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Rinne Out (Hip Infection), Hellberg called up - MOD warning post #195

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Old
11-06-2013, 12:31 PM
  #176
Joe T Choker
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Originally Posted by braindead View Post
In some Scandinavian countries it is still somewhat common to pack a wound or surgical opening with raw ground beef (or, less common, ground horse meat) as there is some evidence- mostly anecdotal- that the process speeds healing and lessens scar tissue. I STRONGLY suspect this process was used in this case given E. coli is a known risk factor in OWRMP (open wound raw meat packing) protocols.
I just had a flashback to the rabies Radiolab podcast ... *shudders*

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11-06-2013, 12:55 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by braindead View Post
In some Scandinavian countries it is still somewhat common to pack a wound or surgical opening with raw ground beef (or, less common, ground horse meat) as there is some evidence- mostly anecdotal- that the process speeds healing and lessens scar tissue. I STRONGLY suspect this process was used in this case given E. coli is a known risk factor in OWRMP (open wound raw meat packing) protocols.
Are you kidding me?

I'm fairly sure he had his surgery in the usa and even if he had it in finland there is no way a surgeon in the 21st century does that on an orthopedic case.

If the organism in Pekkas hip really is e coli it is because the hip is right by the anus. E coli is a bacterium found in the gut.

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11-06-2013, 01:25 PM
  #178
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Is it possible with the range of motion in the hip that a bone spur or a spot where a pin was placed nicked the intestine? That was my first thought when I heard...
Quite possible.

You'd think an antibiotic IV would have kept the infection from ever happening, but guess not!

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11-06-2013, 01:48 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Adz View Post
Quite possible.

You'd think an antibiotic IV would have kept the infection from ever happening, but guess not!
Not if it was perforated during surgery and weakened. Assuming it was range of motion tear that caused the new infection, his own e Coli from large intestine would've been the source. Makes you wonder if/when a lawsuit would be in the works against Vandy Sports Med if that's the case and it takes him out for the year... not like Vandy needs any more financial issues to deal with...

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11-06-2013, 02:15 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by SavageSteve View Post
Is it possible with the range of motion in the hip that a bone spur or a spot where a pin was placed nicked the intestine? That was my first thought when I heard...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adz View Post
Quite possible.

You'd think an antibiotic IV would have kept the infection from ever happening, but guess not!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SavageSteve View Post
Not if it was perforated during surgery and weakened. Assuming it was range of motion tear that caused the new infection, his own e Coli from large intestine would've been the source. Makes you wonder if/when a lawsuit would be in the works against Vandy Sports Med if that's the case and it takes him out for the year... not like Vandy needs any more financial issues to deal with...
no. you are not correct, not at all. the hip joint is not anywhere near the intestinal cavity. if it had nicked his intestines he would have developed perotinitis and been very, very sick right after surgery.

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11-06-2013, 02:25 PM
  #181
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This is way above my pay grade.

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11-06-2013, 03:01 PM
  #182
PredsV82
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This is way above my pay grade.
its actually above mine too trigg, but since handtrick has gone missing I will do the best I can

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11-06-2013, 03:09 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
no. you are not correct, not at all. the hip joint is not anywhere near the intestinal cavity. if it had nicked his intestines he would have developed perotinitis and been very, very sick right after surgery.
The folks Mr. Adz dealt with didn't have to worry about sickness.

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11-06-2013, 03:54 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
no. you are not correct, not at all. the hip joint is not anywhere near the intestinal cavity. if it had nicked his intestines he would have developed perotinitis and been very, very sick right after surgery.
Anatomy was never my strong-suit... chemistry on the other hand...
Was just wondering if there was a chance of a nick in the incisions that initially healed and was reopened during the range of motion required to be an NHL goalie.

From doing a little more research, literature/abstracts from NIH journals about microbial infections in hip joints suggest it could have been a biofilm that was undetected in lab analysis became motile from movement (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2863887/):
Quote:
microbiologic diagnosis of prosthetic joint-associated infections (PJIs) is often based on cultures of periprosthetic tissue. However, this method is insufficient since microorganisms are attached as a biofilm on the prosthesis (5). Under this condition, bacteria change their phenotype to a sessile form and adhere strongly to the device.
Reading along also leads to this:
Quote:
Species identification of the Gram-negative rods proved to be difficult in this case. Sessile growth, encasement in a hydrated extracellular matrix, altered phenotype, and resistance to certain antibiotics are typical microbiologic characteristics of bacteria adhering to artificial surfaces (3). The extent to which these sessile bacteria regain their normal phenotype and biochemical properties when being liberated by sonication is unknown...
So basically, it has to be assumed that whatever it was contaminating the prosthesis was dormant and undetectable as gram-negative rods. Basically sounds like Pekka's hip was a biological ticking time bomb of sorts if this is the case... Hopefully the infection is cured.

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11-06-2013, 04:55 PM
  #185
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Read that article but from the just it sounded like it was more a problem for people with prosthetics

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11-06-2013, 05:37 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by SavageSteve View Post
Anatomy was never my strong-suit... chemistry on the other hand...
Was just wondering if there was a chance of a nick in the incisions that initially healed and was reopened during the range of motion required to be an NHL goalie.

From doing a little more research, literature/abstracts from NIH journals about microbial infections in hip joints suggest it could have been a biofilm that was undetected in lab analysis became motile from movement (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2863887/):


Reading along also leads to this:


So basically, it has to be assumed that whatever it was contaminating the prosthesis was dormant and undetectable as gram-negative rods. Basically sounds like Pekka's hip was a biological ticking time bomb of sorts if this is the case... Hopefully the infection is cured.

except Pekka didnt have a prosthesis. remember this happend about 6 months after his surgery.. I find it unlikely that he has had the infection all this time.

most likely what happened was he had a skin breakdown near the incision(ie rubbed a raw place from all the movement he does), then E Coli from his bowels got onto the skin and entered the skin break. Once in the skin the e coli traveled through the tissues to the joint, which is a more favorable location for germs because it doesnt have the blood flow that skin and other tissues have.

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11-06-2013, 06:59 PM
  #187
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its actually above mine too trigg, but since handtrick has gone missing I will do the best I can
Funny you should mention handtrick - he responded to a tweet from Jim Diamond this morning and gave an explanation of how the infection possibly happened. I don't know how to imbed the tweet, so I'll post the text.

HT :"As an ortho surgeon, this is consistent w/the "spontaneous infxn" initially reported arising from bacteremia from GI tract"

HT: "This doesn't have any of the red flags of an infection ongoing from the initial surgery many months prior."

JD: "But this long after the original procedure?"

JD: "It all just seems really odd, but then again, I am not all that smart."

HT: "Again, more consistent w/ a spontaneous bacteremia from GI tract that doesn't have anything to do w/ the prior surgery at all"

JD: "So just a really odd set of circumstances that triggered an infection in the same hip he had surgery on months ago then?"

HT: "Yes. A staph infxn would have been much more likely to be related to intial procedure. A colitis releases E.coli into blood"

HT: "continued.... Which travels and seeds in hip joint is likely route. Very rare, but not unheard of."

JD: "Wow. Thanks for the help. That is amazing."

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11-06-2013, 07:22 PM
  #188
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we need ht back on here... I'm going to email him....

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11-06-2013, 09:24 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by PhoneGuy View Post
Funny you should mention handtrick - he responded to a tweet from Jim Diamond this morning and gave an explanation of how the infection possibly happened. I don't know how to imbed the tweet, so I'll post the text.

HT :"As an ortho surgeon, this is consistent w/the "spontaneous infxn" initially reported arising from bacteremia from GI tract"

HT: "This doesn't have any of the red flags of an infection ongoing from the initial surgery many months prior."

JD: "But this long after the original procedure?"

JD: "It all just seems really odd, but then again, I am not all that smart."

HT: "Again, more consistent w/ a spontaneous bacteremia from GI tract that doesn't have anything to do w/ the prior surgery at all"

JD: "So just a really odd set of circumstances that triggered an infection in the same hip he had surgery on months ago then?"

HT: "Yes. A staph infxn would have been much more likely to be related to intial procedure. A colitis releases E.coli into blood"

HT: "continued.... Which travels and seeds in hip joint is likely route. Very rare, but not unheard of."

JD: "Wow. Thanks for the help. That is amazing."
that is similiar to what I was describing earlier, I just didnt know it could come straight from the gut to the joint(via the bloodstream).. but as noted, this is not from the original surgery.

The Preds have to lead the league in all-time weird **** happening to franchise goalies... I pity whoever eventually succeeds Pekka as our starter... they will probably just spontaneously explode on the ice

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11-06-2013, 09:25 PM
  #190
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How the hell did he get an EColi infection???

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11-06-2013, 09:34 PM
  #191
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How the hell did he get an EColi infection???
E coli in the gut got into the bloodstream, probably from an irritation of the bowel, and was carried to the joint, which is a place germs can survive and evade the bodies defenses.

Imagine a prisoner sneaking out of prison on the garbage truck.. he cant stay on the garbage truck(bloodstream) forever because eventually the guards(immune system) will find him... so he rides along until he sees an abandoned house(hip joint), jumps off and hides in the abandoned house because the guards dont come there

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11-06-2013, 10:45 PM
  #192
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Are you kidding me?
Yes. A bit of satire inspired by the many expert opinions here.

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11-06-2013, 11:31 PM
  #193
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Yes. A bit of satire inspired by the many expert opinions here.
thats awesome. Just like the Onion articles that end up on Fox News as if they were real...

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11-06-2013, 11:40 PM
  #194
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thats awesome. Just like the Onion articles that end up on Fox News as if they were real...
Exactly!!!! Perhaps doctor oz will someday recommend Scandinavian meat packing for wound therapy.

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11-07-2013, 12:33 PM
  #195
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MOD

After shutting down the thread and cleaning up the last few pages, we decided to open it back up. Let's keep this on topic please. This is about Rinne's injury and the goalie situation. Let's not debate hospitals or medical procedures.

Also, stop with the personal attacks. Please report posts instead of joining in.

Thank you.

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11-10-2013, 06:45 PM
  #196
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Preds just issued a statement about Rinne
http://section303.com/predators-issu...ka-rinne-51695


Pekka Rinne underwent a MRI earlier this week and he continues to progress in his recovery from a bacterial infection in his hip which was initially identified and addressed with arthroscopic hip surgery on October 24. There have been no setbacks – and we and the doctors are thankful they have identified the infection – so now it is simply a matter of time for recovery and allowing treatment to take its course. Pekka will remain on crutches and antibiotics for at least the next couple weeks before a follow-up MRI in late November. We expect a full and complete recovery and will provide additional updates when appropriate.

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11-10-2013, 07:08 PM
  #197
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Not gonna breathe easy until he's on the ice and stopping pucks.

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11-11-2013, 12:45 AM
  #198
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Man I'm sad I missed out on whatever shenanigans were going on in here over the past week.

This E. coli business is crazy. I mean, it has to find its way out of his (or someone else's) intestines and somehow end up in his operative hip, either directly or via seeding through his bloodstream. What are the odds?!?!

However it got there, at this point I just hope that first and foremost Pekka will be okay in general, and secondly that he will ever play NHL hockey again, let alone in 6-8 weeks.

We have now had one goalie go down with a rare blood clotting problem, and another with an exceedingly rare bacterial infection.

Oh and there was that one time we had a guy forced into retirement by A RASH. And let's not forget Rem Murray and his dystonia. What the heck?!

The Preds have the worst luck ever!

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11-11-2013, 12:50 AM
  #199
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Strange things happen to this team. Period.

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11-11-2013, 08:53 AM
  #200
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I'm assuming they're not going stick with Hutton for another game, but see what this kid Mazanec can do? Or bring back Hellberg? something? lol.

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