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Old
11-10-2013, 02:43 PM
  #26
MsWoof
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
You seem very narrow-minded.

Just because Simmer and Schenn are on a bad team, doesn't make their characters less great than those on a great team.

It's funny. Most flyers fans wouldn't trade back Simmer, Schenn and a 2nd for Richards and I"m sure most kings would agree. That to me sounds like a win/win situation.
Ever since the trades happened, a lot of Flyer fans went into "defend Holmgren at all cost" mode and continue to do it. Their defence of the Richards/Carter trades are a product of that. Ironically, a lot of others want Simmonds to be traded or healthy scratched. Schenn hasn't shown much in the way of hockey smarts, just like his brother, so the trade feels pretty uneven. I doubt Simmonds stays on the team for the duration of his contract.

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11-10-2013, 02:58 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Ever since the trades happened, a lot of Flyer fans went into "defend Holmgren at all cost" mode and continue to do it. Their defence of the Richards/Carter trades are a product of that. Ironically, a lot of others want Simmonds to be traded or healthy scratched. Schenn hasn't shown much in the way of hockey smarts, just like his brother, so the trade feels pretty uneven. I doubt Simmonds stays on the team for the duration of his contract.
Well, of course, some fans want Simmonds traded, he's underachieving compare to his first 2 seasons in philly. It's always about "what have you done for me lately" in philly, is it not?

Your view on the deal being uneven has more to do with the success of one franchise and the demise of another more than the individual players that were involved in the trade. If we were to get back in return Simmonds and Schenn, we'd still be a great franchise, whereas if philly had MR back, they'd continue to struggle because of continuous mismanagement on their part.

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11-10-2013, 03:00 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
You seem very narrow-minded.

Just because Simmer and Schenn are on a bad team, doesn't make their characters less great than those on a great team.

It's funny. Most flyers fans wouldn't trade back Simmer, Schenn and a 2nd for Richards and I"m sure most kings would agree. That to me sounds like a win/win situation.
Most Flyer fans are trying to run Simmer out of town and are extremely disappointed with Schenn's development so far. Flyer fans wouldn't reverse that trade now because that team is much more than a Richards away from competing, they would be better off trading a few of their many assets they have to address some of their many needs

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11-10-2013, 03:02 PM
  #29
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It's only a matter of time until Schenn and Simmonds are traded.. and it's going to be hilarious when it does happen.

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11-10-2013, 04:12 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
You seem very narrow-minded.

Just because Simmer and Schenn are on a bad team, doesn't make their characters less great than those on a great team.

It's funny. Most flyers fans wouldn't trade back Simmer, Schenn and a 2nd for Richards and I"m sure most kings would agree. That to me sounds like a win/win situation.
I'm not going to call their character into question, but they haven't replaced what Richards brought to the Flyers. They shouldn't be expected to at this point in their careers either, but from that standpoint they are part of the reason why the team is bad.

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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Well, of course, some fans want Simmonds traded, he's underachieving compare to his first 2 seasons in philly. It's always about "what have you done for me lately" in philly, is it not?

Your view on the deal being uneven has more to do with the success of one franchise and the demise of another more than the individual players that were involved in the trade. If we were to get back in return Simmonds and Schenn, we'd still be a great franchise, whereas if philly had MR back, they'd continue to struggle because of continuous mismanagement on their part.
It was only 3 years ago that the Flyers were pretty much the envy of the league; coming off a finals appearance and tearing though teams in the following regular season. Trading Mike Richards is the biggest piece of evidence for mismanagement that there is. Avoiding that error wouldn't have made all the problems in the front office go away, but it would have made the team on the ice better.

As for Flyers fans still supporting the trade, I'm not sure if I'm in the minority (being against it) or not. I'm hearing a lot more regret about it lately than I did a couple years ago.

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11-10-2013, 04:14 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shellz View Post
It's only a matter of time until Schenn and Simmonds are traded.. and it's going to be hilarious when it does happen.
It depends on how soon Hextall takes over.

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11-10-2013, 04:23 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Well, of course, some fans want Simmonds traded, he's underachieving compare to his first 2 seasons in philly. It's always about "what have you done for me lately" in philly, is it not?

Your view on the deal being uneven has more to do with the success of one franchise and the demise of another more than the individual players that were involved in the trade. If we were to get back in return Simmonds and Schenn, we'd still be a great franchise, whereas if philly had MR back, they'd continue to struggle because of continuous mismanagement on their part.
Well, the Flyers would not be in this position if they hadn't done those trades to begin with. If they'd kept Richards and Carter they would still be competitors right now not fighting for last place. Those two make that much of a difference. Even just having Richards would probably puts them back in competition. There is plenty of talent on that team that is simply not succeeding. There is no one to pick them up and put the team on their back, while they follow. And meanwhile, if Richards had never showed up, that probably means no Carter and no Stanley Cup for the Kings.

That's why it's hard to say that its a win/win. Richards is a difference maker while Schenn and Simmonds are not up to this point. They might become that, but at this point all they have is potential, and potential is not getting a team anywhere. And now Schenn and Simmonds are on top of the trade rumors so that potential may never come to fruition for the Flyers.

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11-10-2013, 04:30 PM
  #33
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Trading Mike Richards and Jeff Carter fundamentally changed the composition of the Flyers. It's a domino affect. I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand about that. A trade like that is almost never about 1 for 1. So saying that if you inserted Mike Richards back into their lineup they would still suck doesn't mean anything.

All of the chess pieces were moved across the board in Philly because of those trades. It changed the direction of the franchise. It's 100% fact they're worse off now. That's not a narrow-minded point of view. Maybe it's you who needs to open yourself up to the possibility that the Flyers made a mistake. Prior to the trades, the Flyers were better than the Kings every season. That hasn't been true, since. Make of that what you will.

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11-10-2013, 04:44 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by cyclones22 View Post
Trading Mike Richards and Jeff Carter fundamentally changed the composition of the Flyers. It's a domino affect. I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand about that. A trade like that is almost never about 1 for 1. So saying that if you inserted Mike Richards back into their lineup they would still suck doesn't mean anything.

All of the chess pieces were moved across the board in Philly because of those trades. It changed the direction of the franchise. It's 100% fact they're worse off now. That's not a narrow-minded point of view. Maybe it's you who needs to open yourself up to the possibility that the Flyers made a mistake. Prior to the trades, the Flyers were better than the Kings every season. That hasn't been true, since. Make of that what you will.
That's true:

Trading Richards and Carter led to aquiring Bryzgalov which led to the trading of Bobrovsky and JVR which led to the buyout of Bryzgalov when the team sucked which led to where they are now, sucking even more. If they hadn't done all those trades and stood pat, they would likely be Stanley Cup competitors right now instead of in the basement.

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Old
11-11-2013, 08:34 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
That's true:

Trading Richards and Carter led to aquiring Bryzgalov which led to the trading of Bobrovsky and JVR which led to the buyout of Bryzgalov when the team sucked which led to where they are now, sucking even more. If they hadn't done all those trades and stood pat, they would likely be Stanley Cup competitors right now instead of in the basement.
It's also a case of having a well structured team. Richards' arrival in LA allowed Stoll to play where he should on the 3rd line, and forced opposing teams to choose which of the first two lines they want their best defensemen to face (that 1A/1B thing Lombardi talked about).

When Richards are Carter were traded, it not only left a huge hole defensively and resulted in more kneejerk moves to try to fill holes, it left Giroux and JVR as a single line and easier to defend. Now that the Flyers have also traded JVR, it's Giroux and... ?

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11-11-2013, 08:51 AM
  #36
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Of course Simmonds has been a disappointment, he was the benefactor of Giroux's amazing season a couple years back (as was Scott Hartnell) and it was obviously going to be difficult for him to repeat those numbers. Not to slight Simmonds and his abilities, but is he really a top line winger on a contender? I would say no. I thought Simmonds was perfect in his role as a checking line winger who can contribute when he was paired with Handzus, those guys were beasts along the boards.

If you watched Simmonds closely when his numbers blew up, you'd notice how most of his goals were pretty much cleaning up in front of the net, burying in rebounds, being fed passes from Giroux. Now that he's being paid like a top line player, people are naturally going to expect more from him, hence putting the player in a position not to succeed.

The knock and concern with Brayden Schenn going back to juniors was his reckless play which led to numerous shoulder injuries. Towards the end of every season it seemed like Schenn would be nursing some upper body ailment. When he was considered one of the best prospects in hockey, the hope was that he could pan out to be another Mike Richards. Thankfully the Kings didn't have to wait and find out if Schenn would meet those projections.

I thought he looked great in his first full season, in particular during the playoffs, and he had a respectable season during the lockout year and also produced in the AHL, but he's probably starting to feel the pressure now of being the guy who is supposed to replace Mike Richards.

Either way, I'm thankful that the Flyers have no patience and did Lombardi a huge favor in trading a unique player like Mike Richards to the Kings. He was one of those players who you'd consider a "missing piece" for a team looking to add that extra oomph for a deep playoff run. The guy is a warrior and as I've said numerous times, he's a modern day Doug Gilmour. He's a player every coach would love to have because he'll do anything to help his team win. I can't think of any other center in Kings history who played the game like Mike Richards does: a player who will go through a wall for his teammates.

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11-11-2013, 09:15 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
That's true:

Trading Richards and Carter led to aquiring Bryzgalov which led to the trading of Bobrovsky and JVR which led to the buyout of Bryzgalov when the team sucked which led to where they are now, sucking even more. If they hadn't done all those trades and stood pat, they would likely be Stanley Cup competitors right now instead of in the basement.
Well the Flyers wanted(needed?) to get a goalie, and had to clear cap space, which led to the Carter deal. If you're trading Carter after signing him and his buddy Richards to basically lifetime contracts, you're probably not going to have a happy Richards(although he'd still bleed for whatever team he played for). Trade Carter, trade Richards somewhere else, and you don't have to deal with it.

At the time of those trades, the Flyers still had Pronger. He was a game changing player, even at an older age.

Pronger gets the career ending injury. They have that crazy series against Pittsburgh, and nothing has really gone their way since. Bryzgalov blows up. Pronger can't be replaced, but they trade van Riemsdyk for Schenn, then try and get Weber, but don't.

The Flyers are a franchise that lives by an owner wanting to win, and they die by an owner wanting to win. They can't seem to stop and regroup. They just keep trying things in the moment. It was easier to do that when there was no cap. No cap, they bring in a goalie, don't trade Carter, don't trade Richards, probably get Weber, with or without Pronger, etc, etc.

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11-11-2013, 09:58 AM
  #38
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At this point, I could care less what the Flyers fans think. The trade is what it is, and I am sure as **** glad it happened. Especially in hind-sight I'd make that trade everyday of the week and twice on Sunday! If they're happy with the trade, then good on them.

In economics exchanges are never equal, each party values what they are receiving more than what they are giving up, otherwise no trades would ever take place.

Can there be winners and losers in exchanges? Of course, but it's up to each receiving party over time to evaluate the exchange over time. So, are we happy with the trade? I sure as hell am! Are they happy with the trade? I couldn't give a ****.


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11-11-2013, 10:40 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Well the Flyers wanted(needed?) to get a goalie, and had to clear cap space, which led to the Carter deal. If you're trading Carter after signing him and his buddy Richards to basically lifetime contracts, you're probably not going to have a happy Richards(although he'd still bleed for whatever team he played for). Trade Carter, trade Richards somewhere else, and you don't have to deal with it.

At the time of those trades, the Flyers still had Pronger. He was a game changing player, even at an older age.

Pronger gets the career ending injury. They have that crazy series against Pittsburgh, and nothing has really gone their way since. Bryzgalov blows up. Pronger can't be replaced, but they trade van Riemsdyk for Schenn, then try and get Weber, but don't.

The Flyers are a franchise that lives by an owner wanting to win, and they die by an owner wanting to win. They can't seem to stop and regroup. They just keep trying things in the moment. It was easier to do that when there was no cap. No cap, they bring in a goalie, don't trade Carter, don't trade Richards, probably get Weber, with or without Pronger, etc, etc.
Problem is there was no need for a goalie. Bobrovsky was great. He just struggled in the playoffs in his rookie season. But Snider was embarassed by the Bruins (he still lives in the 1970s and has a stepchild mentality towards the original six) so he ousted his franchise players and overpaid for the best goalie on the market (who wasn't that good).

He manages his team like someone manages fantasy hockey. He has no concept of team chemistry or any intangibles other than beating people up. He thought if he plugged in some young guys who could score that would replace richie and carts. He thought he needed a goalie so he grabs the first one he can get. He needs younger defensemen? Trade JVR cause he had a subpar season. This is not a video game. He has a win now and a win later team at the same time.

Now he has the nerve to be complete clueless about why it's not working. I seriously cannot stand that old man and how he throws his players under the bus. He only cares about the broad street bullies (they are about to have another celebration party for them after unveiling another statue for them last year). Where's the stuff for Eric Lindros and John LeClair who owned the 90s? How about how you pissed all over Gagne who spent over ten years bleeding for that organization? They give his number away to some scrub and pretend he never existed. If you agree with Snider's philosophy and were a tough guy on the ice, you get a lifetime job. If not, well you can pound sand, the Flyers do not associate with your kind.

Seriously, **** that guy. Just thinking about his treatment of his players and how he lets the media harass them to death makes my blood boil.

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Old
11-11-2013, 11:22 AM
  #40
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ive loved Richards since his first game in a Kings sweater, he's played like a captain and elevated his game when the team has needed him most. 'intangibles' is probably the most over-used/cliche term in hockey but when i think of Richards thats the first thing that comes to mind. there are very few players like him

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11-11-2013, 11:27 AM
  #41
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I was weary of the Richards deal at first a bit because of his contract but I had zero real problem with the trade value wise. I NEVER liked Schenn. I'm sure some of you remember me not being sold on him at all. I was more sad to lose Simmonds than Schenn. That draft now makes me feel weird feelings. There were only two guys I thought would be good picks - Duchene or Kane. Both are pretty damn good players while Schenn has struggled.

On the Flyers perspective, I would have been PISSED as I think a lot of fans were. And whoever said it fundamentally changed the team was right. You took two guys who could score AND play defense and traded them for guys who can only do the former. But it also doesn't help that the team has an awful owner and an idiot GM. Best case scenario for Flyers fans is the team continues to suck and Hextall gets his chance to take over the team. But even then, you have Snider who will probably still **** with what Ron wants to do.

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11-11-2013, 11:41 AM
  #42
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Once the trade was anounced we became a cup favorite. What other player can be traded besides Sid can you say that about. He was born a winner. We are lucky to have Richards and Kopitar center our top 2 lines.

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11-11-2013, 12:54 PM
  #43
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One of my favorite Mike Richards moments from his first season with the Kings was his return to Philly:



And setting up the game-winner in OT:

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11-12-2013, 05:27 AM
  #44
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As a Flyers fan, i know who won that trade. It wasn't us. Hated the trade from day 1, and still do. Love that my favorite player got his cup dough.

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11-12-2013, 07:26 AM
  #45
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I love the way Richards has been playing lately, the best I've seen from him as a King for sure. More like the player I expected when the Kings traded for him.

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11-12-2013, 11:52 AM
  #46
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One of my all time favorite Richards moments. I was very skeptical going into the playoffs against a President Trophy Canucks team. I sure as hell thought they were going to make another strong cup run. However, after seeing the Kings play and seeing this Mike Richards hit, I instantly knew that the Kings had something special going on. I remember saying to myself "This isn't the same playoff team as years before, this is a new team going against the Nucks".

I can't get the link to work but its Richards hit on Burrows.


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11-12-2013, 12:22 PM
  #47
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I don't think there's a loser in that trade. Yes, the kings gave up a whole lot of assets, and value wise, the flyers probably got the better of the trade. But without Richards, we probably don't win the cup.

It's a win/win trade imo. The main difference is that kings organization has created a team that will be a cup contender for years to come, whereas flyers organization has floundered in that department.

So, yeah, there are no losers in the Richards trade.
Agree there are no losers in the trade but do you really VALUE Simmonds and schenn over MR ???

Sorry just read some more of thread wrote that post after only read yours


Last edited by yankeeking: 11-12-2013 at 12:27 PM. Reason: continued reading posts
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11-12-2013, 12:24 PM
  #48
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One of my all time favorite Richards moments. I was very skeptical going into the playoffs against a President Trophy Canucks team. I sure as hell thought they were going to make another strong cup run. However, after seeing the Kings play and seeing this Mike Richards hit, I instantly knew that the Kings had something special going on. I remember saying to myself "This isn't the same playoff team as years before, this is a new team going against the Nucks".

I can't get the link to work but its Richards hit on Burrows.


Here you go. And my favorite part of this play isn't actually the hit, but afterwards when Burrows tries to shove Richie and he just shoves Burrows to the ice again.

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11-12-2013, 12:24 PM
  #49
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When he "jostles" with Richards like a fish out of water?

Remember the Canucks said that it was a classless play on Richards part? And he shouldn't be doing that at that point in the game? Bunch of *******.

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11-12-2013, 12:32 PM
  #50
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When he "jostles" with Richards like a fish out of water?

Remember the Canucks said that it was a classless play on Richards part? And he shouldn't be doing that at that point in the game? Bunch of *******.
Yep

They should stick to arson

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