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Holmgren DOESN'T deserve to get fired

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Old
11-08-2013, 01:02 PM
  #76
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Your strategy (and Homer's) of trading those picks for the slight chance of winning now put this team first in a position where the team had to be blown to pieces, and led to the position the team is in now. It's a spectacularly failed strategy. You are advocating a failed strategy. Based on Homer's last year or two and the fact that he has moved away from such moves, he seems to think it was a failed strategy too.

I would take Richards over Schenn, Simmonds, and a 3rd in a heartbeat. Then again, if I were GM we wouldn't have needed to trade him because I wouldn't have drained the prospect pool to build the team irresponsibly and put them against the wall. This team of lazy quitters needs a guy with heart who never quits and also happens to be one of the best two way forwards in the game.

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11-08-2013, 01:03 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I would of kept Richards and made the Carter trade.

10 times out of 10.

AINEFC
I hated the Richards trade when it happened, I just thought I was biased because Richie was my favorite player. I hated losing him.

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11-08-2013, 01:12 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I would of kept Richards and made the Carter trade.

10 times out of 10.

AINEFC
Me too.

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11-08-2013, 01:14 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
. This team of lazy quitters needs a guy with heart who never quits and also happens to be one of the best two way forwards in the game.
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I hated the Richards trade when it happened, I just thought I was biased because Richie was my favorite player. I hated losing him.
Exactly. Richards would of looked out of place on this current team. one guy busting his tail while the 19 other candy ***** spread their legs and quit.
Even if Richards wasnt my favorite player I would of hated the deal. Simmonds had that one career year and since then hes been pretty below average at best. Jury is still out if Schenn turns into the player many think he can be but still its a deal I dont like.

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11-08-2013, 01:25 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Exactly. Richards would of looked out of place on this current team. one guy busting his tail while the 19 other candy ***** spread their legs and quit.
Even if Richards wasnt my favorite player I would of hated the deal. Simmonds had that one career year and since then hes been pretty below average at best. Jury is still out if Schenn turns into the player many think he can be but still its a deal I dont like.
Just out of curiosity, which players do you view as quitters right now? I blame the failure so far on other things than effort. If anything, many of our players constantly muck up because they're trying too hard. Overskating the puck and such. In the O-zone, that is.

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11-08-2013, 01:26 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Your strategy (and Homer's) of trading those picks for the slight chance of winning now put this team first in a position where the team had to be blown to pieces, and led to the position the team is in now. It's a spectacularly failed strategy. You are advocating a failed strategy. Based on Homer's last year or two and the fact that he has moved away from such moves, he seems to think it was a failed strategy too.
It isn't a spectacularly failed strategy. It is what teams do when they are close. Look around the league at the deadline. Picks and prospects go flying for that "missing piece." Some times it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. But you have to make those moves unless your team is perfect, which it rarely is. Also the reason he moved away from making those moves was that the team wasn't in the same position. You make those moves during a run for the Cup, not during a run for a lottery pick.

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I would take Richards over Schenn, Simmonds, and a 3rd in a heartbeat. Then again, if I were GM we wouldn't have needed to trade him because I wouldn't have drained the prospect pool to build the team irresponsibly and put them against the wall. This team of lazy quitters needs a guy with heart who never quits and also happens to be one of the best two way forwards in the game.
Fair enough. I'd rather have Simmer, Schenn, and that third.

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11-08-2013, 01:28 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wixztor View Post
Just out of curiosity, which players do you view as quitters right now? I blame the failure so far on other things than effort. If anything, many of our players constantly muck up because they're trying too hard. Overskating the puck and such. In the O-zone, that is.
I don't see an overall lack of effort either but I do see guys skating around like chickens with their heads cut off. Richie may not have had the most skill but God if he didn't go out there trying to make something happen. I think our guys have more skill, they just need to get fired up and try to lead by example. I'm talking out of my ass I don't know.

I'm not one of the people that opines for Richards since he's gone, I was upset for like 2 days and I got over it and was excited to see what Simmer and Schenn could bring. Still not giving up on them.

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11-08-2013, 01:30 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It isn't a spectacularly failed strategy. It is what teams do when they are close. Look around the league at the deadline. Picks and prospects go flying for that "missing piece." Some times it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. But you have to make those moves unless your team is perfect, which it rarely is. Also the reason he moved away from making those moves was that the team wasn't in the same position. You make those moves during a run for the Cup, not during a run for a lottery pick.
It's one thing to do that once in a while once you've built your team through the normal channels (the draft, FA). But to make it a regular, habitual practice year after year with first round picks and prospects is a recipe for disaster. That's what Homer did and it screwed the team royally.

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11-08-2013, 01:33 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wixztor View Post
Just out of curiosity, which players do you view as quitters right now? I blame the failure so far on other things than effort. If anything, many of our players constantly muck up because they're trying too hard. Overskating the puck and such. In the O-zone, that is.
did you watch the game last night? they folded it up for the night when the Devils scored that early goal.

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11-08-2013, 01:34 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I don't see an overall lack of effort either but I do see guys skating around like chickens with their heads cut off. Richie may not have had the most skill but God if he didn't go out there trying to make something happen. I think our guys have more skill, they just need to get fired up and try to lead by example. I'm talking out of my ass I don't know.

I'm not one of the people that opines for Richards since he's gone, I was upset for like 2 days and I got over it and was excited to see what Simmer and Schenn could bring. Still not giving up on them.
The point where I finally realized (nearly) the whole team had given up was after I saw two hits last night. One was a Giroux hit where he just half heartedly shoved a guy. The other was a Couturier hit that could have been the saddest "eh, no point in doing this" thing I've seen.

Giroux and Couturier have been our two best centers for better or for worse. Until that point neither one had given up. They had both gone out there and at least worked hard every shift even if the results weren't there. Watching those guys quit on a shift was deeply disturbing.

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11-08-2013, 01:52 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
did you watch the game last night? they folded it up for the night when the Devils scored that early goal.
I did watch it and they *** sucked. Not at all convinced that it's due to a lack of trying.

I'm not a hockey tactician like some on these boards. But what I think I see is this: in the tight offensive zone entry-situations where Lavi would have the players dump and chase, Berube instead wants them to skate it in along the boards. So they do, and try really hard in doing so. Voracek, for example, does this very frequently. But having no open space, they lose control more often than not. The play turns around and they have to play defense. Confidence is shot and gets even more shot for every failed zone entry. At the end of the night they might work a little less due to fatigue and increased confidence issues. But I don't think they ever stop giving it all. I really don't see that, personally.

Related to the above, I have a theory that the team needs to slow the game down a bit to improve. Looking at the highlights of other games, few of the goals are the result of a run-and-gun attacking sequence. Most are the result of fiddling around with puck patiently in the neutral zone and finding a man in some space. But the Flyers pretty much never create open scoring chances. Because we're forcing into the offensive zone with speed. I'd love to get some comments on this, because I don't think I have seen anyone on here propose this as a big cause for the problem.

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11-08-2013, 01:55 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's one thing to do that once in a while once you've built your team through the normal channels (the draft, FA). But to make it a regular, habitual practice year after year with first round picks and prospects is a recipe for disaster. That's what Homer did and it screwed the team royally.
To be clear, Homer did not trade first rounders at the deadline year after year. He did it once for Kris Versteeg. The first rounders he traded were for Timonen/Hartnell, Versteeg (deadline), Pronger (multiple), and Eminger/3rd. I'd say of those deals, most would do all but the Eminger deal again. I know I would.

It also should be noted that in that same time period Homer also obtained three first round picks. But that doesn't count right...because he traded away some?

Anyway, I will stick with my philosophy of going for it when close. You hoard your draft picks. Both ways will probably yield the same number of Cups. Zero.

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11-08-2013, 01:58 PM
  #88
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To be clear, Homer did not trade first rounders at the deadline year after year. He did it once for Kris Versteeg. The first rounders he traded were for Timonen/Hartnell, Versteeg (deadline), Pronger (multiple), and Eminger/3rd. I'd say of those deals, most would do all but the Eminger deal again. I know I would.

It also should be noted that in that same time period Homer also obtained three first round picks. But that doesn't count right...because he traded away some?

Anyway, I will stick with my philosophy of going for it when close. You hoard your draft picks. Both ways will probably yield the same number of Cups. Zero.
You're also forgetting the hordes of 2nd rounders he traded away...it goes beyond first rounders. We have basically been non-participants in a couple drafts, while also trading away prospects. It's a terrible recipe.


My way mirrors Detroit, but the way. They've managed to do just fine, eh? Much better than Homer's method.

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11-08-2013, 02:06 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're also forgetting the hordes of 2nd rounders he traded away...it goes beyond first rounders. We have basically been non-participants in a couple drafts, while also trading away prospects. It's a terrible recipe.


My way mirrors Detroit, but the way. They've managed to do just fine, eh? Much better than Homer's method.
I think others have pointed out that Detroit hasn't done as well as many think in the draft. I'd love to have a perfect GM. Hell I'd love to have a better GM than we have now, doesn't have to be perfect. But the bottom line is that most GMs are going to make similar moves to what Homer did. Obviously there are some outliers that would not be done again, but in retrospect, many of his moves made sense at the time. Including ones where he traded picks. And guess what...he also got picks and prospects back in return. I don't know the ratio, but I don't think it is as one-sided as you think.

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11-08-2013, 02:12 PM
  #90
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I think others have pointed out that Detroit hasn't done as well as many think in the draft. I'd love to have a perfect GM. Hell I'd love to have a better GM than we have now, doesn't have to be perfect. But the bottom line is that most GMs are going to make similar moves to what Homer did. Obviously there are some outliers that would not be done again, but in retrospect, many of his moves made sense at the time. Including ones where he traded picks. And guess what...he also got picks and prospects back in return. I don't know the ratio, but I don't think it is as one-sided as you think.
No, Detroit hasn't done that great relative to others; but the less obvious bonus of their strategy is it has allowed for a lot of organizational consistency. They've established a culture and built on it. They have maintained a stable core of good players and they've built around them.

The Flyers have not done that. Part of the reason is that Homer's strategy made such a thing impossible.


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11-08-2013, 02:22 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No, Detroit hasn't done that great relative to others; but the less obvious bonus of their strategy is it has allowed for a lot of organizational consistency. They've established a culture and built on it.
Sure, and again, I'd love it if the Flyers could do that, but as the rest of the league has shown, it isn't that easy. It's easy to say it is easy. And easy to say the GM should do X, Y, or Z, but at the end of the day, moves have to be made for a number of reasons. If the Flyers can get lucky with a Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the draft and keep them here for 20 years, great. If they can do that while also having arguably the best defenseman ever to play the game, even better! But again, these things don't just happen. It is rare.

I'm not saying it isn't something to strive for, because obviously it is, but let's not pretend like Homer doesn't want to do these things and he is just some madman who wants to make crazy trades. He makes the moves that need to be made for the most part. Many have paid dividends. Others have not. But sitting on your hands just so you can have draft picks doesn't mean you will be successful. It doesn't mean you will be unsuccessful either, but again, if given the choice of making a move for a chance to improve a team close to a Cup or not making a move to for a chance to improve a team down the line, I make the move every day of the week.

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11-08-2013, 02:24 PM
  #92
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Sitting on your hands with draft picks doesn't guarantee success (Edmonton), but constantly trading picks and prospects over a prolonged period does guarantee failure.

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11-08-2013, 02:32 PM
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He is doing the best he can, It is not like he wakes up in the morning and says what is the worst move I can make today and make this team bad and piss off the fans

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11-08-2013, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sitting on your hands with draft picks doesn't guarantee success (Edmonton), but constantly trading picks and prospects over a prolonged period does guarantee failure.
But again, this ignores the fact that Homer has also gotten draft picks/prospects in return. I know Homer has traded some away during this time period, but let's look at some of the picks/prospects he has gotten recently (since Carter/Richards which I will not include):

Mark Alt
2012 2nd
2012 4th
2013 4th
2012 2nd
2013 3rd
2013 3rd

He has traded away:

2012 6th
Stefan Leigen
2012 2nd
2013 3rd
2012 2nd
2013 4th
2013 4th
2014 7th
2015 3rd
Harry Z
Luke Pither

So he traded for 7 picks/prospects and traded away 11. Of the 7 he got, we have a decent prospect in Mark Alt (at least as decent as the ones we traded away) and no pick higher than 4th round. We got two seconds and traded two seconds, so they cancel out. Same thing with the thirds. And we traded two fourths and got two fourths, so they cancel out. So now we are looking at a net "loss" of a 6th rounder, a conditional 7th rounder, Stefan Legein, Harry Z, and Luke Pither. Hardly the crushing blow you are talking about. But yeah, Homer ****ed this team over by being too loose with these picks!

Go back further and I imagine things will look like this throughout his tenure here. I've wasted an absurd amount of time on here today. Ugh.

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11-08-2013, 02:48 PM
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But again, this ignores the fact that Homer has also gotten draft picks/prospects in return. I know Homer has traded some away during this time period, but let's look at some of the picks/prospects he has gotten recently (since Carter/Richards which I will not include):

Mark Alt
2012 2nd
2012 4th
2013 4th
2012 2nd
2013 3rd
2013 3rd

He has traded away:

2012 6th
Stefan Leigen
2012 2nd
2013 3rd
2012 2nd
2013 4th
2013 4th
2014 7th
2015 3rd
Harry Z
Luke Pither

So he traded for 7 picks/prospects and traded away 11. Of the 7 he got, we have a decent prospect in Mark Alt (at least as decent as the ones we traded away) and no pick higher than 4th round. We got two seconds and traded two seconds, so they cancel out. Same thing with the thirds. And we traded two fourths and got two fourths, so they cancel out. So now we are looking at a net "loss" of a 6th rounder, a conditional 7th rounder, Stefan Legein, Harry Z, and Luke Pither. Hardly the crushing blow you are talking about. But yeah, Homer ****ed this team over by being too loose with these picks!

Go back further and I imagine things will look like this throughout his tenure here. I've wasted an absurd amount of time on here today. Ugh.
Dude, you are looking at 2012 picks and on. That isn't where the problem began. That's after we went into rebuilding mode. The problem began way before that and led to an implosion.

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11-08-2013, 03:19 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Dude, you are looking at 2012 picks and on. That isn't where the problem began. That's after we went into rebuilding mode. The problem began way before that and led to an implosion.
I don't have time to go back and look at all the trades, haha. But I imagine that the outcome will look similar to that small sample size. Homer almost certainly has traded away more draft picks and prospects than he has obtained. No doubt about it. But I don't think it is as lopsided as you make it out to be. For many of the draft picks, Homer got good value. If you just want to say: "Homer traded away more picks and prospects than he got so he sucks," then I have no response because I'm sure he did do that. I don't think that means he sucks, but he almost certainly traded away more than he got back. But it is quality not quantity at which you should be looking.

I think what you'll find is the picks and prospects he got in return (plus the vets he got) had/have a bigger impact than the picks and prospects he traded have/would have had. Maybe someone with more time can do some kind of analysis. I could be dead wrong about this, but I think what you'll find is what I just described.

Someone from the THW or something want to write an article about this? That could settle this for everyone (or at least for me and Beef).

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11-08-2013, 03:23 PM
  #97
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It is that lopsided though. I'm still way too hungover (Thanks Flyers for making me drink Evan Williams, what swill that **** is) to put in the effort to make a list, but it's pretty much accepted common knowledge that we bled the prospect pool dry by trading away young guys and picks for a long time to go for the quick, often temporary fix. That practice only stopped after the team was blown up.

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11-08-2013, 03:34 PM
  #98
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Someone from the THW want to write an article about this?
Really? How about we ask for a well researched piece that isn't full of errors?

Here's a start (courtesy of a friend of mine):

- 1st rounder (John Carlson) for Steve Eminger
- 2nd rounder to LA to get rid of Gauthier
- Upshall and 2nd rounder (Lucas Lessio) to Phoenix for Carcillo – To save $300k in cap space
- Lupul, Sbisa, two first rounders (Emersen Etem and John Moore) for Pronger – Signed Pronger to maybe the dumbest contract ever
- Gagne as a salary dump to TB for Matt Walker and a 4th (Noebels) – Noebels at least has a little potential
- 2nd round pick (Colton Sissons) for Mezaros
- 1st rounder (Stuart Percy) and 3rd Rounder (Josh Leivo) for Kris Versteeg
- 2 3rd round picks (Oscar Sundqvist and Harrison Ruopp) for rights to the Cosmonaut – How did that work out? 2nd dumbest contract ever
- 2nd rounder (Devin Shore) and 3rd rounder for Grossman
- 2nd rounder and 4th rounder for Pavel Kubina (rental)
- Bob for 2nd rounder (Stolarz) and two 4th rounders (Taylor Leier) other 4th was moved (Justin Auger)

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11-08-2013, 03:57 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It is that lopsided though. I'm still way too hungover (Thanks Flyers for making me drink Evan Williams, what swill that **** is) to put in the effort to make a list, but it's pretty much accepted common knowledge that we bled the prospect pool dry by trading away young guys and picks for a long time to go for the quick, often temporary fix. That practice only stopped after the team was blown up.
Oops, forgot to respond to this...

I still think my hypothesis will be proven accurate. Yes more picks/prospects were dealt, but the picks/prospects we got in return are more valuable than the ones we traded away (plus the actual return we got for some of the picks/prospects had some nice impact as well).

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Really? How about we ask for a well researched piece that isn't full of errors?
Meh. I'm not really looking for their analysis on the issue, just a list of the deals.

Quote:
Here's a start (courtesy of a friend of mine):

- 1st rounder (John Carlson) for Steve Eminger
- 2nd rounder to LA to get rid of Gauthier
- Upshall and 2nd rounder (Lucas Lessio) to Phoenix for Carcillo – To save $300k in cap space
- Lupul, Sbisa, two first rounders (Emersen Etem and John Moore) for Pronger – Signed Pronger to maybe the dumbest contract ever
- Gagne as a salary dump to TB for Matt Walker and a 4th (Noebels) – Noebels at least has a little potential
- 2nd round pick (Colton Sissons) for Mezaros
- 1st rounder (Stuart Percy) and 3rd Rounder (Josh Leivo) for Kris Versteeg
- 2 3rd round picks (Oscar Sundqvist and Harrison Ruopp) for rights to the Cosmonaut – How did that work out? 2nd dumbest contract ever
- 2nd rounder (Devin Shore) and 3rd rounder for Grossman
- 2nd rounder and 4th rounder for Pavel Kubina (rental)
- Bob for 2nd rounder (Stolarz) and two 4th rounders (Taylor Leier) other 4th was moved (Justin Auger)
That's not really what I'm talking about. You can go to Flyershistory.net and see every single trade. I'm looking more for a breakdown of draft picks and prospects that were traded, kind of like how I was doing, but more organized. Then someone can go back and look at the larger deals that the picks/prospects were a part of and go from there. Just listing the trades doesn't really do much.

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11-08-2013, 03:58 PM
  #100
Beef Invictus
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This has turned into the laziest debate we've ever had.

We are both waiting for someone else to do our work for us.

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