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Holmgren DOESN'T deserve to get fired

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Old
11-08-2013, 05:10 PM
  #101
CanadianFlyer88
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Holmgren was named GM in November 2006. Since then, here are the transactions that involved draft picks:

Traded:

2007 4th rounder (sent to ANA to acquire Todd Fedoruk)
2007 3rd rounder (sent to NYI with Freddy Meyer to acquire Alexei Zhitnik)
2008 5th rounder (sent to NYI with Randy Robitaille to acquire Mike York)
2007 2nd rounder (sent to BUF to acquire Marty Biron)
2007 1st rounder (sent to NSH to acquire rights to Kimmo Timonen and Scott Hartnell)
2008 2nd rounder (sent to WSH with 2007 3rd rounder for 2007 2nd rounder)
2007 3rd rounder (sent to WSH with 2008 2nd rounder for 2007 2nd rounder)
2009 3rd rounder (sent to EDM with Geoff Sanderson & Joni Pitkanen for Jason Smith & Joffrey Lupul)
2008 3rd rounder (sent to LA for Jaroslav Modry)
2009 2nd rounder (sent to TB with Alexandre Picard for Vinny Prospal)
2008 4th rounder (sent to CBJ with RJ Umberger for 2008 1st rounder & 2008 3rd rounder)
2008 1st rounder (sent to WSH for Steve Eminger and 2008 3rd rounder)
2008 7th rounder (sent to ANA for 2009 7th rounder)
2009 7th rounder (sent to NSH with Tristan Grant for Janne Niskala)
2010 2nd rounder (sent to LA with Denis Gauthier for Patrick Hersley & Ned Lukacevic)
2009 4th rounder (sent to Boston with Ned Lukacevic for Andrew Alberts)
2009 4th rounder (sent to TB with Steve Eminger & Steve Downie for Matt Carle & 2009 3rd rounder)
2011 2nd rounder (sent to PHX with Scottie Upshall for Dan Carcillo)
2009 1st rounder (sent to ANA with Luca Sbisa, 2010 1st rounder & 2011 3rd rounder for Chris Pronger & Ryan Dingle)
2010 1st rounder (sent in trade above)
2011 3rd rounder (sent in trade above)
2011 5th rounder (sent to DET with Ole-Kristian Tollefsen for Ville Leino)
2011 2nd rounder (sent to TB for Andrej Meszaros)
2011 1st rounder (sent to TOR with 2011 3rd rounder for Kris Versteeg)
2011 3rd rounder (sent to TOR with 2011 1st rounder for Kris Versteeg)
2011 3rd rounder (sent to PHX with 2012 3rd rounder and Matt Clackson for rights to Ilya Bryzgalov)
2012 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2012 6th rounder (sent to LA with Stefan Legein for future considerations)
2012 2nd rounder (sent to DAL with 2013 3rd rounder for Niklas Grossmann)
2013 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2012 2nd rounder (sent to TB with Jon Kalinski & 2013 4th rounder for Pavel Kubina)
2013 4th rounder (from trade above)
2013 4th rounder (sent to LA for Simon Gagne)
2015 3rd rounder (sent to CBJ with Michael Leighton for Steve Mason)

Acquired:

2007 1st rounder (acquired with Scottie Upshall and Ryan Parent from NSH for Peter Forsberg)
2007 3rd rounder (acquired with the above)
2007 3rd rounder (acquired with Lasse Kukkonen from CHI for Kyle Calder)
2007 2nd rounder (acquired from WSH for 2008 2nd rounder & 2007 3rd rounder)
2009 7th rounder (acquired from DAL for Jussi Timonen)
2009 3rd rounder (acquired from CGY for Jim Vandermeer)
2008 7th rounder (acquired from TB for Vinny Prospal)
2008 1st rounder (acquired from CBJ with 2008 3rd rounder for RJ Umberger and 2008 4th rounder)
2008 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2008 3rd rounder (acquired from WSH with Steve Eminger for 2008 1st rounder)
2009 7th rounder (acquired from ANA for 2008 7th rounder)
2009 6th rounder (acquired from TB for Janne Niskala)
2009 3rd rounder (acquired from TB with Matt Carle for Steve Eminger, Steve Downie & 2009 4th rounder)
2011 3rd rounder (acquired from PIT for rights to Dan Hamhuis)
2010 7th rounder (acquired from CAR for Jon Matsumoto)
2011 4th rounder (acquired from TB with Matt Walker for Simon Gagne)
2011 1st rounder (acquired from CBJ with 2011 3rd rounder & Jake Voracek for Jeff Carter)
2011 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2012 2nd rounder (acquired from LA with Brayden Schenn & Wayne Simmonds for Mike Richards & Rob Bordson)
2013 3rd rounder (acquired from MIN for Darroll Powe)
2012 2nd rounder (acquired from FLA with 2012 3rd rounder for Kris Versteeg)
2012 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2012 2nd rounder (acquired from CBJ with 2012 4th rounder & 2013 4th rounder for Sergei Bobrovsky)
2012 4th rounder (from trade above)
2013 4th rounder (from trade above)


There might be some error on years where conditional picks were involved and I tried to eliminate trades where conditions weren't met (like a 2014 pick for Kent Huskins)... but there's the list of picks Holmgren has acquired or dealt.

In summary, he has traded five 1sts, eight 2nds, ten 3rds, six 4ths, two 5ths, one 6th and two 7ths. He has acquired three 1sts, four 2nds, ten 3rds, three 4ths, no 5ths, one 6th and four 7ths.

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Last edited by CanadianFlyer88: 11-09-2013 at 02:56 AM.
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Old
11-08-2013, 07:05 PM
  #102
TheCerebral1
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All I have to say to this is....WHAT?

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11-08-2013, 08:55 PM
  #103
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That's an insane amount of draft pick trading. We all knew that, but it's still insane to see some numbers attached to it.

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11-09-2013, 01:40 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
That's an insane amount of draft pick trading. We all knew that, but it's still insane to see some numbers attached to it.
if you trade for or trade enough draft picks you are bound to get a few right.

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11-09-2013, 09:37 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
That's an insane amount of draft pick trading. We all knew that, but it's still insane to see some numbers attached to it.
I think it's more about the management in trading the picks as opposed to the trades themselves. How many did Holmgren dump in moves he ****ed up? 2nd round picks to send with Gauthier and Upshall were both abhorrently unnecessary.

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11-09-2013, 09:48 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Holmgren was named GM in November 2006. Since then, here are the transactions that involved draft picks:

Traded:

2007 4th rounder (sent to ANA to acquire Todd Fedoruk)
2007 3rd rounder (sent to NYI with Freddy Meyer to acquire Alexei Zhitnik)
2008 5th rounder (sent to NYI with Randy Robitaille to acquire Mike York)
2007 2nd rounder (sent to BUF to acquire Marty Biron)
2007 1st rounder (sent to NSH to acquire rights to Kimmo Timonen and Scott Hartnell)
2008 2nd rounder (sent to WSH with 2007 3rd rounder for 2007 2nd rounder)
2007 3rd rounder (sent to WSH with 2008 2nd rounder for 2007 2nd rounder)
2009 3rd rounder (sent to EDM with Geoff Sanderson & Joni Pitkanen for Jason Smith & Joffrey Lupul)
2008 3rd rounder (sent to LA for Jaroslav Modry)
2009 2nd rounder (sent to TB with Alexandre Picard for Vinny Prospal)
2008 4th rounder (sent to CBJ with RJ Umberger for 2008 1st rounder & 2008 3rd rounder)
2008 1st rounder (sent to WSH for Steve Eminger and 2008 3rd rounder)
2008 7th rounder (sent to ANA for 2009 7th rounder)
2009 7th rounder (sent to NSH with Tristan Grant for Janne Niskala)
2010 2nd rounder (sent to LA with Denis Gauthier for Patrick Hersley & Ned Lukacevic)
2009 4th rounder (sent to Boston with Ned Lukacevic for Andrew Alberts)
2009 4th rounder (sent to TB with Steve Eminger & Steve Downie for Matt Carle & 2009 3rd rounder)
2011 2nd rounder (sent to PHX with Scottie Upshall for Dan Carcillo)
2009 1st rounder (sent to ANA with Luca Sbisa, 2010 1st rounder & 2011 3rd rounder for Chris Pronger & Ryan Dingle)
2010 1st rounder (sent in trade above)
2011 3rd rounder (sent in trade above)
2011 5th rounder (sent to DET with Ole-Kristian Tollefsen for Ville Leino)
2011 2nd rounder (sent to TB for Andrej Meszaros)
2011 1st rounder (sent to TOR with 2011 3rd rounder for Kris Versteeg)
2011 3rd rounder (sent to TOR with 2011 1st rounder for Kris Versteeg)
2011 3rd rounder (sent to PHX with 2012 3rd rounder and Matt Clackson for rights to Ilya Bryzgalov)
2012 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2012 6th rounder (sent to LA with Stefan Legein for future considerations)
2012 2nd rounder (sent to DAL with 2013 3rd rounder for Niklas Grossmann)
2013 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2012 2nd rounder (sent to TB with Jon Kalinski & 2013 4th rounder for Pavel Kubina)
2013 4th rounder (from trade above)
2013 4th rounder (sent to LA for Simon Gagne)
2015 3rd rounder (sent to CBJ with Michael Leighton for Steve Mason)

Acquired:

2007 1st rounder (acquired with Scottie Upshall and Ryan Parent from NSH for Peter Forsberg)
2007 3rd rounder (acquired with the above)
2007 3rd rounder (acquired with Lasse Kukkonen from CHI for Kyle Calder)
2007 2nd rounder (acquired from WSH for 2008 2nd rounder & 2007 3rd rounder)
2009 7th rounder (acquired from DAL for Jussi Timonen)
2009 3rd rounder (acquired from CGY for Jim Vandermeer)
2008 7th rounder (acquired from TB for Vinny Prospal)
2008 1st rounder (acquired from CBJ with 2008 3rd rounder for RJ Umberger and 2008 4th rounder)
2008 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2008 3rd rounder (acquired from WSH with Steve Eminger for 2008 1st rounder)
2009 7th rounder (acquired from ANA for 2008 7th rounder)
2009 6th rounder (acquired from TB for Janne Niskala)
2009 3rd rounder (acquired from TB with Matt Carle for Steve Eminger, Steve Downie & 2009 4th rounder)
2011 3rd rounder (acquired from PIT for rights to Dan Hamhuis)
2010 7th rounder (acquired from CAR for Jon Matsumoto)
2011 4th rounder (acquired from TB with Matt Walker for Simon Gagne)
2011 1st rounder (acquired from CBJ with 2011 3rd rounder & Jake Voracek for Jeff Carter)
2011 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2012 2nd rounder (acquired from LA with Brayden Schenn & Wayne Simmonds for Mike Richards & Rob Bordson)
2013 3rd rounder (acquired from MIN for Darroll Powe)
2012 2nd rounder (acquired from FLA with 2012 3rd rounder for Kris Versteeg)
2012 3rd rounder (from trade above)
2012 2nd rounder (acquired from CBJ with 2012 4th rounder & 2013 4th rounder for Sergei Bobrovsky)
2012 4th rounder (from trade above)
2013 4th rounder (from trade above)


There might be some error on years where conditional picks were involved and I tried to eliminate trades where conditions weren't met (like a 2014 pick for Kent Huskins)... but there's the list of picks Holmgren has acquired or dealt.

In summary, he has traded five 1sts, eight 2nds, ten 3rds, six 4ths, two 5ths, one 6th and two 7ths. He has acquired three 1sts, four 2nds, ten 3rds, three 4ths, no 5ths, one 6th and four 7ths.
In other words, exactly like I said. Yes he traded away more than he got, but it isn't some absurd number that clearly points to the ruination of the franchise, especially when you factor in the returns on some of those deals (Pronger, Versteeg, Mez, Leino, etc).

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Old
11-09-2013, 11:36 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
In other words, exactly like I said. Yes he traded away more than he got, but it isn't some absurd number that clearly points to the ruination of the franchise, especially when you factor in the returns on some of those deals (Pronger, Versteeg, Mez, Leino, etc).
Look carefully. A LOT of those picks are downgrades and the list he gave up is smaller than what he acquired. Then there's also the young players and prospects he shipped out.

In 2008 they didn't have a 2nd. In 2009 they had no 1st or 2nd. In 2010 they had not 1st or 2nd. 2011, no 2nd; they only had a first because Homer nuked the core. Then in 2012 they started keeping picks after Homer blew up the team.

Three years in a row where you're missing high draft picks where the majority of NHL players come from flat out isn't good.

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Last edited by Beef Invictus: 11-09-2013 at 11:56 AM.
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11-09-2013, 12:05 PM
  #108
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Beef and DFF are on the extreme ends of the same topic. This happens a lot. It appears like they are polar opposites in every sense of the term and it amuses me to no end.

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11-09-2013, 07:09 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
Beef and DFF are on the extreme ends of the same topic. This happens a lot. It appears like they are polar opposites in every sense of the term and it amuses me to no end.
The Jester and Chris Shafer arguments were much more heated. Page after page of insults back and forth.

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11-09-2013, 07:28 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
In other words, exactly like I said. Yes he traded away more than he got, but it isn't some absurd number that clearly points to the ruination of the franchise, especially when you factor in the returns on some of those deals (Pronger, Versteeg, Mez, Leino, etc).


He was bidding against himself in all those trades for those players. (Leino deal aside)
The Pronger trade was fine. He got lucky with the Leino trade.
he overpaid for Versteeg(especially when the Flyers were the only team who even made an offer for him) the Meszaros trade turned out to be horrid bad.

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11-09-2013, 08:51 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
He was bidding against himself in all those trades for those players. (Leino deal aside)
The Pronger trade was fine. He got lucky with the Leino trade.
he overpaid for Versteeg(especially when the Flyers were the only team who even made an offer for him) the Meszaros trade turned out to be horrid bad.
Only because of what injuries have done to him. Something that couldn't be foreseen. He was a very durable player when he was acquired.

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11-09-2013, 09:26 PM
  #112
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While no one could have foreseen Emery's hip issues, he was the cheap starter option and a wildcard due to his exit from Ottawa and subsequent stint in the KHL.

He was the cheap fix because they didn't want to pay Biron. Biron was a goalie who finally put up solid numbers for the Flyers in back-to-back seasons for the first time in years and they chose not to pay him starter money (and many fans agreed with the decision).

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11-09-2013, 09:49 PM
  #113
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Haha wow 8 2nd round picks. Classic.

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11-09-2013, 10:09 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Look carefully. A LOT of those picks are downgrades and the list he gave up is smaller than what he acquired. Then there's also the young players and prospects he shipped out.

In 2008 they didn't have a 2nd. In 2009 they had no 1st or 2nd. In 2010 they had not 1st or 2nd. 2011, no 2nd; they only had a first because Homer nuked the core. Then in 2012 they started keeping picks after Homer blew up the team.

Three years in a row where you're missing high draft picks where the majority of NHL players come from flat out isn't good.
So in other words...exactly like i said? They traded more than they got back, but it is not as lopsided as you are making it out to be. Two more first rounders, four more seconds, the same thirds, two more fourths, two more fifths, the same sixths, and two less sevenths. In total, eight more picks were traded than received.

Two of the five firsts traded were for Pronger. Another first (and a third) was for Versteeg in a deal that was made when the team appeared relatively close to making a run for the Cup. Another went for the rights to Hartnell and Timonen. A second got them Mez, who but for the injuries was a solid pickup. Another second went for Biron who was a solid starter for a year or two. Another second (and a third) went for Grossmann, who has been pretty good for this team, no? A third went for Mason. Another third went in a deal that brought Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul back.

Another first went for Eminger. A second went for Carcillo. Another second went for Kubina.

So yeah, some of the trades were bad. Some were good. And some were "meh." But I guess that Eminger, Carcillo, and Kubina deal outweigh bringing in two captains, a starting goalie, a top pairing guy, a 30 goal scorer, and some other garbage.

I guess you are right. I would rather have had first round picks than these guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
He was bidding against himself in all those trades for those players. (Leino deal aside)
Oh, he was? Ok. That makes sense. This is a great vague response that doesn't really mean anything and there is no way to refute it other than to say, "nuh-uh!" But you are probably right. I bet in all those trades no one else was interested and the team just tricked Homer!

Quote:
The Pronger trade was fine.
Deal.

Quote:
He got lucky with the Leino trade.
Haha. The classic Holmgren attack! He got lucky! It was obvious! No way he knew what he was doing!

Quote:
he overpaid for Versteeg(especially when the Flyers were the only team who even made an offer for him)
What should have Holmgren paid for him? He was a sub 25 year old who scored 20+ goals in back to back seasons and was under contract for another year. What's the going price tag for that? A second and a third? Just a third? Just a second? What would you trade Matt Read for? That is a pretty close analogue, no? Read is older but probably a little more complete. Would you take less than a first and third for him? (Now you say MATT READ IS WAY BETTER THAN VERSTEEG WAS WHEN WE TRADED FOR HIM).

Quote:
the Meszaros trade turned out to be horrid bad.
Really just because of injuries though. Before he went down he was clearly worth that 2nd rounder. Can't fault Homer for guys getting injured.

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11-09-2013, 11:58 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
(Now you say MATT READ IS WAY BETTER THAN VERSTEEG WAS WHEN WE TRADED FOR HIM).
.

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11-10-2013, 12:54 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Look carefully. A LOT of those picks are downgrades and the list he gave up is smaller than what he acquired. Then there's also the young players and prospects he shipped out.

In 2008 they didn't have a 2nd. In 2009 they had no 1st or 2nd. In 2010 they had not 1st or 2nd. 2011, no 2nd; they only had a first because Homer nuked the core. Then in 2012 they started keeping picks after Homer blew up the team.

Three years in a row where you're missing high draft picks where the majority of NHL players come from flat out isn't good.
In fairness, he did some of that to get Pronger. And that almost got us a cup. And yes, before Pronger got hurt he was slowing down but he still had a 45 point pace his 2nd last year and had 12 points in 13 games in his last season.

Also, when you are always buyers and in the playoffs, you never recoup picks.

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11-10-2013, 08:20 AM
  #117
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Also, when you are always buyers and in the playoffs, you never recoup picks.
That's not entirely true. The Blackhawks and Sharks in the past did pretty good with it. They also often traded with teams whose GM's are certified idiots.


He also doesn't get a pass because of the Pronger trade. He gave up a lot, took a shot, got unlucky. But that isn't an excuse for the organization to be in complete disarray. The Bruins lost Marc Savard, Phil Kessel, and Tim Thomas, and seem to be doing fine.


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11-10-2013, 09:35 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
No response to anything else in that post? The true sign of a man confident in his argument. Resulting to petty insults. Bravo.

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11-10-2013, 09:46 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
That's not entirely true. The Blackhawks and Sharks in the past did pretty good with it. They also often traded with teams whose GM's are certified idiots.


He also doesn't get a pass because of the Pronger trade. He gave up a lot, took a shot, got unlucky. But that isn't an excuse for the organization to be in complete disarray. The Bruins lost Marc Savard, Phil Kessel, and Tim Thomas, and seem to be doing fine.
The bruins situation is entirely different. They didn't "lose" Kessel...they traded him for two first rounders and a second rounder. They also didn't "lose" Tim aThomas, they replaced him with a younger, cheaper, first rounder named Tuuka Rask. But they did lose Marc Savard. So I guess its kind of similar to losing your Hall of Fame franchise captain defenseman after trading a ton for him.

EDIT: Also the Blackhawks sucked for a bout a decade and a half before they landed some pretty high picks, and blew up both Stanley Cup teams after winning (which, was greatly panned around here IIRC). Also the Sharks are in no better of a place than the Flyers are. No Cups. They haven't even been to the Cup finals. But they have all those picks and prospects, right? Working out pretty well for them...


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11-10-2013, 12:57 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So in other words...exactly like i said? They traded more than they got back, but it is not as lopsided as you are making it out to be. Two more first rounders, four more seconds, the same thirds, two more fourths, two more fifths, the same sixths, and two less sevenths. In total, eight more picks were traded than received.

Two of the five firsts traded were for Pronger. Another first (and a third) was for Versteeg in a deal that was made when the team appeared relatively close to making a run for the Cup. Another went for the rights to Hartnell and Timonen. A second got them Mez, who but for the injuries was a solid pickup. Another second went for Biron who was a solid starter for a year or two. Another second (and a third) went for Grossmann, who has been pretty good for this team, no? A third went for Mason. Another third went in a deal that brought Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul back.

Another first went for Eminger. A second went for Carcillo. Another second went for Kubina.

So yeah, some of the trades were bad. Some were good. And some were "meh." But I guess that Eminger, Carcillo, and Kubina deal outweigh bringing in two captains, a starting goalie, a top pairing guy, a 30 goal scorer, and some other garbage.

I guess you are right. I would rather have had first round picks than these guys.



Oh, he was? Ok. That makes sense. This is a great vague response that doesn't really mean anything and there is no way to refute it other than to say, "nuh-uh!" But you are probably right. I bet in all those trades no one else was interested and the team just tricked Homer!



Deal.



Haha. The classic Holmgren attack! He got lucky! It was obvious! No way he knew what he was doing!



What should have Holmgren paid for him? He was a sub 25 year old who scored 20+ goals in back to back seasons and was under contract for another year. What's the going price tag for that? A second and a third? Just a third? Just a second? What would you trade Matt Read for? That is a pretty close analogue, no? Read is older but probably a little more complete. Would you take less than a first and third for him? (Now you say MATT READ IS WAY BETTER THAN VERSTEEG WAS WHEN WE TRADED FOR HIM).



Really just because of injuries though. Before he went down he was clearly worth that 2nd rounder. Can't fault Homer for guys getting injured.
My mind is truly blown that you can look the state of the prospect pool and still believe that 3-4 straight years of having no meaningful draft picks had marginal impact. Especially since we have to nuke the team because said draft pool was so empty we could call nobody up to fill any spots whatsoever and were looking like FA and trades were the only possible options, with FA beign unfeasible because of the cap situation.

It comes off as revisionism at this point. Like you're trying to convince us things weren't as bad as they were. Sorry, my memory is better than that. There's a reason we knew going into the 2011 season that major parts of the team were being shipped out due to sheer necessity.

That reason: years of aggressive building, poor cap management, trading away picks and young players and prospects had left the team in an untenable situation where there were more holes to fill than could be filled from within or via FA. The point had been reached where adding to the team without breaking it apart wasn't an option.

Somehow, most teams manage to avoid this fate.

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11-10-2013, 01:05 PM
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My mind is truly blown that you can look the state of the prospect pool and still believe that 3-4 straight years of having no meaningful draft picks had marginal impact. Especially since we have to nuke the team because said draft pool was so empty we could call nobody up to fill any spots whatsoever and were looking like FA and trades were the only possible options, with FA beign unfeasible because of the cap situation.

It comes off as revisionism at this point. Like you're trying to convince us things weren't as bad as they were. Sorry, my memory is better than that. There's a reason we knew going into the 2011 season that major parts of the team were being shipped out due to sheer necessity.
I'm not talking about it like it didn't have an impact on our prospects. I never was. Any time you trade a first rounder you miss out on a prospect. The two most impactful picks were the ones dealt in the Pronged deal. A deal I would do over and over. The other went for Versteeg, again a trade that looked like got the Flyers a young, affordable, scoring winger.

But those are trades that had to be made. Keeping them would have helped the future but wouldn't have improved teams that appeared close. We've been over this ad nauseum for years. I'd take the shot for the upgrade this season if they look close, you'd keep the picks and take the upgrade down the line.

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11-10-2013, 01:08 PM
  #122
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I'm not talking about it like it didn't have an impact on our prospects. I never was. Any time you trade a first rounder you miss out on a prospect. The two most impactful picks were the ones dealt in the Pronged deal. A deal I would do over and over. The other went for Versteeg, again a trade that looked like got the Flyers a young, affordable, scoring winger.

But those are trades that had to be made. Keeping them would have helped the future but wouldn't have improved teams that appeared close. We've been over this ad nauseum for years. I'd take the shot for the upgrade this season if they look close, you'd keep the picks and take the upgrade down the line.
The problem with Versteeg is they didn't keep him and gave up on him after he didn't excel while injured. That's just beyond stupid, and then they traded him without getting a first back. I was also fine with that trade. I liked it. When they traded him away immediately, though, it instantly became a pointless waste of a first.

Sorry, that's flat out stupid by management.


Edit: For the millionth time, those trades only HAD to be made because of Homer's mismanagement. Most teams manage to keep their core players and build around them without blowing the team up.

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11-10-2013, 01:42 PM
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The problem with Versteeg is they didn't keep him and gave up on him after he didn't excel while injured. That's just beyond stupid, and then they traded him without getting a first back. I was also fine with that trade. I liked it. When they traded him away immediately, though, it instantly became a pointless waste of a first.

Sorry, that's flat out stupid by management.
I thought they were going to keep Versteeg but they didn't like what they saw. It sucks they didn't get that first back, but I wouldn't call it a waste. I know that you would rather hang on to the picks rather than go for it in the here and now, but trading for Versteeg, even as a rental, is not "flat out stupid" by the management. He had promise. The Flyers were, IIRC, at or near the top of the Conference (maybe even the league, but I don't remember).

Again, you don't subscribe to this philosophy, but to me, trading a draft pick, even a first rounder, for a guy that I think is the missing piece on a Cup winning team, is something I would do every single day of the week. In this case, it was for a guy the management likely planned to keep around. It didn't work out, for whatever reason, but even if going in we knew it would have been a rental, I still would have done it.

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Edit: For the millionth time, those trades only HAD to be made because of Homer's mismanagement. Most teams manage to keep their core players and build around them without blowing the team up.
What was the mismanagement that led to the Flyers trading for Pronger? And for Versteeg? What core players were traded that Pronger replaced? And Versteeg replaced a core player? My recollection was that Versteeg was a deadline deal improvement, not replacing someone. I thought the mismanagement led to trading Richards and Carter? Did I miss something or did you misread what I was writing about?

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11-10-2013, 01:46 PM
  #124
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I thought they were going to keep Versteeg but they didn't like what they saw. It sucks they didn't get that first back, but I wouldn't call it a waste. I know that you would rather hang on to the picks rather than go for it in the here and now, but trading for Versteeg, even as a rental, is not "flat out stupid" by the management. He had promise. The Flyers were, IIRC, at or near the top of the Conference (maybe even the league, but I don't remember).

Again, you don't subscribe to this philosophy, but to me, trading a draft pick, even a first rounder, for a guy that I think is the missing piece on a Cup winning team, is something I would do every single day of the week. In this case, it was for a guy the management likely planned to keep around. It didn't work out, for whatever reason, but even if going in we knew it would have been a rental, I still would have done it.



What was the mismanagement that led to the Flyers trading for Pronger? And for Versteeg? What core players were traded that Pronger replaced? And Versteeg replaced a core player? My recollection was that Versteeg was a deadline deal improvement, not replacing someone. I thought the mismanagement led to trading Richards and Carter? Did I miss something or did you misread what I was writing about?
Do I REALLY have to spell out something to you that has been spelled out dozens of times before? You're either ignoring what has been said to you for years or being purposefully obtuse. I would rather get my crockpot going than waste time writing a post you won't pay any attention to or will completely misread and twist.

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11-10-2013, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Do I REALLY have to spell out something to you that has been spelled out dozens of times before? You're either ignoring what has been said to you for years or being purposefully obtuse. I would rather get my crockpot going than waste time writing a post you won't pay any attention to or will completely misread and twist.
I guess I do need it spelled out for me. I was talking about the Pronger and Versteeg trades as trades that had to be made to make a run for the Cup.

You said that "those" trades only HAD to be made because of Homer's mismanagement/trading of core players.

I was trying to see whether or not "those" trades was in reference to Pronger/Versteeg trades, or the Richards/Carter trades. I assume it was in reference to Pronger/Versteeg because I wasn't talking about Richards or Carter, but your reference to mismanagement and having to replace core players doesn't seem to apply to the Pronger and Versteeg deals. Which is why I was confused.

So either you are misreading something I wrote and were referring to Richards/Carter, or I am not understanding your argument about the Pronger and Versteeg trades being the result of mismanagement (rather than the cause of mismanagement, which I thought your point was about).

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