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Old
11-10-2013, 12:28 PM
  #26
stratedge
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I think Taylor Hall is over rated and I would trade him now to get maximum value. There I said it.

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Old
11-10-2013, 12:33 PM
  #27
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I think Taylor Hall is over rated and I would trade him now to get maximum value. There I said it.
Your insane. Best LW in the game when healthy and Ovie plays the right side.

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Old
11-10-2013, 01:06 PM
  #28
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Is there any aspect of the organization that isn't awful?

Ownership sucks
Management sucks
Coaching sucks
Players suck
Media sucks
Fans suck (in that they pay top dollar for anything)
Arena sucks

Where the hell would you even begin the change?
Build a new arena?

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Old
11-10-2013, 02:07 PM
  #29
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Your insane. Best LW in the game when healthy and Ovie plays the right side.
Maybe he could be one day if he actually develops some hockey sense. Most naturally gifted? Sure, but if I'm trying to win a game I would definitely take Zetterberg, Sedin, Lucic, Sharp over him. Maybe Kunitz and Ladd as well (play much better physically).

There are major holes to his game, particularly puck management. Rarely plays physical, only when he is pissed off. I find that alarming, that he has another level of intensity but we only see it every 4th or 5th game. I wouldn't hesitate to trade him given he can bring back the best return. If we could somehow pull off Hall + Eberle for Weber I wouldn't think twice.

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11-10-2013, 02:08 PM
  #30
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Build a new arena?
Yeah, but even that kinda sucks. From the sweetheart deal Katz is getting from taxpayers to the whole Seattle relocation threat.

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Old
11-10-2013, 02:12 PM
  #31
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Maybe he could be one day if he actually develops some hockey sense. Most naturally gifted? Sure, but if I'm trying to win a game I would definitely take Zetterberg, Sedin, Lucic, Sharp over him. Maybe Kunitz and Ladd as well (play much better physically).

There are major holes to his game, particularly puck management. Rarely plays physical, only when he is pissed off. I find that alarming, that he has another level of intensity but we only see it every 4th or 5th game. I wouldn't hesitate to trade him given he can bring back the best return. If we could somehow pull off Hall + Eberle for Weber I wouldn't think twice.




Only if your center is Crosby.

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Old
11-10-2013, 02:14 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by stratedge View Post
I think Taylor Hall is over rated and I would trade him now to get maximum value. There I said it.
Yeah not only is he the most dominant puck possession player on the team, but also plays with more grit than anyone in the top 6.

I'd say keep Hall at all costs, I wouldn't cry if anyone else on the team is moved, RNH/Eberle included.

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Old
11-10-2013, 07:05 PM
  #33
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Hey guys, outsider here but with a fascination on what's going on in Edmonton and the Oilers. Here's my take for whatever it's worth:

Katz is not the problem at all but for sure the solution lies with him. Guys like Katz absolutely understands bad management but he's given Lowe and company all the chances in the world because, well, he's a fan and he couldn't disrespect Oiler legends.

Katz's problem is that he probably doesn't have big hockey contacts or really knows who to hire to right the ship. My guess is that he meets with Bettman and asks if he can help put him in contact with some good hockey minds to help him do it right. Bettman himself might not know but he could assign some resources to help Katz. It would be a good move, it would be kept silent and Katz could get some good names to review. It might take a bit of time but he could refresh everything. It has to happen.

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11-10-2013, 07:18 PM
  #34
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We ****ed up our team culture by giving the kids long term deals so early. Most of you would disagree, but I think it just created a huge atmosphere of entitlement. I'll dwelve more into it after the game.

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Old
11-10-2013, 10:59 PM
  #35
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Tonight was another example, they came out and played ok, but didn't rally. Yak showed some fire near the end, but it was just a flash in the pan. No one really through much for hits, no one tried to create a spark for the team, no one consistently went to those dirty areas. Its frustrating because the few times they worked those areas, they scored

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Old
11-10-2013, 11:32 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the doctor View Post
Hey guys, outsider here but with a fascination on what's going on in Edmonton and the Oilers. Here's my take for whatever it's worth:

Katz is not the problem at all but for sure the solution lies with him. Guys like Katz absolutely understands bad management but he's given Lowe and company all the chances in the world because, well, he's a fan and he couldn't disrespect Oiler legends.

Katz's problem is that he probably doesn't have big hockey contacts or really knows who to hire to right the ship. My guess is that he meets with Bettman and asks if he can help put him in contact with some good hockey minds to help him do it right. Bettman himself might not know but he could assign some resources to help Katz. It would be a good move, it would be kept silent and Katz could get some good names to review. It might take a bit of time but he could refresh everything. It has to happen.
You're exactly right, nice assessment. There's too much pride in the Oilers org though, I can't see Katz asking Bettman for help. Bettman would do it though, the Oilers $ keeps crap organizations alive and Bettman needs us to succeed.

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Old
11-11-2013, 12:04 AM
  #37
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I think its time for Management to announce that what they have been doing isn't working and they are going to start a full rebuild.

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Old
11-11-2013, 12:13 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by yukoner88 View Post
Tonight was another example, they came out and played ok, but didn't rally. Yak showed some fire near the end, but it was just a flash in the pan. No one really through much for hits, no one tried to create a spark for the team, no one consistently went to those dirty areas. Its frustrating because the few times they worked those areas, they scored
Not true, we had double the Hawks hits but thats what happens when you lose the other areas of the game. The Hawks won the possesion battle and shot the puck more, they also have a much better team so it is what it is. The effort was there, it must be very deflating that they cannot get a win.

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Old
11-11-2013, 12:25 AM
  #39
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Maybe he could be one day if he actually develops some hockey sense. Most naturally gifted? Sure, but if I'm trying to win a game I would definitely take Zetterberg, Sedin, Lucic, Sharp over him. Maybe Kunitz and Ladd as well (play much better physically).

There are major holes to his game, particularly puck management. Rarely plays physical, only when he is pissed off. I find that alarming, that he has another level of intensity but we only see it every 4th or 5th game. I wouldn't hesitate to trade him given he can bring back the best return. If we could somehow pull off Hall + Eberle for Weber I wouldn't think twice.
You would take a 3rd liner like 20 goal guy like Lucic over a future star in Hall wow.

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Old
11-11-2013, 01:11 AM
  #40
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Yeah, but even that kinda sucks. From the sweetheart deal Katz is getting from taxpayers to the whole Seattle relocation threat.
Hence my sarcasm emoticon. I like the new arena and all, I just think it's a container that will continue to house the same old problems the OP asked about.

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Old
11-11-2013, 03:34 AM
  #41
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Just checking in, and I know you guys are pissed at management and its probably justified (Im not an Oilers fan so I wouldn't know and won't pretend to) but I will say that you have Scott Howson on board, and he cleaned up the toxic mess that Doug MacLean left him and turned it into a playoff team. Granted, 4 and out, but still. He also handled the Rick Nash and Jeff Carter situations with class and authority and got good returns for both that revolutionized and changed our culture within months of the team being a catastrophic laughing stock of the league. Now we're struggling, but the team's culture is making it known that it won't happen or be tolerated, and it was all started by the moves Howson made.

Now in order to change culture, you may need to swallow some pride and make some hard decisions that the fans may not enjoy, but if the culture really is the issue, it must be done.

I think he will help you guys turn it around. I know he's not GM, but he will have a hand in your turnaround. Best of luck guys.

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Old
11-11-2013, 05:46 AM
  #42
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As an outsider that saw his team (Coyotes) turn around after a decade of similar mismanagement:

1.) Fire everyone remotely associated with the losing culture, no matter how small the position, or how strong the ties to the glory days.

2.) Replace them with respected, established personnel. Spend the most $$$ here.

3.) Give the new management and coaching total control of the team. If a player is deemed unfit, they are traded/cut, no questions asked. If that means every piece of the 'core' has to go, so be it (I doubt it).

Trying to do any of this piecemeal or half-hearted will only make the situation worse. You can't just fire a coach. You can't just make a token trade. You can't just swap the GM out. It has to be everything all at once.

As fans, you need to voice your displeasure with your wallets and your attention.

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Old
11-11-2013, 06:08 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kulleroinen View Post
Yes. It is time to change the culture and get rid of the following players:

RNH
Eberle


GET IT DONE.
You want to know what would be funny? If we traded them for what seems to be a good return but we continued to be a bottom 5 team.

It would be like the 90's. Trading our good players away left right and center except it's not money behind the moves anymore.

Imagine if we got Lucic for Eberle and Lucic's offence totally dried up.
Imagine if we traded Hopkins for Jamie Benn and then Benn had some horrible injury that would change him forever.
Then imagine us trading Taylor Hall for Weber and Weber blowing his shoulder out.

Just imagine.

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Old
11-11-2013, 06:50 AM
  #44
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There is no way I trade Hall, Eberle, RNH or Yak.

After that, I don't care. Really, they need players that can help them win. Not players that expect that line to carry the whole team around. Guys like Gagner need to go and guys like Hemsky are more valuable than meets the eye.

Hemmer has played very well the last few games, block shots and has shown more umph than he has in all the years I've watched him.

The rest is somewhat garbage.

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Old
11-11-2013, 07:02 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJGass4 View Post
There is no way I trade Hall, Eberle, RNH or Yak.

After that, I don't care. Really, they need players that can help them win. Not players that expect that line to carry the whole team around. Guys like Gagner need to go and guys like Hemsky are more valuable than meets the eye.

Hemmer has played very well the last few games, block shots and has shown more umph than he has in all the years I've watched him.

The rest is somewhat garbage.
So you're not willing to trade any players of significant value? What do you expect to get in return other than borderline NHL players?

2 of those four guys should be traded so that we can get a 1st pairing d-man and a top six power forward.

If Edmonton tries to constantly build through the draft their kids will just learn to be losers and the team will NEVER be complete. It'll always be 2-4 pieces away from looking like a playoff team.

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Old
11-11-2013, 07:28 AM
  #46
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1980's-tough guys Dave Semenko, Dave Brown, Kevin McCelland and a few others
-gritty players Tikkenan, Lowe, MacT, Buchburger, Fogolin, huddy, Linesman...other guys too
Everyone knows the skill players and great goaltending. I don't know how the top brass have lost the blueprint for a successful team.

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Old
11-11-2013, 08:23 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by AJGass4 View Post
There is no way I trade Hall, Eberle, RNH or Yak.
Therein lies the problem. You don't get it because these are fan favorites and the team is petrified to make the changes where it is needed. What you are not seeing is that you actually have the cast of the Wizard of Oz there. You have scarecrow, the tin man, the lion, and Dorothy.

Hall is a very talented player, but this guy is in need of a brain in the worst way. His hockey IQ is the lowest of any first overall pick I've seen. He makes some of the dumbest plays trying to distribute pucks and he is lost in the defensive zone. He's best suited to be a finisher and that is pretty well it. He'll never get much better than he is because he just doesn't have the head for the game. Yes, he's got great hands and wheels, but he's dumb and plays with his head down so much it is only a matter of time before someone knocks the straw right out of his head. Hall is a finisher on a team that has the players that can do everything else.

Eberle is the tin man of this cast, and desperately needs a heart. He really is a very talented player, but there is just no jam in that kid. Unless he's given all the room in the world he is useless. He won't take on the bigger players with an consistency and won't make the sacrifices needed to win. He's another talented player, but without heart what use is talent?

RNH is a great young player, but he's frail and injury prone. That is playing in the back of his mind and it shows. He isn't going to the dirty spots and isn't doing the things you need your first line center to do. He doesn't do this because he's afraid. Afraid to get hurt, or afraid of success, or afraid to show up his own team. The guy needs to find the courage to become the player he was projected to be. Without that courage he's going to become a shadow of what he can be. Without that courage he won't stand up and take control of the room and demand players get together and play a team game.

Finally we have Dorothy. The little prima donna in a foreign land who doesn't want to adapt but just wants to (metaphorically) go home where things are done to his liking. Yakupov doesn't want to play the 200 foot game. That isn't how he learned to play the game and not how he wants to play the game. He wants so badly to go home where things are done his way and not the way of this strange land he finds himself.

Now the big difference between the story of the Wizard of Oz and this cast of characters is that in the story Dorothy and her new friends fought for each other. They worked together toward a goal. That's not the way the current cast is. There are divisions in the cast and it shows. Hall and Eberle appear to be the ring leaders of the club. RNH is in limbo, unsure of whether to join Hall and Eberle or be a team guy. Yakupov is out on his own. This obviously transcends their friendships and finds its way into the dressing room. Ference has made mention of it, and it is obviously at the core of your problems.

In Calgary the fans were subjected to years of complacency and under performance of the team, and not many people understood why. Even though coaches said "the answers were in the room" they never grasped that also meant the problems were there too. Some of us recognized the country club atmosphere was a result of certain players. Those certain players caused a rift in the dressing room and it prevented the team from playing together and for each other. Some of us thought the issue was Iginla, and he needed to be moved for the atmosphere to change, but there were too many fans who took the attitude of AJGlass4 and stood behind the player rather than the team. Since Iginla has been traded the team has changed, almost over night, into team worth watching, win or lose. They care about the game, they care about each other, and they care about giving an effort.

Nothing is going to change in Edmonton until you break up the current cast. Hall and Eberle need to go. Until they are both purged you have no hope of the room every straightening itself out. Yakupov will never be a team player, so I would also consider trying to find another sucker, er team, to take him as soon as possible. Keep Nuge as your asset up front, move the others and try and build from the backend out. Find that next great goaltender and surround him with some quality defensemen. You have the assets to do it, you just need to find the intestinal fortitude to do it. Draft character more often than you draft talent. You may laugh at the Flames draft picks, because they don't follow Bob McKenzie's draft list, but they changed their ideas about players and now draft guys that they know have the character to be professionals, which gives them the best chance to get to and stick in the NHL.

The final piece to this Wizard of Oz scenario is that man behind the curtain. The great and powerful Oz needs to be exposed. Someone needs to pull the curtain back on Kevin Lowe and expose him, and his six rings, for the fraud he is. He has driven your team into the ground and has muddied the reputation of a once great team. Players don't want to go to Edmonton because it is cold or a bad city. They don't want to go there because they can't trust management. Lowe has done so many things that has hurt the club that the only way things will change is if he is removed from power. Hopefully the new guy brought in will see problems outlined and make the appropriate changes, otherwise your destined to be following that yellow brick road forever, and never finding Oz.

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Old
11-11-2013, 09:12 AM
  #48
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Outsider's view, and no spoon full of sugar to go with it.



Therein lies the problem. You don't get it because these are fan favorites and the team is petrified to make the changes where it is needed. What you are not seeing is that you actually have the cast of the Wizard of Oz there. You have scarecrow, the tin man, the lion, and Dorothy.

Hall is a very talented player, but this guy is in need of a brain in the worst way. His hockey IQ is the lowest of any first overall pick I've seen. He makes some of the dumbest plays trying to distribute pucks and he is lost in the defensive zone. He's best suited to be a finisher and that is pretty well it. He'll never get much better than he is because he just doesn't have the head for the game. Yes, he's got great hands and wheels, but he's dumb and plays with his head down so much it is only a matter of time before someone knocks the straw right out of his head. Hall is a finisher on a team that has the players that can do everything else.

Eberle is the tin man of this cast, and desperately needs a heart. He really is a very talented player, but there is just no jam in that kid. Unless he's given all the room in the world he is useless. He won't take on the bigger players with an consistency and won't make the sacrifices needed to win. He's another talented player, but without heart what use is talent?

RNH is a great young player, but he's frail and injury prone. That is playing in the back of his mind and it shows. He isn't going to the dirty spots and isn't doing the things you need your first line center to do. He doesn't do this because he's afraid. Afraid to get hurt, or afraid of success, or afraid to show up his own team. The guy needs to find the courage to become the player he was projected to be. Without that courage he's going to become a shadow of what he can be. Without that courage he won't stand up and take control of the room and demand players get together and play a team game.

Finally we have Dorothy. The little prima donna in a foreign land who doesn't want to adapt but just wants to (metaphorically) go home where things are done to his liking. Yakupov doesn't want to play the 200 foot game. That isn't how he learned to play the game and not how he wants to play the game. He wants so badly to go home where things are done his way and not the way of this strange land he finds himself.

Now the big difference between the story of the Wizard of Oz and this cast of characters is that in the story Dorothy and her new friends fought for each other. They worked together toward a goal. That's not the way the current cast is. There are divisions in the cast and it shows. Hall and Eberle appear to be the ring leaders of the club. RNH is in limbo, unsure of whether to join Hall and Eberle or be a team guy. Yakupov is out on his own. This obviously transcends their friendships and finds its way into the dressing room. Ference has made mention of it, and it is obviously at the core of your problems.

In Calgary the fans were subjected to years of complacency and under performance of the team, and not many people understood why. Even though coaches said "the answers were in the room" they never grasped that also meant the problems were there too. Some of us recognized the country club atmosphere was a result of certain players. Those certain players caused a rift in the dressing room and it prevented the team from playing together and for each other. Some of us thought the issue was Iginla, and he needed to be moved for the atmosphere to change, but there were too many fans who took the attitude of AJGlass4 and stood behind the player rather than the team. Since Iginla has been traded the team has changed, almost over night, into team worth watching, win or lose. They care about the game, they care about each other, and they care about giving an effort.

Nothing is going to change in Edmonton until you break up the current cast. Hall and Eberle need to go. Until they are both purged you have no hope of the room every straightening itself out. Yakupov will never be a team player, so I would also consider trying to find another sucker, er team, to take him as soon as possible. Keep Nuge as your asset up front, move the others and try and build from the backend out. Find that next great goaltender and surround him with some quality defensemen. You have the assets to do it, you just need to find the intestinal fortitude to do it. Draft character more often than you draft talent. You may laugh at the Flames draft picks, because they don't follow Bob McKenzie's draft list, but they changed their ideas about players and now draft guys that they know have the character to be professionals, which gives them the best chance to get to and stick in the NHL.

The final piece to this Wizard of Oz scenario is that man behind the curtain. The great and powerful Oz needs to be exposed. Someone needs to pull the curtain back on Kevin Lowe and expose him, and his six rings, for the fraud he is. He has driven your team into the ground and has muddied the reputation of a once great team. Players don't want to go to Edmonton because it is cold or a bad city. They don't want to go there because they can't trust management. Lowe has done so many things that has hurt the club that the only way things will change is if he is removed from power. Hopefully the new guy brought in will see problems outlined and make the appropriate changes, otherwise your destined to be following that yellow brick road forever, and never finding Oz.
Rabble rabble...Lowe/MacT/Eakins and cast will all be fired before Hall or RNH get traded. Unless they ask to be traded which wouldn't suprise me. Furthermore, it is always easier to fire the coach than it is to change all the players (never mind that you're talking about 1st overall picks like 3 years into their careers...). The coach has lost the room and has no credibility to get it back.

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Old
11-11-2013, 09:25 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
As an outsider that saw his team (Coyotes) turn around after a decade of similar mismanagement:

1.) Fire everyone remotely associated with the losing culture, no matter how small the position, or how strong the ties to the glory days.

2.) Replace them with respected, established personnel. Spend the most $$$ here.

3.) Give the new management and coaching total control of the team. If a player is deemed unfit, they are traded/cut, no questions asked. If that means every piece of the 'core' has to go, so be it (I doubt it).

Trying to do any of this piecemeal or half-hearted will only make the situation worse. You can't just fire a coach. You can't just make a token trade. You can't just swap the GM out. It has to be everything all at once.

As fans, you need to voice your displeasure with your wallets and your attention.

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11-11-2013, 09:46 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Sloth Slothersons View Post




Only if your center is Crosby.
Yes, it was Crosby that got Kunitz's name on a cup in Anaheim

There's no arguing Hall is a far more talented player, also a far more valuable player in terms of trade value. What I said is if I needed to win a game TODAY, I would take the guys I listed over Hall, and possibly Ladd and Kunitz. I'm not saying I'd trade them straight up for each other, but I am saying this idea that "Hall is the best LW in the game" is complete *********. I said he could be if he developed better hockey sense and a more prominent physical game.

I also suggest you watch a bit more of Kunitz if you think it's all Crosby. The guy is one of the best retrieval guys on dump ins - never gives up an opportunity to hit and very good in board battles. He was a 1st liner on that Anaheim cup winning team for a reason.

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