 defenseman, then your idea of the abilities of the average #1D need updating.

Perhaps you should change your wording to "game breaking defenseman" or "ideal franchise #1 defenseman" or something.

Well, I think there is some disconnect on this. When people around say "We need a #1" I think they mean "game breaking defenseman."

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11-06-2013, 12:25 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, I think there is some disconnect on this. When people around say "We need a #1" I think they mean "game breaking defenseman."
I agree. I always say we need a 1a/b D-man. We have no D that is in the top 30 in the league. Just 2 years ago we had 2. We have a serious lack of skill there. We need to try and go after 1 or 2 tweeners that have upside that we might be able to get a reasonable cost. A Runblad, Beaulieu, Gardiner, Clendenning type. All of our defense except Coburn are slow. Add 1-2 of these young guys AND go after another, more experienced D-man. Pay the price to get set up for next year. If it turns around this year...great. But make sure some of the slower D-men are moved as part of the deal. Keep Schenn....trade Grossmann. Trade Kimmo...keep Streit. Trade Mez for $1, keep Coburn if possible. Keep Gus. Trade Gill for anything.

Also, players often have better years on contract years. Our players never have this because we also re-sign them early. It may save us money, but we also don't get that good year from them too.

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11-06-2013, 01:40 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post


I have seen him play and it is my opinion that he isn't a TRUE #1. No need to try and convince me. The only true #1s playing in the league are Chara, Weber, and Suter. OEL and Pietrangelo are not there yet in my view.
I think your confusing elite/all-star with #1.

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11-06-2013, 02:23 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post


I have seen him play and it is my opinion that he isn't a TRUE #1. No need to try and convince me. The only true #1s playing in the league are Chara, Weber, and Suter. OEL and Pietrangelo are not there yet in my view.
Okay well you clearly have insane criteria. If Pietrangelo isn't a #1 then wow, just wow. In fact, I personally think Pietrangelo is the best D in the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Then your definition of a true #1 is kind of a stupid one. There are 30 NHL teams, and all of them have a defenseman who is #1 on their depth chart. There should be about 30 "#1 defensemen" in the NHL. Some teams might have two #1's, and others none, but there are about thirty. If only 3 guys have what it takes to meet your criteria of a #1 defenseman, then your idea of the abilities of the average #1D need updating.

Perhaps you should change your wording to "game breaking defenseman" or "ideal franchise #1 defenseman" or something.
I disagree with this. By this logic is, you could be the 175th best D in the NHL but still be a #1 because you're the best on your team?

I think most people would agree the definition for a #1 is a guy who on the average team would be the best D and is trusted in all situations (with some exceptions i.e. Karlsson: his offence is so much better than most other D's that it makes up for his poor defensive play). I would say there are probably around 15 #1 guys in the NHL right now along with another around 20 top pairing guys.

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11-06-2013, 03:07 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hoover View Post
Okay well you clearly have insane criteria. If Pietrangelo isn't a #1 then wow, just wow. In fact, I personally think Pietrangelo is the best D in the NHL.



I disagree with this. By this logic is, you could be the 175th best D in the NHL but still be a #1 because you're the best on your team?

I think most people would agree the definition for a #1 is a guy who on the average team would be the best D and is trusted in all situations (with some exceptions i.e. Karlsson: his offence is so much better than most other D's that it makes up for his poor defensive play). I would say there are probably around 15 #1 guys in the NHL right now along with another around 20 top pairing guys.
As he said some teams might have 2 #1s and some might have none. Basically a #1 defenseman are the top 30 defensemen in the league an average of 1 per team. Not the actual best defenseman from each team.

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11-06-2013, 03:11 PM
  #263
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True '1#'s' are pretty hard to come by, or even pick:

Chara: drafted 56th overall (22nd D man taken) (FA contract... $7.5 a year in 06)
Suter: drafted 7th overall (1st D man taken) (FA contract... always going to Minny, $7.5 a year)
Weber: drafted 49th overall (12th D man taken)
Keith: drafted 54th overall (15th D man taken)
Seabrook: drafted 14th overall (4th D man taken)
Doughty: drafted 2nd overall (1st D man taken)
Karlsson: drafted 15th overall (7th D man taken)
Subban: drafted 43rd overall (17th D man taken)
Pietrangelo: drafted 4th overall (3rd D man taken)
Ekman-Larsson: drafted 6th overall (2nd D man taken)

You probably then have another 15-20 guys who are kind of 1b's, (tbf even though I don't think there are 'exactly 30' #1's in the NHL I imagine there are 25-30 who can be considered 1a or 1b.) Kimmo has been one for a long time, but not any-more seemingly.

(Guys like Phaneuf, Letang, Kronvall, Yandle, Byfuglien, Edler, Shattenkirk, Johnson, Giradi, Boyle, Carlson, Hedman, Voynov, Enstrom and McDonagh.) There are a few guys I have left off as I cba spending any time properly thinking!

After those guys (and the 5-10 I inevitably forgot) I think there is really just a collection of guys who with the right partner can be a 2, a decent partner a 3, but some years could look like a 4! (the guys most fans refer to as 3-4 D men.)

And even that list of guys who are '1b', they all would cost to get, the only time they can be had without losing an arm is early on in their career (down years, not developed yet) or when they are ageing.

That is one reason I would not mind going after Del Zotto now... hey, maybe he is just a 3-4 in disguise... but if he could be had on the cheap and round into a 1b, that kid is always going to put up points, so if his defence can improve 1b is not unrealistic. Ofc getting him (from the Rags at that) is a different matter.

Note: some of the individual players in the brackets people may judge differently... but my point is not about who is a 1a, 1b or anything else, but how these guys are hard to come across. I am not even in the Homer camp though, I think the ship has sailed, just trying to say that even guys who are not universally considered as 1's are hell hard/lucky to come by reasonably.


Last edited by Appleyard: 11-06-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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11-06-2013, 03:17 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
True '1#'s' are pretty hard to come by, or even pick:

Chara: drafted 56th overall (22nd D man taken) (FA contract... $7.5 a year in 06)
Suter: drafted 7th overall (1st D man taken) (FA contract... always going to Minny, $7.5 a year)
Weber: drafted 49th overall (12th D man taken)
Keith: drafted 54th overall (15th D man taken)
Seabrook: drafted 14th overall (4th D man taken)
Doughty: drafted 2nd overall (1st D man taken)
Karlsson: drafted 15th overall (7th D man taken)
Subban: drafted 43rd overall (17th D man taken)
Pietrangelo: drafted 4th overall (3rd D man taken)
Ekman-Larsson: drafted 6th overall (2nd D man taken)

You probably then have another 15-20 guys who are kind of 1b's, Kimmo has been one for a long time, but not any-more seemingly.

(Guys like Phaneuf, Letang, Kronvall, Yandle, Byfuglien, Edler, Shattenkirk, Johnson, Giradi, Boyle, Carlson, Hedman, Voynov, Enstrom and McDonagh.) There are a few guys I have left off as I cba spending any time properly thinking!

After those guys (and the 5-10 I inevitably forgot) I think there is really just a collection of guys who with the right partner can be a 2, a decent partner a 3, but some years could look like a 4! (the guys most fans refer to as 3-4 D men.)

And even that list of guys who are '1b', they all would cost to get, the only time they can be had without losing an arm is early on in their career (down years, not developed yet) or when they are ageing.

That is one reason I would not mind going after Del Zotto now... hey, maybe he is just a 3-4 in disguise... but if he could be had on the cheap and round into a 1b, that kid is always going to put up points, so if his defence can improve 1b is not unrealistic. Ofc getting him (from the Rags at that) is a different matter.

Note: some of the individual players in the brackets people may judge differently... but my point is not about who is a 1a, 1b or anything else, but how these guys are hard to come across. I am not even in the Homer camp though, I think the ship has sailed, just trying to say that even guys who are not universally considered as 1's are hell hard/lucky to come by reasonably.
I don't think that any disputes the fact they're hard to get. The problem is the we're now in our second season where we don't have anyone even resembling a 1z defenseman let alone a 1a. In fact most of our defesman look like they are 3/4s at this point in their a careers.

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11-06-2013, 03:22 PM
  #265
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is this what happen when we reward players for 1 good season?

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11-06-2013, 04:25 PM
  #266
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So, I use true instead of franchise and some people call me insane?

#1 dman != franchise/true #1 d-man.
TLDR: A #1 d-man to me isn't the same as a true/franchise #1 d-man.

#1 d-men
Edler
Phaneuf
Keith

true/franchise #1 d-men
Chara
Suter
Weber

Obviously not comprehensive lists by any means.

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11-06-2013, 04:40 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
So, I use true instead of franchise and some people call me insane?

#1 dman != franchise/true #1 d-man.
TLDR: A #1 d-man to me isn't the same as a true/franchise #1 d-man.

#1 d-men
Edler
Phaneuf
Keith

true/franchise #1 d-men
Chara
Suter
Weber

Obviously not comprehensive lists by any means.
No one called you insane, but by any definition we don't have one.

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11-06-2013, 06:07 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by whatthef View Post
I don't think that any disputes the fact they're hard to get. The problem is the we're now in our second season where we don't have anyone even resembling a 1z defenseman let alone a 1a. In fact most of our defesman look like they are 3/4s at this point in their a careers.
I think they deluded themselves into thinking Kimmo was still going one tbh. (a 1b) Last year he played damn well for a good 80% of the year, put up points and played great D, he even got in or the Norris voting. (top 20) (though there were some signs that he was regressing, especially early before he turned it round.) So you could say that there was some legitimate process in that belief, but it was not to proactive a move, and they must have known that if they just kept resigning him he was going to have father time catch up at some point.

I also think they thought Streit could help him continue to play to the standard he has for so long by taking some of his minutes and responsibilities.

I do think Kimmo has been slightly overly maligned this year simply due to not putting up points... (though the same can be said for most) if he had 6 or 7 so far people would not be on him, as his D has been pretty good on the whole, although there have been some glaring plays and noticeable loss of footspeed that was not really there last year.

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11-06-2013, 07:11 PM
  #269
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No one called you insane, but by any definition we don't have one.
Well, not directly, but it was implied.

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11-06-2013, 11:37 PM
  #270
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IMHO this team has started to decay since 2010 when we reached the Finals.
Holmgren as a GM is terrible.
Holmgren traded both Carter and Richards and replaced them with Bryz.
With Pronger out he was unable or unwilling to acquire a 1 or 1A defenseman to solidify the defense.
He traded for Schenn who is a defensive defenseman, instead of acquiring an young offensive defenseman.
He let Carle go to keep Coburn, wrong move.
Every move he has made since acquiring Pronger has backfired.
The team is slow and lacks skill but, he keeps signing washed up veterans for high cap hits.
Time for him to pay the piper.

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11-07-2013, 12:09 AM
  #271
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I dont like Holmgren but you really cant fault him for not being able to get a #1 defenseman. 99 times out of 100 they are not on the market.
You have to do what the Flyers are finally trying to do. draft a guy and hope he turns out to be the guy.

EDIT: Yes he traded for Timonen but that was simply a case of Nashville being unable to bring him back and the he was able to acquire their rights. had Nashville been in a better place financially then I dont think it happens.

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11-07-2013, 12:13 AM
  #272
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I dont like Holmgren but you really cant fault him for not being able to get a #1 defenseman. 99 times out of 100 they are not on the market.
You have to do what the Flyers are finally trying to do. draft a guy and hope he turns out to be the guy.
You can fault him for not even getting a number 2 defenseman to try and fill in/'pretend' to be a number 1.

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11-07-2013, 09:39 PM
  #273
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How does he still have a job at this point?

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11-07-2013, 09:41 PM
  #274
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How does he still have a job at this point?
Magic I think... only reasonable explanation I can come up with.

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11-07-2013, 09:43 PM
  #275
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Yea I guess. I honestly think this is the worst Flyers team in History. Does anyone have that stat? Record or whatever. I'd like to compare.

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