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How Many Players Now Regret the Tortorella Firing?

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Old
11-09-2013, 03:32 PM
  #201
smoneil
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
Changing what I thought? I always thought that.
In fairness, I did a quick search on that, and you are right. You and one other person called his effort lackluster. That said, you did it in the same way you did it in this thread. You responded to people praising his effort and essentially said "no he isn't" or something along those lines. You also called him "so overrated that it's sickening." On the rare occasions that you DID offer anything resembling specific analysis of his game, you actually (unintentionally, I'm sure) ended up arguing that he gave a lot of effort (you critiqued his play by saying that when he was in a top 6 role, "he tried too hard to be a dynamo" and when he was on the 3rd line "he focused only on defense."

So yeah, you were one of the two or three people who despised him SO much that you refused to even give him credit for what everyone else saw (his effort level).

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Rebounded nicely? In his last 121 games he's put up 64 points, compared to 54 in 77 games that's not even close. He's scored 5 goals in his last 44 games. .11 GPG, a far cry from .31 GPG he produced here in '11-'12. He still has a ways to go before you can say he has rebounded nicely. He is playing well for CBJ sure, but he's also being spoon fed minutes that he wouldn't be getting here, which tends to lead to more production. Aside from a few hits and his assists I really didn't notice him much when we played them either, won some faceoffs but he didn't backcheck extremely hard or break up many plays.
And here's the bias again. Do you know what it means to "rebound"? It involves looking at how someone responds to a stretch of bad play. Including that bad play (particularly when it accounts for more than half of the games in the stat that you've so wonderfully manipulated here), defeats the purpose of looking at the rebound. Dubinsky has scored 30 points in 44 games, right back (actually a bit higher) than his pace of his 2010/2011 season here. So yes, he is very much "rebounding nicely."

Second--you don't judge a playmaker by his goal totals. It's dishonest and it's done by folks who are seeking to twist facts to fit their view (you know, that thing you sort of accused me of doing). Dubinsky got goals those two years because of playing the wing and getting a few empty nets. He's back at center (where he belongs), and naturally his assist totals are the important number to look at.

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11-09-2013, 03:58 PM
  #202
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Did someone up and change the definition of objective on me?
I didnt think the thought that the Rangers stunk through the first couple weeks was up for debate -- but I guess nothing should surprise me around here.

Im not quite sure where this Mr. Negativity stuff came from. I trashed Kreider, he played better, I praised Kreider. Same goes for the team as a whole. My perpetual complaining stems from the direction and performance of this team over an extended period of time under Sather. Im not about to live and die with each game, Im too old for that crap.

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11-09-2013, 04:07 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Here's a definition that most closely resembles what Drew and BRB think objectivity is, however they get the first half of it but not the second:



Drew thinks that because BRB and he are fans by being negative they're not being influenced by personal feelings. However they both forget the part about "representing facts". "The Rangers suck" is not a fact, it's an opinion.

BTW, I completely disagree with Drew and BRB's personal feelings not influencing their opinions too. Their feelings are completely influenced, just like the positive HFers. Except their feelings are negative, they see everything in a negative light as opposed to a positive light. Their hatred for Sather, if anything removes any pretense for not having personal feelings involved. When a team starts a season 2-6 and goes 6-2 the rest of the way to an 8-8 record and you only look at the poor injury riddled start with a team was learning a new system, it tells me that BRB is definitely letting his feelings dictate his "objective" opinions. When you ignore half the sample size to make your case, you CLEARLY have an agenda.
Everybody is influenced by personal feelings to a degree. When I state my opinion that this team as presently constructed isn't talented, big and tough enough to win a cup, that's just my opinion based on what I see which doesn't mean that opinion is being influenced by negative feelings.

When someone posts "that there are only 7-8 centers in the league that he would take over Derek Stepan" and another fan posts that "if McDonagh reaches 50 points this season, he is then a top 5 defenseman" , those are two posts that are affected by the fans positivity and blind loyalty to the team which, by the way, doesn't in any way, shape or form make them better Ranger's fans.

My opinions may be tinged with negativity and cynicism but that doesn't mean I don't love the team that I have been a fan of for over 50 years and it doesn't mean that I can't separate reality from perception.

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11-09-2013, 04:14 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I didnt think the thought that the Rangers stunk through the first couple weeks was up for debate -- but I guess nothing should surprise me around here.

Im not quite sure where this Mr. Negativity stuff came from. I trashed Kreider, he played better, I praised Kreider. Same goes for the team as a whole. My perpetual complaining stems from the direction and performance of this team over an extended period of time under Sather. Im not about to live and die with each game, Im too old for that crap.
Neither do I. Looks like it's us and a few of my close friends who are miscast as Ranger haters because we tend to be less tolerant of the lousy ownership and pathetic management that runs our favorite team.

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11-09-2013, 04:17 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Neither do I. Looks like it's us and a few of my close friends who are miscast as Ranger haters because we tend to be less tolerant of the lousy ownership and pathetic management that runs our favorite team.
That's because you guys do the exact opposite of what you accuse the positive fans to do. The positive fans see everything through a positive light and you see everything through a negative light. Both can be annoying but reading every post about how terrible the team is and how they won't win anything and need to rebuild wears on you.

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11-09-2013, 04:56 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Neither do I. Looks like it's us and a few of my close friends who are miscast as Ranger haters because we tend to be less tolerant of the lousy ownership and pathetic management that runs our favorite team.
I never ever gave much thought about who actally owns this club, but became curious. It's a Nasdaq share. http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/msg
(You probably knew that, but I became a fan when Zuke came.)

Top shareholder:

PRICE T ROWE ASSOCIATES INC /MD/ 5,432,286[/URL]
LUXOR CAPITAL GROUP, LP 4,975,253
VANGUARD GROUP INC 3,442,984
GAMCO INVESTORS, INC. ET AL 2,921,857
CLEARBRIDGE INVESTMENTS, LLC 2,758,645

Nice website: http://www.luxorcap.com/

I don't know, but it's very different from Norway

http://www.insidermonkey.com/hedge-f...tal+group/326/

Aside from using a value-based approach when choosing its stocks, Leone’s Luxor Capital also has a penchant for distressed companies

I think value based is pretty similar to distressed. Hopefully they will be gone soon

Not a lot of heart here though. Bying Brad Richards out would probably need to be flagged, so that (potential) news will break at Nasdaq?

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Old
11-09-2013, 05:28 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
In fairness, I did a quick search on that, and you are right. You and one other person called his effort lackluster. That said, you did it in the same way you did it in this thread. You responded to people praising his effort and essentially said "no he isn't" or something along those lines. You also called him "so overrated that it's sickening." On the rare occasions that you DID offer anything resembling specific analysis of his game, you actually (unintentionally, I'm sure) ended up arguing that he gave a lot of effort (you critiqued his play by saying that when he was in a top 6 role, "he tried too hard to be a dynamo" and when he was on the 3rd line "he focused only on defense."

So yeah, you were one of the two or three people who despised him SO much that you refused to even give him credit for what everyone else saw (his effort level).



And here's the bias again. Do you know what it means to "rebound"? It involves looking at how someone responds to a stretch of bad play. Including that bad play (particularly when it accounts for more than half of the games in the stat that you've so wonderfully manipulated here), defeats the purpose of looking at the rebound. Dubinsky has scored 30 points in 44 games, right back (actually a bit higher) than his pace of his 2010/2011 season here. So yes, he is very much "rebounding nicely."

Second--you don't judge a playmaker by his goal totals. It's dishonest and it's done by folks who are seeking to twist facts to fit their view (you know, that thing you sort of accused me of doing). Dubinsky got goals those two years because of playing the wing and getting a few empty nets. He's back at center (where he belongs), and naturally his assist totals are the important number to look at.
I'm going to go ahead and ignore 90% of this because I know for a fact more than myself and one other person called his efforts lackluster.

You're sure changing the definition of Dubinsky as a player to fit your argument. He was never strictly a playmaker here. In fact I remember a lot of people keying in on the fact that he was stationary a lot instead of moving his feet.

People tired of him because he wasn't scoring. No one expected him to score 10 goals and have 30 assists they expected him to score 20.

Obviously pointless to continue this conversation because what I think you really meant to say is that it's not fair to discredit Dubinsky for any reason. Your extreme bias and love of a player that doesn't even play for this team anymore is making it pretty difficult to have a discussion. So I'll agree to disagree.

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Old
11-09-2013, 05:29 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Ilovemymum View Post
I never ever gave much thought about who actally owns this club, but became curious. It's a Nasdaq share.
yeah of course, it's a public company. Daddy dolan bought the place with his cable television empire fortune, put his idiot son in charge, and took the company public.

Right now MSG is positioning itself to be an entertainment powerhouse. They're buying and running every venue they can get their hands on. Besides the Garden, in NY they now own Radio City Music Hall, the Beacon Theater, and they tried to get the Colliseum on Long Island but lost out to the Barclays center people. They own the Great Western Forum in LA and did a total gut job like the garden and have the place booked solid for shows

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11-09-2013, 05:50 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
I'm going to go ahead and ignore 90% of this because I know for a fact more than myself and one other person called his efforts lackluster.

You're sure changing the definition of Dubinsky as a player to fit your argument. He was never strictly a playmaker here. In fact I remember a lot of people keying in on the fact that he was stationary a lot instead of moving his feet.

People tired of him because he wasn't scoring. No one expected him to score 10 goals and have 30 assists they expected him to score 20.
Yeah, people were talking about him not moving his feet--on offense. He still, and always did, backcheck like a monster (you know, that stupid comment that started this segue). I'm also not changing a thing. He has never put up close to as many goals as he has assists at any level. You may have wanted him to be a goalscorer, but he's never been one. That's your problem, not his.

Quote:
Obviously pointless to continue this conversation because what I think you really meant to say is that it's not fair to discredit Dubinsky for any reason. Your extreme bias and love of a player that doesn't even play for this team anymore is making it pretty difficult to have a discussion. So I'll agree to disagree.
This is rich. The guy who says that a player "sickens" him and obviously (so obviously that it's clear you knew what you were doing) manipulates stats to try to appear "right" is calling me out for bias. You need only look as far as this thread to see me discredit Dubinsky for something (his idiocy in responding to his draught by not shooting altogether). The bias here is clear, and it's on your side. You are right that we should probably agree to disagree though.

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11-09-2013, 05:55 PM
  #210
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So correct me if I'm wrong... Dubinsky DOES regret Torts getting fired?

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11-09-2013, 06:14 PM
  #211
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That's because you guys do the exact opposite of what you accuse the positive fans to do. The positive fans see everything through a positive light and you see everything through a negative light. Both can be annoying but reading every post about how terrible the team is and how they won't win anything and need to rebuild wears on you.
I never said that the team is terrible so please stop exaggerating.

My stating that this team doesn't have enough talent, size, depth or physicality to win a cup is my opinion which is a heck of a lot closer to reality than some of the ridiculous comments that are found posted here.

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11-09-2013, 06:16 PM
  #212
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So correct me if I'm wrong... Dubinsky DOES regret Torts getting fired?
Funniest Poster 13-14

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11-09-2013, 06:19 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
I never said that the team is terrible so please stop exaggerating.

My stating that this team doesn't have enough talent, size, depth or physicality to win a cup is my opinion which is a heck of a lot closer to reality than some of the ridiculous comments that are found posted here.
Heres where you go wrong. How dare you have such expectations?

Just be happy with the gift of a hockey team that Dolan and Sather have bestowed upon us.

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11-09-2013, 06:35 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Heres where you go wrong. How dare you have such expectations?

Just be happy with the gift of a hockey team that Dolan and Sather have bestowed upon us.
And also being deliriously happy about the billion dollar transformation that these corporate shills(Crapwig, Giannotti, Rosen & Micheletti) babble on about incessantly.

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11-09-2013, 06:39 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
yeah of course, it's a public company. Daddy dolan bought the place with his cable television empire fortune, put his idiot son in charge, and took the company public.

Right now MSG is positioning itself to be an entertainment powerhouse. They're buying and running every venue they can get their hands on. Besides the Garden, in NY they now own Radio City Music Hall, the Beacon Theater, and they tried to get the Colliseum on Long Island but lost out to the Barclays center people. They own the Great Western Forum in LA and did a total gut job like the garden and have the place booked solid for shows
Thanks for the update! Not that good in English, and gut job seems to be a good thing? (depending on the subject?)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...term=Gut%20Job
English football is mostly owned by corrupt ex dictators or oligarks. Best thing is maybe that they are dependent on the fans to show up / returns.

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11-09-2013, 06:58 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
I never said that the team is terrible so please stop exaggerating.

My stating that this team doesn't have enough talent, size, depth or physicality to win a cup is my opinion which is a heck of a lot closer to reality than some of the ridiculous comments that are found posted here.
If it's your opinion, stop beating the "objectivity" drum. Just because your opinion differs from other people doesn't mean you're "just being honest", it's still your opinion. How do you know what's close to reality? Can you see the future?

Oh and the team is actually very deep, even on offense. We might play a ****ing Canadian Olympian on the 3rd line because our top 2 lines (all full of good players who have good chemistry) have played very well. Hell even our 4th line when healthy will have decent NHLers on it. Boyle and Moore are SOLID 3rd liners. The D is as deep as any in the league. What this team lacks is top end talent.

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11-09-2013, 07:12 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Ilovemymum View Post
Thanks for the update! Not that good in English, and gut job seems to be a good thing? (depending on the subject?)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...term=Gut%20Job
English football is mostly owned by corrupt ex dictators or oligarks. Best thing is maybe that they are dependent on the fans to show up / returns.
"Gut job" means a total renovation, where they take out everything and build it new from the inside. So yes that was a good thing for the forum and now they're competing with the staples center

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11-09-2013, 07:19 PM
  #218
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Yeah, people were talking about him not moving his feet--on offense. He still, and always did, backcheck like a monster (you know, that stupid comment that started this segue). I'm also not changing a thing. He has never put up close to as many goals as he has assists at any level. You may have wanted him to be a goalscorer, but he's never been one. That's your problem, not his.



This is rich. The guy who says that a player "sickens" him and obviously (so obviously that it's clear you knew what you were doing) manipulates stats to try to appear "right" is calling me out for bias. You need only look as far as this thread to see me discredit Dubinsky for something (his idiocy in responding to his draught by not shooting altogether). The bias here is clear, and it's on your side. You are right that we should probably agree to disagree though.
You're simply using a strawman argument and moving the goalposts so that Dubinsky can fit into YOUR definition of a good player. He didn't and doesn't always backcheck like a monster. Speaking in absolutes doesn't make your argument stronger. He isn't a goal scorer that is fine, but at every level he generally scored close to the same amount of goals and assists. He did it here and hasn't done it since '11-'12 so now you're saying he was never supposed to score goals, so those years were flukes? Good to know thank you for clarifying.

Everyone has bias, I don't dislike Dubinsky as a player I simply do not feel that he is as good as you think he is. He would be a great 3rd line center for our team. You called him out for not shooting altogether, real big knock. Maybe it's because his game fell apart and he wasn't even getting himself into good position. You also act like him not being active in the offensive zone is a good thing because he's willing to backcheck. I have never seen a player more romanticized in my life than Brandon Dubinsky.

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11-09-2013, 07:35 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
You're simply using a strawman argument and moving the goalposts so that Dubinsky can fit into YOUR definition of a good player. He didn't and doesn't always backcheck like a monster. Speaking in absolutes doesn't make your argument stronger. He isn't a goal scorer that is fine, but at every level he generally scored close to the same amount of goals and assists. He did it here and hasn't done it since '11-'12 so now you're saying he was never supposed to score goals, so those years were flukes? Good to know thank you for clarifying.

Everyone has bias, I don't dislike Dubinsky as a player I simply do not feel that he is as good as you think he is. He would be a great 3rd line center for our team. You called him out for not shooting altogether, real big knock. Maybe it's because his game fell apart and he wasn't even getting himself into good position. You also act like him not being active in the offensive zone is a good thing because he's willing to backcheck. I have never seen a player more romanticized in my life than Brandon Dubinsky.
I liked Dubinsky even though he was a stupid hockey player. He never really recognized what kind of player he should be. I think he thought he was a playmaker, and he just wasnt. Bottom line is he had one very good season, got paid for it, and was a liability after that. It happens. He was the centerpiece for one of the better players in the game, so theres that.

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11-09-2013, 07:53 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
If it's your opinion, stop beating the "objectivity" drum. Just because your opinion differs from other people doesn't mean you're "just being honest", it's still your opinion. How do you know what's close to reality? Can you see the future?

Oh and the team is actually very deep, even on offense. We might play a ****ing Canadian Olympian on the 3rd line because our top 2 lines (all full of good players who have good chemistry) have played very well. Hell even our 4th line when healthy will have decent NHLers on it. Boyle and Moore are SOLID 3rd liners. The D is as deep as any in the league. What this team lacks is top end talent.
Top end talent, size, strength, physicality, etcetera.

Nobody knows what's close to reality. Me? I can only go with my heart and my head and on that basis, I don't see a roster as presently constructed(with or w/o Nash who is very soft) anywhere near ready to win a cup.
Btw, our defense may be deep but it is way overrated and very, very soft!

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11-09-2013, 07:55 PM
  #221
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I liked Dubinsky even though he was a stupid hockey player. He never really recognized what kind of player he should be. I think he thought he was a playmaker, and he just wasnt. Bottom line is he had one very good season, got paid for it, and was a liability after that. It happens. He was the centerpiece for one of the better players in the game, so theres that.
Exactly. I may have said things in the past that were hyperbole out of frustration with Dubinsky. He's a fine player, just not as good as some make him out to be. He's capable of producing around 40 pts maybe a bit more but that's about all he brings offensively. Defensively he is definitely above average, I'd say he brought an intensity to the game about 80% of the time that really helped the team and was one of his strongest assets.

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11-09-2013, 08:05 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I liked Dubinsky even though he was a stupid hockey player. He never really recognized what kind of player he should be. I think he thought he was a playmaker, and he just wasnt. Bottom line is he had one very good season, got paid for it, and was a liability after that. It happens. He was the centerpiece for one of the better players in the game, so theres that.
Holy **** I agree 100%.

Well, if the Eagles can tour together after 20 years, anything can happen I guess.

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11-09-2013, 08:09 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Top end talent, size, strength, physicality, etcetera.

Nobody knows what's close to reality. Me? I can only go with my heart and my head and on that basis, I don't see a roster as presently constructed(with or w/o Nash who is very soft) anywhere near ready to win a cup.
Btw, our defense may be deep but it is way overrated and very, very soft!
What defense isn't soft? Ds nowadays are all about skating, which ours can do in spades. Chicago's defense isn't exactly some sort of standard for physicality.

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11-09-2013, 08:10 PM
  #224
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Everybody had every reason to love Dubinsky. The bottom line is that he stopped being a difference maker. Sather saw that and made a move.

Trust me. I liked the kid and it sucked watching him struggle. But for every scoring chance he had or set up, there were 10 times as many blind centering passes leading to odd man rushes. When your center is behind the net and his centering pass is intercepted, he's automatically the last guy back in transition, but with his speed, there was no excusing some of the plays he failed to make defensively.

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11-09-2013, 11:53 PM
  #225
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What defense isn't soft? Ds nowadays are all about skating, which ours can do in spades. Chicago's defense isn't exactly some sort of standard for physicality.
McD is the only great skater; Staal is better than average but in some games spends more time off his skates than on; DZ is an average skater at best and Stralman constantly gets beat to the outside and Girardi is also no better than average.



Chicago? Let's not get silly and try to compare our "D" to theirs.

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