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How Many Players Now Regret the Tortorella Firing?

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11-08-2013, 08:41 AM
  #126
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People wanting a coach fired not even 15 games into an 82-game season is the sole definition of turning your back on the team. (Not saying specific names nor do I have to.)

You can criticize a team. That's not a problem. But when certain individuals (and I need to emphasize this point, because it really is utterly ridiculous) want a coach fired and half the players bought out not even 15 games into a season of 82, one cannot possibly argue that they're "loyal" to their team.
I would love to see the people who were openly and actively calling for AV's head? There were definite and fair concerns about the way this team was playing. And lop-sided scores aside, the team wasn't play hard. And that was not excusable for a time who's bread and butter for the past 3+ seasons has been working hard.

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11-08-2013, 08:46 AM
  #127
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I don't think any of the players regret it, now or when we looked awful a couple weeks ago. From everything that's been reported, it sounded like many (most?) of the players had strained relationships with Torts. If that's truly the case, then it's entirely likely that the team would have tuned him out completely and struggled just as much as they did at the beginning of this year.

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11-08-2013, 08:47 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
And with the way the team started out, why should they have gotten the benefit of the doubt? It's taken a lot to get the team to where it is now. And even now, they've really only had two good wins against quality teams (LA and PIT).
Because it's a new coach with a brand new system who had to undo a ton of damage under Tortorella who almost destroyed the career of Krieder, smothered the offensive talents of almost everyone on the team, and worked them into the ground

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Why should we have faith? What has this organization done over the past 13 years to earn the benefit of the doubt? The team went through its usual offseason overhaul and they brought in players with question marks — Pouliot and D Moore most notably.
Because that's what fans do. Criticism is expected but what we saw around here for the first month was totally uncalled for. And what the org has done - how about throw as much money as possible towards free agents and not penny pinch. That was definitely misguided but in the past 3 years or so Slats has worked his ass off to get smart trades done to make this team better. Guy gets no credit and no respect for the moves he's made. All you heard around here was the team has no talent and no identity. The talent thing is a ridiculous comment, and the identity thing - well that comes with the coach and we're well on our way.

But above all, I don't see how you can excuse anyone who doubted Lunqvist the way they did, they should not be calling themselves Ranger fans

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11-08-2013, 08:48 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I don't think any of the players regret it, now or when we looked awful a couple weeks ago. From everything that's been reported, it sounded like many (most?) of the players had strained relationships with Torts. If that's truly the case, then it's entirely likely that the team would have tuned him out completely and struggled just as much as they did at the beginning of this year.
I think a coach like Torts inherently has a short shelf life. It's the law of diminishing returns with him. I didn't necessarily agree with firing him, but I certainly understood it.

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11-08-2013, 08:50 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Why should we have faith? What has this organization done over the past 13 years to earn the benefit of the doubt? The team went through its usual offseason overhaul and they brought in players with question marks Pouliot and D Moore most notably.

And with the way the team started out, why should they have gotten the benefit of the doubt? It's taken a lot to get the team to where it is now. And even now, they've really only had two good wins against quality teams (LA and PIT).
Don't waste your precious time. Its nearly impossible to argue with those that look at each season - and sometimes each game - in a vacuum.

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11-08-2013, 08:50 AM
  #131
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Dubinsky talked about how his relationship wasn't good in 11-12. Gaborik didn't want to comment on his relationship with Tortorella. John will plead ignorance. He even had issues with Richards.

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11-08-2013, 08:53 AM
  #132
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Tortorella did interviews with Mike Francesa. Whenever asked about the PP, he would simply chalk it up to not having the personnel. No "shot from the point".
It was all BS. I said at the time, you do not need great personnel to have a decent PP. Instead their PP under Tortorella was abysmal. These are the same players that Tortorella coached, yet the PP looks MUCH better this year. It was a coaching issue.

With the amount of PP opportunities they had vs the Bruins, had they had this year's PP, they likely would have beaten them.

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11-08-2013, 08:53 AM
  #133
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Because it's a new coach with a brand new system who had to undo a ton of damage under Tortorella who almost destroyed the career of Krieder, smothered the offensive talents of almost everyone on the team, and worked them into the ground
Assuming all that's true (and I'll accept the new system argument) it doesn't explain the complete lack of energy, compete level and hear they showed throughout the preseason and on the western swing (save the LA game).


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Because that's what fans do. Criticism is expected but what we saw around here for the first month was totally uncalled for. And what the org has done - how about throw as much money as possible towards free agents and not penny pinch. That was definitely misguided but in the past 3 years or so Slats has worked his ass off to get smart trades done to make this team better. Guy gets no credit and no respect for the moves he's made
What moves? Every move seems to be done in a vacuum. The Nash trade? It made the Gaborik trade necessary.

The McDonagh trade was brilliant. A complete fluke and a total bamboozling of a moron but it was brilliant.

The Prust trade was good.

Outside of that, I see trades that made to fix bad UFA signings and a revolving door of mediocrity.

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11-08-2013, 08:54 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
Because it's a new coach with a brand new system who had to undo a ton of damage under Tortorella who almost destroyed the career of Krieder, smothered the offensive talents of almost everyone on the team, and worked them into the ground


Because that's what fans do. Criticism is expected but what we saw around here for the first month was totally uncalled for. And what the org has done - how about throw as much money as possible towards free agents and not penny pinch. That was definitely misguided but in the past 3 years or so Slats has worked his ass off to get smart trades done to make this team better. Guy gets no credit and no respect for the moves he's made. All you heard around here was the team has no talent and no identity. The talent thing is a ridiculous comment, and the identity thing - well that comes with the coach and we're well on our way.

But above all, I don't see how you can excuse anyone who doubted Lunqvist the way they did, they should not be calling themselves Ranger fans
I think the fundamental difference is that some people have legitimate expectations for success from this franchise. We want another cup.

Step outside of your little bubble and take a look at the rest of the league, then tell me if this Ranger team stacks up.

Right now, they are earmarked for battling for the 5-8th seed, and maybe winning a round in the playoffs. A typical Ranger season -- you seem to be happy with that. Im not.

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11-08-2013, 08:56 AM
  #135
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The talent thing is a ridiculous comment, and the identity thing - well that comes with the coach and we're well on our way.
If indeed Kreider has turned the corner, than AV gets credit. But then he still has to answer for Miller.

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But above all, I don't see how you can excuse anyone who doubted Lunqvist the way they did
I agree.

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11-08-2013, 08:58 AM
  #136
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But above all, I don't see how you can excuse anyone who doubted Lunqvist the way they did, they should not be calling themselves Ranger fans
I never doubted Lundqvist, nor did I call for AV's head. Im not going to be singled out for your strawman argument. You seem confused.

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11-08-2013, 09:02 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I never doubted Lundqvist, nor did I call for AV's head. Im not going to be singled out for your strawman argument. You seem confused.
You seem to think the world revolves around you, you're like a page ago - keep up

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11-08-2013, 09:06 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think the fundamental difference is that some people have legitimate expectations for success from this franchise. We want another cup.

Step outside of your little bubble and take a look at the rest of the league, then tell me if this Ranger team stacks up.

Right now, they are earmarked for battling for the 5-8th seed, and maybe winning a round in the playoffs. A typical Ranger season -- you seem to be happy with that. Im not.
And it's especially disappointing because the Rangers have taken a step backwards instead of a step forwards after finishing first place in the Eastern Conference and ECF appearance in 2012.

The typical 5-8th seed finish and maybe winning a round was an achievement the first few seasons after the Dark Ages. It's not enough anymore.

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11-08-2013, 09:06 AM
  #139
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You seem to think the world revolves around you, you're like a page ago - keep up
Im trying, but I think you need to sort out who you are mad at. The idiots that wanted to tear the team completely down after 5 games, or the longtime fans that aren't fooled by a few wins and demand more of this franchise?

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11-08-2013, 09:08 AM
  #140
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And it's especially disappointing because the Rangers have taken a step backwards instead of a step forwards after finishing first place in the Eastern Conference and ECF appearance in 2012.

The typical 5-8th seed finish and winning a round or two was an achievement the first few seasons after the Dark Ages. It's not enough anymore.
Typical Sather meddling. He did the same thing in 2007 with the Gomez and Drury signings.

You'd think he'd have learned a major lesson there. That when you have a team trending upward, you need to add to that core, not dismantle it and start interchanging parts.

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11-08-2013, 09:13 AM
  #141
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Pessimism under the guise of realism is not something that is new here, it's been a pretty popular mentality since the founding of the board.

Honestly with how bad the Rangers have been over their long history I don't much blame people for that mindset. It's only when people start getting nasty to those with different viewpoints that it really irks me.

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11-08-2013, 09:53 AM
  #142
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I always thought Torts would be suited for the West and AV in the east.

torts shot blocking theory and aggressive forecheck has worked wonderful here, AV's quick transition game will surely work for you guys. I'm not sure if he has changed his passive 1-2-2 for you guys but when it works and creates turnovers its fun to watch.

Glad to see AV somewhat turn it around for you guys. Couldn't be happier with Torts. He seems to have really have a different persona this year compared to years before. Of course I wouldn't know when it comes to inside the locker room, but he'll wouldn't a Rangers vs Canucks Final be something to talk about eh?

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11-08-2013, 09:58 AM
  #143
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Glad to see AV somewhat turn it around for you guys. Couldn't be happier with Torts. He seems to have really have a different persona this year compared to years before. Of course I wouldn't know when it comes to inside the locker room, but he'll wouldn't a Rangers vs Canucks Final be something to talk about eh?
Yeah that would be a great series. Just the regular season game at MSG this year is in crazy demand. Tortorella is great to start, what you have to keep your eye on is how the team responds long term. He usually eventually wears out his welcome - media, players, & fans included

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11-08-2013, 10:04 AM
  #144
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Interesting how the relationship with Torts "fell apart" at the same time he was playing awful.
I don't want to derail the thread too much - and not responding to you in particular SBoB - but I wanted to make a point with regards to Dubinsky's comments...

This is coming from a staunch Torts supporter. I usually hate the Canucks, but I am now rooting for them to do well in the west just because of Torts. That being said, there's a lot to what Dubinsky was saying about the "shiny new toy" syndrome of NY - the lack of patience of the fans (which we see on these boards painfully often) - and the subsequent lack of patience from the organization. And Torts' personality played into that - constantly benching players and changing lines - and he was guilty of not being patient with Dubinksy in 11-12, for sure.

Was Dubi playing awful? Offensively, absolutely. Away from the puck, he was doing fine...but he was being paid to score points, and he wasn't doing it. And I know we're in the cap-era, so there's less room to be patient with a player who isn't playing up to their salary...but this was LITERALLY Dubinsky's only off-year. Every other year of his career, he showed progress from the previous season and played extremely well. He had one off-season and the whole fanbase and organization turned on him and deemed him expendable, instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt to rebound the following season (and it certainly looks like he has done that in Columbus...would he have done that in NY under Torts? Who knows, but I would have liked to give him that chance). And I don't want to get into whether the Nash trade was worth it or not - all things considered, I'm happy the trade was made - but I just don't like how the fanbase turned on Dubinsky that season.

Take a look at this stat line:
24 New York Rangers NHL 54 14 21 35 14
25 New York Rangers NHL 67 21 30 51 10
26 New York Rangers NHL 41 6 5 11 4

Here was a young center iceman that was showing progress, and all of a sudden had an off year at the age of 26. In this day and age, I would expect Ranger fans to go beserk, call this player a bust who was declining, and demand that he get traded while he still had value. But the organization was patient, and here is how that player did in subsequent seasons:

27 New York Rangers NHL 74 32 46 78 18
28 New York Rangers NHL 75 32 46 78 26
29 New York Rangers NHL 75 32 42 74 28
30 New York Rangers NHL 78 26 46 72 14
31 New York Rangers NHL 63 46 63 109 4
32 New York Rangers NHL 78 41 53 94
etc.

That player's name was Jean Ratelle.

Yes, that was a different era. No, Brandon Dubinsky is not, and will never be Jean Ratelle. My point is simply this - with the "shiny new toy" syndrome, the lack of patience, and the absurd compulsion to label our players as "busts" and "declining" that we have as fans on this team, we would have been calling for Jean Ratelle to be traded when he was 26.


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11-08-2013, 10:09 AM
  #145
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And it's especially disappointing because the Rangers have taken a step backwards instead of a step forwards after finishing first place in the Eastern Conference and ECF appearance in 2012.

The typical 5-8th seed finish and maybe winning a round was an achievement the first few seasons after the Dark Ages. It's not enough anymore.
There is no such thing as a 5th-8th finish anymore. The playoffs are set up within the division until the conference final against the Atlantic. If we land in the second spot in the Metro our path to the conference final is likely Capitals/Islanders and then Pittsburgh. There is nothing but injuries keeping this team from another shot at the ECF.

People seem to have rosier memories of the '12 playoffs than I do. We had to play elimination games against the 8th and 7th seeds. Actually we had to play 2 against the 8th seed. Getting to play the 8th, 7th and 6th seeds, none of them particularly good teams, the Rangers should have gotten to the cup finals well rested.

But the team looked beat up and exhausted. Opposing coaches were able to exploit our game plan with relative ease. Same story in pretty much every playoff series in recent memory.

The sad reality is that the Rangers have not "controlled" a playoff series since they beat the Devils in '08.

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11-08-2013, 10:13 AM
  #146
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I would love to see the people who were openly and actively calling for AV's head? There were definite and fair concerns about the way this team was playing. And lop-sided scores aside, the team wasn't play hard. And that was not excusable for a time who's bread and butter for the past 3+ seasons has been working hard.
Yup. Hey I'll admit I was one of the people that wanted him gone if things didn't change, and change quick. We all know the issues that run deeper than the coach, but.. it looks like things have changed, so for now, I'm a happy Ranger fan.

As long as we're winning, I'm not going to look the proverbial gift-horse in the mouth.

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11-08-2013, 10:21 AM
  #147
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I don't want to derail the thread too much - and not responding to you in particular SBoB - but I wanted to make a point with regards to Dubinsky's comments...

This is coming from a staunch Torts supporter. I usually hate the Canucks, but I am now rooting for them to do well in the west just because of Torts. That being said, there's a lot to what Dubinsky was saying about the "shiny new toy" syndrome of NY - the lack of patience of the fans (which we see on these boards painfully often) - and the subsequent lack of patience from the organization. And Torts' personality played into that - constantly benching players and changing lines - and he was guilty of not being patient with Dubinksy in 11-12, for sure.

Was Dubi playing awful? Offensively, absolutely. Away from the puck, he was doing fine...but he was being paid to score points, and he wasn't doing it. And I know we're in the cap-era, so there's less room to be patient with a player who isn't playing up to their salary...but this was LITERALLY Dubinsky's only off-year. Every other year of his career, he showed progress from the previous season and played extremely well. He had one off-season and the whole fanbase and organization turned on him and deemed him expendable, instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt to rebound the following season (and it certainly looks like he has done that in Columbus...would he have done that in NY under Torts? Who knows, but I would have liked to give him that chance). And I don't want to get into whether the Nash trade was worth it or not - all things considered, I'm happy the trade was made - but I just don't like how the fanbase turned on Dubinsky that season.

Take a look at this stat line:
24 New York Rangers NHL 54 14 21 35 14
25 New York Rangers NHL 67 21 30 51 10
26 New York Rangers NHL 41 6 5 11 4

Here was a young center iceman that was showing progress, and all of a sudden had an off year at the age of 26. In this day and age, I would expect Ranger fans to go beserk, call this player a bust who was declining, and demand that he get traded while he still had value. But the organization was patient, and here is how that player did in subsequent seasons:

27 New York Rangers NHL 74 32 46 78 18
28 New York Rangers NHL 75 32 46 78 26
29 New York Rangers NHL 75 32 42 74 28
30 New York Rangers NHL 78 26 46 72 14
31 New York Rangers NHL 63 46 63 109 4
32 New York Rangers NHL 78 41 53 94
etc.

That player's name was Jean Ratelle.

Yes, that was a different era. No, Brandon Dubinsky is not, and will never be Jean Ratelle. My point is simply this - with the "shiny new toy" syndrome, the lack of patience, and the absurd compulsion to label our players as "busts" and "declining" that we have as fans on this team, we would have been calling for Jean Ratelle to be traded when he was 26.
The numbers are nice, but they don't tell the full story. Dubinsky went from being pretty much untouchable to being passed over by Callahan, Hagelin and Stepan with the likes of Kreider and Miller in waiting.

The fact is Dubinksy made Dubinsky disposable.

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11-08-2013, 10:24 AM
  #148
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There is no such thing as a 5th-8th finish anymore. The playoffs are set up within the division until the conference final against the Atlantic. If we land in the second spot in the Metro our path to the conference final is likely Capitals/Islanders and then Pittsburgh. There is nothing but injuries keeping this team from another shot at the ECF.

People seem to have rosier memories of the '12 playoffs than I do. We had to play elimination games against the 8th and 7th seeds. Actually we had to play 2 against the 8th seed. Getting to play the 8th, 7th and 6th seeds, none of them particularly good teams, the Rangers should have gotten to the cup finals well rested.

But the team looked beat up and exhausted. Opposing coaches were able to exploit our game plan with relative ease. Same story in pretty much every playoff series in recent memory.

The sad reality is that the Rangers have not "controlled" a playoff series since they beat the Devils in '08.
I wish I could live in such a fantasy world, I really do.

Where you can challenge the reality of winning 2 playoffs series for the first time since 1997, and follow it up with a gemstone fairy tale like this:

Quote:
There is nothing but injuries keeping this team from another shot at the ECF.
We all hope and pray that, if they make it that far for the 2nd time in almost 2 decades, they win in a way that is up to your expectations.

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11-08-2013, 10:25 AM
  #149
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What moves? Every move seems to be done in a vacuum. The Nash trade? It made the Gaborik trade necessary.

The McDonagh trade was brilliant. A complete fluke and a total bamboozling of a moron but it was brilliant.

The Prust trade was good.

Outside of that, I see trades that made to fix bad UFA signings and a revolving door of mediocrity.
Little revisionist history.
Most of this board agreed with and cheered for all those deals and "bad FA signings" at the time they were made.

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11-08-2013, 10:26 AM
  #150
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There is no such thing as a 5th-8th finish anymore. The playoffs are set up within the division until the conference final against the Atlantic. If we land in the second spot in the Metro our path to the conference final is likely Capitals/Islanders and then Pittsburgh. There is nothing but injuries keeping this team from another shot at the ECF.

People seem to have rosier memories of the '12 playoffs than I do. We had to play elimination games against the 8th and 7th seeds. Actually we had to play 2 against the 8th seed. Getting to play the 8th, 7th and 6th seeds, none of them particularly good teams, the Rangers should have gotten to the cup finals well rested.

But the team looked beat up and exhausted. Opposing coaches were able to exploit our game plan with relative ease. Same story in pretty much every playoff series in recent memory.

The sad reality is that the Rangers have not "controlled" a playoff series since they beat the Devils in '08.
This team is probably closer to finishing 5th to 8th in the conference in points than it is in the top 4. I disagree that injuries is what is holding us back from another ECF. Even when healthy, this roster would have a very difficult time beating Pitt. Wednesday's win doesn't change that.

There are still a lot of question marks on this roster. Hagelin and Kreider have played well but can they keep it up? When is Nash coming back and how will he play when he returns? Can Callahan stay healthy? Brassard, Pouliot, and Zucc are inconsistent and streaky, can they be relied upon? As good as McDonagh has been, our other defensemen have been pretty bad offensively. Another thing that concerns me is whether the Rangers have enough grit up and down the roster to battle through the playoffs.

So far as 2012 goes, regardless of the fact they didn't dominate as much as some would have liked, it still remains our best regular season and the furthest we have gone in the playoffs in the Sather era. The expectation that they could have built on that or at least replicated that is not unreasonable.

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