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Snider on struggling Flyers: 'Never seen anything like this'

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11-10-2013, 06:33 AM
  #76
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11-10-2013, 07:31 AM
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Another table that goes back to 1967...


Hey, the Red Sox have won the 4th most World Series'. They must have had no problems whatsoever with ownership and management over the past 110 years.

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11-10-2013, 09:33 AM
  #78
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Another table that goes back to 1967...


Hey, the Red Sox have won the 4th most World Series'. They must have had no problems whatsoever with ownership and management over the past 110 years.
What was the drastic change in ownership and management that preceded their 2004 World Series? I don't remember one. I remember Curt Schilling, that's about it, though.

For how long have the Flyers needed a fresh perspective? Since 2012? 2005? Surely not longer than that, if they need one at all..

This team is still in the mix thanks to the weak division (so far) this year, and they have the talent to salvage the season. Would Snider and Holmgren be exonerated, in your eyes, if they won a round or two in the playoffs?

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11-10-2013, 11:32 AM
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and 40 years later his team is the laughing stock of the league with no end is sight because he still thinks it's the 1970s

Nobody is taking anything away from what Snider did for this team. But the way he runs this team now, has killed us. We're a joke because he's still stuck in the 70s. His quote a few years back about how the Flyers "don't know how to rebuild" should tell you everything you need to know about Mr. Snider. Just look at all the past Cup winners since the 04-05 lockout. Aside from one winner (DET), what did the others do? They re-built through the draft and developed all of their players properly.

I respect Snider for everything he's done, but it's time to move on, and until he moves on, this team's grave will just keep getting deeper and deeper
The Flyers are not the laughing stock of the league.

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11-10-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
What was the drastic change in ownership and management that preceded their 2004 World Series? I don't remember one. I remember Curt Schilling, that's about it, though.

For how long have the Flyers needed a fresh perspective? Since 2012? 2005? Surely not longer than that, if they need one at all..

This team is still in the mix thanks to the weak division (so far) this year, and they have the talent to salvage the season. Would Snider and Holmgren be exonerated, in your eyes, if they won a round or two in the playoffs?
I've said for a number of years that Holmgren has not demonstrated that he is capable of being an NHL General Manager. The team has gotten worse during almost every off-season, and he has often either made mistakes in personnel, or made mistakes in simply applying the collective bargaining agreement. Winning a round in the playoffs is entirely too small of a sample size to exonerate anybody.

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11-10-2013, 03:09 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
It was his fault with signing Bryz in the first place that's the least he could do.
People make mistakes, but its important that someone does everything they can to correct whatever mistake they made. A bad owner would not be able to part with that amount of money with no return, and refuse to admit to making a mistake. Snider steps up and takes accountability like a man (losing millions), he doesn't give lip service like a politician.

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11-10-2013, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
People make mistakes, but its important that someone does everything they can to correct whatever mistake they made. A bad owner would not be able to part with that amount of money with no return, and refuse to admit to making a mistake. Snider steps up and takes accountability like a man (losing millions), he doesn't give lip service like a politician.
Exactly. All Snider wants to do is win, and he does everything he can to make that a possibility. That is pretty much the best you can hope for in an owner of a sports franchise. One who wants to win at all costs. Ok, he may have bungled the Bryz situation, but over the past 50 years or so, that's about all we can point to in terms of Ed bungling things. And, when you get down to it, the general consensus was that the idea to get Bryz was fine, it was just the length and money on the contract that was the problem.

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11-10-2013, 05:32 PM
  #83
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Money and length being problems made the idea of getting Bryz less attractive than the alternative of developing Bob. Having to blow up the team partly to afford that contract makes it even less attractive.

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11-10-2013, 05:51 PM
  #84
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Money and length being problems made the idea of getting Bryz less attractive than the alternative of developing Bob. Having to blow up the team partly to afford that contract makes it even less attractive.

Trading Richards and Carter, IMO, didn't have anything to do with affording Bryz. The Flyers could have madd much more minor trades to get Bryz in, it was more about breaking up the good-time-party-boy crew (I know, I know... Get the HFB attorneys on me for slander/libel).

I know people here refuse to believe this, but Snider and Holmgren have way more information available to make decisions on players than you. It is an entirely shocking reality... Have you ever stopped to think that when they made the decision on Bryz that they pretty much knew exactly what was going to happen with the new CBA? Specifically the buyouts. I'm sure Snider knew, to a point, what was going to happen and knew that if Bryz didn't work out it was a problem he could just throw money at to make it go away. The same holds true for Holmrgen not knowing, or just not caring, about the 35+ rule when signing Pronger. These guys don't sign contracts without exit strategies, especially for an issue as likely as injury.

"The young man knows the rules (HF Snider haters), but the old man (Snider) knows the exceptions." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

I did hate getting rid of Bobs, but could you imagine this team with Bobs but without Couts/Voracek?


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11-10-2013, 05:58 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
People make mistakes, but its important that someone does everything they can to correct whatever mistake they made. A bad owner would not be able to part with that amount of money with no return, and refuse to admit to making a mistake. Snider steps up and takes accountability like a man (losing millions), he doesn't give lip service like a politician.
He really didn't do that either, he started to weasel out when it came apparent Bryzgalov was going to get the axe. He started to deflect blame & putting it on Homer while contradicting himself from what he said during the initial signing.

When times are tough he just wants people to know he's just the owner & listens to those around him but when times are good he likes to let everyone know he had a hand in it.

The guy is a hypocrite, I can't wait until Luukko takes over. A person who will give their money without their two cents.

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11-10-2013, 06:01 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
He really didn't do that either, he started to weasel out when it came apparent Bryzgalov was going to get the axe. He started to deflect blame & putting it on Homer while contradicting himself from what he said during the initial signing.

When times are tough he just wants people to know he's just the owner & listens to those around him but when times are good he likes to let everyone know he had a hand in it.

The guy is a hypocrite, I can't wait until Luukko takes over. A person who will give their money without their two cents.
1. I have no idea what you're talking about.
2. Anyone putting hundreds of millions on the line has the right to voice their opinion on anything regarding their investment.

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11-10-2013, 06:20 PM
  #87
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No, Snider did that. He deflected blame away from himself publicly.

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11-10-2013, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Trading Richards and Carter, IMO, didn't have anything to do with affording Bryz. The Flyers could have madd much more minor trades to get Bryz in, it was more about breaking up the good-time-party-boy crew (I know, I know... Get the HFB attorneys on me for slander/libel).

I know people here refuse to believe this, but Snider and Holmgren have way more information available to make decisions on players than you. It is an entirely shocking reality... Have you ever stopped to think that when they made the decision on Bryz that they pretty much knew exactly what was going to happen with the new CBA? Specifically the buyouts. I'm sure Snider knew, to a point, what was going to happen and knew that if Bryz didn't work out it was a problem he could just throw money at to make it go away. The same holds true for Holmrgen not knowing, or just not caring, about the 35+ rule when signing Pronger. These guys don't sign contracts without exit strategies, especially for an issue as likely as injury.

"The young man knows the rules (HF Snider haters), but the old man (Snider) knows the exceptions." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

I did hate getting rid of Bobs, but could you imagine this team with Bobs but without Couts/Voracek?
Without Coot's Voracek we would have a 35 goal scorer who's also good at defense. With Richards we would have an elite two way guy. We would be fine.

But in order to have them and also not have large holes elsewhere, the organization would have needed to build their team and handle their assets a lot more wisely than they did in the years leading up to the trade.

You act like it's unbelievable for posters here to know what they're talking about just because we aren't on the inside. If it's so unbelievable, how come so much of what has gone wrong in the last few years was predicted well in advance?

It was apparent long ago that Homer's asset and cap management was unsustainable. It was. That's only one instance where the people "in the know" were wrong and us among the unwashed masses were right.

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11-10-2013, 06:48 PM
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No, Snider did that. He deflected blame away from himself publicly.
Any help on where Snider deflected blame for Bryz?

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Without Coot's Voracek we would have a 35 goal scorer who's also good at defense. With Richards we would have an elite two way guy. We would be fine.

But in order to have them and also not have large holes elsewhere, the organization would have needed to build their team and handle their assets a lot more wisely than they did in the years leading up to the trade.

You act like it's unbelievable for posters here to know what they're talking about just because we aren't on the inside. If it's so unbelievable, how come so much of what has gone wrong in the last few years was predicted well in advance?

It was apparent long ago that Homer's asset and cap management was unsustainable. It was. That's only one instance where the people "in the know" were wrong and us among the unwashed masses were right.
And you act as if the owner and GM of an NHL team are stupid people. Which seems more likely:

A) A group of know-it-alls on the internet jump to a bunch of conclusions and know more than the 40 year professionals.
B) The owner and GM of an NHL club worth hundreds of millions of dollars are idiots.

I'm going with A.

As far as the Richards and Carter trades, why do you refuse to believe that the players had anything to do with them being moved? You are also still making the Richards/Carter trades the vehicle to bring Bryz here, which is speculation. The Flyers could have moved minor pieces to get Bryz here, they didn't ship out their top two players because they wanted Bryz.

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11-10-2013, 06:51 PM
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Any help on where Snider deflected blame for Bryz?
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...dnt-pick-bryz/

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11-10-2013, 06:57 PM
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Thanks for the link.

The whole perception of deflecting blame seems ridiculous until there is anything proving Snider forced Holmgren to sign Bryz specifically. We don't know that's what happened, and basically Snider said that he told Holmgren to get the best goalie at whatever cost. That is not the same as Snider forcing Holmgren to sign Bryz.

At the end of the day Snider still did everything he could to mitigate the damage done by Bryz, everything else seems to be supported by speculation that became truth because they were repeated so many times.

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11-10-2013, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Any help on where Snider deflected blame for Bryz?



And you act as if the owner and GM of an NHL team are stupid people. Which seems more likely:

A) A group of know-it-alls on the internet jump to a bunch of conclusions and know more than the 40 year professionals.
B) The owner and GM of an NHL club worth hundreds of millions of dollars are idiots.

I'm going with A.

As far as the Richards and Carter trades, why do you refuse to believe that the players had anything to do with them being moved? You are also still making the Richards/Carter trades the vehicle to bring Bryz here, which is speculation. The Flyers could have moved minor pieces to get Bryz here, they didn't ship out their top two players because they wanted Bryz.


Jump to conclusions? Please, bud. We didn't jump to conclusions. We applied common sense to moves made at the time they were made, considered what was most likely to occur, and made predictions based on those common sense observations. And overall, we've had a good track record. It's just not that hard, for instance, to know that the Briere contract was more than likely going to be too long...or that we are very likely going to regret the length of the Streit contract.

Why do you insist on believing that off ice issues were the chief reason? You believe who, the media who had an obvious disdain for the players who didn't treat them like gods? Or the organization you trust so much, who has assured us those issues weren't the reason?

I deal with the facts we do know for certain with those moves. The facts we know for certain: There were too many holes to fill with the cap space available and nobody in the org worth calling up. The trades just happened to fix those issues...that's too convenient for coincidence. Especially since, as some argued at the time, the return for other players like Hartnell, Carle, Briere, etc wouldn't have been enough to pull that off.

I'm not saying the management is a bunch of idiots. They certainly know more than me; for instance I can't come up with the moves Homer does. However, I (and really, anyone here willing to put in some basic research) can evaluate the merits of those moves and judge the general direction of the organization and whether it is likely to succeed.

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11-10-2013, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Any help on where Snider deflected blame for Bryz?



And you act as if the owner and GM of an NHL team are stupid people. Which seems more likely:

A) A group of know-it-alls on the internet jump to a bunch of conclusions and know more than the 40 year professionals.
B) The owner and GM of an NHL club worth hundreds of millions of dollars are idiots.

I'm going with A.
I wonder how an Oilers fan would answer

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11-10-2013, 08:53 PM
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11-12-2013, 10:53 AM
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So it was Snider's stale perspective that lost them the Cup the last 5 times they were in the final? When exactly did it go stale? How did they even get the chance to play in the Finals 5 times since 1980 with such a stale owner?
1 Cup appearance in the last 16 years, and they needed a shootout on the last day of the season coupled with one of the most miraculous comebacks in a playoff series ever just to get there.

the 80's is ancient history and this organization is rotten from the inside out and it starts up at the top...

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11-12-2013, 10:55 AM
  #96
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1 Cup appearance in the last 16 years, and they needed a shootout on the last day of the season coupled with one of the most miraculous comebacks in a playoff series ever just to get there.

the 80's is ancient history and this organization is rotten from the inside out and it starts up at the top...
I thought winning was winning? Who cares if it took them a shootout and a miraculous comeback? They did it, didn't they?

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11-12-2013, 11:02 AM
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I thought winning was winning? Who cares if it took them a shootout and a miraculous comeback? They did it, didn't they?
of course
but that doesn't mean it wasn't flukey at the same time

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11-12-2013, 12:02 PM
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11-12-2013, 12:10 PM
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Thanks for the link.

The whole perception of deflecting blame seems ridiculous until there is anything proving Snider forced Holmgren to sign Bryz specifically. We don't know that's what happened, and basically Snider said that he told Holmgren to get the best goalie at whatever cost. That is not the same as Snider forcing Holmgren to sign Bryz.

At the end of the day Snider still did everything he could to mitigate the damage done by Bryz, everything else seems to be supported by speculation that became truth because they were repeated so many times.
You can spin it however you want. During the Summer of Bryz, Snider wined and dined him and talked about how important it was to get a good goalie after seeing Tim Thomas beat them and win the Cup. As if it was just hitting him that goalie was an important position (and doing very little about it for the previous decades) despite having won 2 Cups with arguably the best goalie of his era. Snider made it clear that he was involved.

Then Bryz turns into a disaster and Snider washes his hands and says he isn't involved, talk to Paul. Come on.

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11-12-2013, 12:31 PM
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Exactly. All Snider wants to do is win, and he does everything he can to make that a possibility. That is pretty much the best you can hope for in an owner of a sports franchise. One who wants to win at all costs. Ok, he may have bungled the Bryz situation, but over the past 50 years or so, that's about all we can point to in terms of Ed bungling things. And, when you get down to it, the general consensus was that the idea to get Bryz was fine, it was just the length and money on the contract that was the problem.
just the money and length of the contract. thats it?
oh well its just hindsight right?

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As far as the Richards and Carter trades, why do you refuse to believe that the players had anything to do with them being moved? You are also still making the Richards/Carter trades the vehicle to bring Bryz here, which is speculation. The Flyers could have moved minor pieces to get Bryz here, they didn't ship out their top two players because they wanted Bryz.
imagine if they traded Hartnell instead of Richards. where would we be?
The Carter trade was a good hockey trade. the jury is still out if the Richards deal is a win or even even deal for the Flyers right now. The way they talk about Richards on the Kings board they are pretty ecstatic over Richards right now.
the Flyers needed to move salary to get Bryzgalov signed. it was going to take moving more then just a couple of minor pieces to get it done. They were right up against the cap as always.
I would take Richards over Simmonds and Schenn. 10 times out of 10.

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