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Ducks Lineup Discussion (Part III)

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:15 PM
  #51
TheJoeMan
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Originally Posted by Ducks Nation View Post
Am I comparing them now? I said I think he will BE better.
If you're saying you think Theodore is going be X kind of player, you're just making a statement about him. When you say he's going to be better than Fowler specifically that is a comparison.

But you are resorting to semantics and personal attacks to avoid the counterpoints Sojourn and myself have made. This is a bold statement you're making and you aren't backing it up with anything other than conjecture.

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11-11-2013, 04:16 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
Oh and the even more risky thing that I'm sure even fewer people will agree with... but I'd also love to move Souray now. I'm sure there's a little bit of smoke and mirrors with all the young guys playing better than expected, but I really don't trust Souray to help for any extended length of time. He can help when he is in the lineup, but how much can you count on him being uninjured come playoffs? And then next season, when he's a year older and frailer?

The team has great chemistry as is. Leave it alone. The dreaded rookie wall might hit Magnus, but there's always Vats.
Ballsy.

I probably wouldn't be against it, but I'd still really like to see another top 4 defenseman instead of Lovejoy.

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:20 PM
  #53
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It's a real long shot to say that Theodore will be better. Big offensive numbers in juniors are good, but they don't say a lot. Just look at the unreal numbers Kevin Gagne put up last year. Sure, he doesn't have the size, but that isn't the only issue there. It takes a great hockey IQ to become a very good two-way defender in the NHL, and I don't know who of us has seen enough from Theodore to really tell whether he comes remotely close to Fowler in that regard. It would be fantastic if he would turn out even better, because that would mean we'd be stacked beyond belief. But it's not really a realistic expectation to have at this point.


In regards to goaltending - I have to say, I'm really calm and confident in Murray right now. He likely has a ton of options, and there's not a single one that I would totally dismiss. I could live with us trading any of our tenders. Least of all Gibson, but given how he's valued in the organisation and around the game, he'd only be moved for a stunning player to begin with, if that. I don't really see them dealing Andersen, given that for him we have the option to just send him down until the situation resolves itself, but you never know. If someone wants him badly enough, I'd certainly listen. I don't think trading Hiller is beyond the realm of the possible. It doesn't really take Andersen being proven by some standards, all it takes is our staff being confident in him (and Fasth and/or Gibson). Trading Fasth would create the issue of us possibly looking at Andersen/Gibson signed for next year. But then again, there's usually a few decent cheap backup options in free agency (like Greiss this year). But whatever way we'll go, I'm confident. We've developed a great situation there. Hopefully we'll put ourselves in a similar position with our skaters (although necessarily on a smaller scale) some time soon.

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11-11-2013, 04:24 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Eddie Shack View Post
I might have agreed at the beginning of the year. But considering he will only be playing a half season at best, Souray could be a perfect addition down the stretch. If he gets hurt again, we still have everybody else. If not and he goes to beast mode due to shortened season we only get better. His size and toughness will be huge if he can stay healthy.

Now at the end of the year I could be convinced to get rid of him.
I guess if you look at it as "he's already had his quota of injuries so he might be ok" then it works. And yes the size and toughness are things we could certainly use. But I still just have no trust that he'll stay healthy enough to help like he theoretically should.

My other minor worry is that at the end of the year he'll become a negative asset.
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Ballsy.

I probably wouldn't be against it, but I'd still really like to see another top 4 defenseman instead of Lovejoy.
I guess you could flip whatever picks/prospects you get from moving Souray and Hiller to rent a top defenseman. We also have the extra 1st and Holland (and some say Sbisa) to dangle.

I'm generally pretty risk averse. But for some reason when it comes to Souray and Hiller vs the young guys coming up (not just these specific young guys, but also the fact that there are multiple of them) I feel a little bolder.



edit: Oh and Theodore might have high potential. But remember that Fowler also had sky-high offensive potential at the time. So it's no guarantee that the offense translates. And as we've seen with Schultz and JJ, it's also not a given that the defense for these riverboat gambler types can become learned.

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:35 PM
  #55
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So what you are saying is after seeing both of them play at the same age a person cannot make a prediction because some players have failed in the past... Interesting

So it isn't fair to say I think Gibson will be better than Hiller because many goalies have failed.
You are not paying attention. I said in the first sentence of my first response that you are entitled to your opinion. I then told you why I didn't agree with you. They are mutually exclusive events. I didn't tell you you couldn't have an opinion.

You seem to be having a hard time accepting people not agreeing with you, even when they explain why they don't agree. It might help if you actually took the time to consider somebody else's opinion and why they hold it. You don't have to agree with them to understand them.

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:38 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Eddie Shack View Post
You are not paying attention. I said in the first sentence of my first response that you are entitled to your opinion. I then told you why I didn't agree with you. They are mutually exclusive events. I didn't tell you you couldn't have an opinion.

You seem to be having a hard time accepting people not agreeing with you, even when they explain why they don't agree. It might help if you actually took the time to consider somebody else's opinion and why they hold it. You don't have to agree with them to understand them.
Not really I don't care I just have a problem with you saying we can't compare them because ones in the NHL and ones not. Gibson will be better than Hiller IMO was most would agree and it's the same situation. When Fowler came into the league we didn't have the defense depth we have now.

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11-11-2013, 04:40 PM
  #57
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I actually think getting picks wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. The ducks pretty much hit their limit on depth. After Rakell we have Holland who the Ducks havn't deemed to be an NHLer and Sauve(who I think has been pretty good and might also pass Holland). After them it's all people who are very small and probably won't make the NHL because of it.

Whitney 5'7 162
Sarault 5'11 181
Friberg 5'11 195

After the current group of prospects make the team (looks like everyone but Holland will) Norfolk is going to be barren. For a few years after next the ducks are going to have to rely mostly on FA and picks from next year on. Whether you want to delay that problem to next year or not it doesn't matter. If the younger players give the Ducks the best chance to win now, creating a roster spot for them while acquiring picks wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
William Karlsson is expected to leave Sweden at the end of this year, this is Illo's last year in college, and there's still the question of what our top college forwards decide at year's end: Kerdiles and Roy. We have not peaked in the slightest.

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:45 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
I guess if you look at it as "he's already had his quota of injuries so he might be ok" then it works. And yes the size and toughness are things we could certainly use. But I still just have no trust that he'll stay healthy enough to help like he theoretically should.

My other minor worry is that at the end of the year he'll become a negative asset.
I'm not exactly saying I think he will stay injury free, only that we could cut lose Fistric and send Sami back down. Juggle everybody else till the end of the year . Then you play Souray and tell him to go all out. If he stays healthy he can be a big positive. If not, we aren't any worse off than what we have now. I see it as a chance for upside with no downside.

If he plays well the rest of the year for us he hopefully won't be a negative asset. If it doesn't work out then maybe we have a bit of a financial risk that I'm willing to take if we continue to look this good all year.

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:48 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Eddie Shack View Post
I'm not exactly saying I think he will stay injury free, only that we could cut lose Fistric and send Sami back down. Juggle everybody else till the end of the year . Then you play Souray and tell him to go all out. If he stays healthy he can be a big positive. If not, we aren't any worse off than what we have now. I see it as a chance for upside with no downside.

If he plays well the rest of the year for us he hopefully won't be a negative asset. If it doesn't work out then maybe we have a bit of a financial risk that I'm willing to take if we continue to look this good all year.
A couple possible downsides are that he could be taking up salary that we can't be saving for another acquisition and that his insertion might screw up some chemistry (although any acquisitions would obviously also affect this).

But yeah I guess there isn't too much downside to keeping him. For me it's more I don't see much upside to keeping him and I do expect a lot of downside next season.

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11-11-2013, 04:49 PM
  #60
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Considering his injury history and how long he's out, I don't see how he can be viewed as a great trade asset, right now. Odds are that teams are going to want to see how he's playing when healthy before they even consider asking about him.

That's also putting aside that there's never been even a hint that our org is disappointed in him and looking to move on.

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:51 PM
  #61
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Personally when Souray is healthy I would like to see him paired with Fowler

Lindholm Beauchemin
Souray Fowler
Allen Vatanen

Gives every line a puck mover, physical presence and someone able to carry the puck

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:54 PM
  #62
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#NHLDucks have assigned G Viktor Fasth (lower body) and LW Matt Beleskey (hand) to Norfolk (AHL) on long-term injury conditioning loans.
https://twitter.com/Duckscolorman

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:54 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Ducks Nation View Post
Not really I don't care I just have a problem with you saying we can't compare them because ones in the NHL and ones not. Gibson will be better than Hiller IMO was most would agree and it's the same situation. When Fowler came into the league we didn't have the defense depth we have now.
You're playing semantics. I told you why I think it is a poor idea to try and compare them. The fact that they are so far apart in their respective development. But feel free to discount anybody else's view because it isn't what you want to hear.

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Old
11-11-2013, 04:57 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
A couple possible downsides are that he could be taking up salary that we can't be saving for another acquisition and that his insertion might screw up some chemistry (although any acquisitions would obviously also affect this).

But yeah I guess there isn't too much downside to keeping him. For me it's more I don't see much upside to keeping him and I do expect a lot of downside next season.
Well, I wouldn't lose any sleep if he never came back. But like ED said, there probably isn't a market for him currently and there is the glimmer that his toughness really could be a nice addition should we end up making a serious cup run.

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Old
11-11-2013, 05:07 PM
  #65
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To be expected. Makes sense on all levels. Buys some time to further evaluate our goaltending situation, and allows these guys to get into game shape to hit the ground running to some degree and not have to catch up with a team going this fast off the bat.

Anyone know how long "long-term injury conditioning loans" are? Don't feel like browsing the CBA right now.

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11-11-2013, 05:11 PM
  #66
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To be expected. Makes sense on all levels. Buys some time to further evaluate our goaltending situation, and allows these guys to get into game shape to hit the ground running to some degree and not have to catch up with a team going this fast off the bat.

Anyone know how long "long-term injury conditioning loans" are? Don't feel like browsing the CBA right now.
I think when Sbisa went down I read 6 days or 3 games whichever is less. That would be the max allowed.

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11-11-2013, 05:12 PM
  #67
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Whats the Steckel signing mean?

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Old
11-11-2013, 05:15 PM
  #68
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Whats the Steckel signing mean?
Probably Koivu or Getzlaf out for longer than they are saying...

Etem-steckel-palms was awesome last year.

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11-11-2013, 05:18 PM
  #69
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Whats the Steckel signing mean?
It means we have two injured regular centers and only unproved rookies to fill in for them.

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11-11-2013, 05:19 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Ducks Nation View Post
Not really I don't care I just have a problem with you saying we can't compare them because ones in the NHL and ones not. Gibson will be better than Hiller IMO was most would agree and it's the same situation. When Fowler came into the league we didn't have the defense depth we have now.
I remember years ago when d was our main issue come draft. BPA remember that ****? Defense was always drafted as a hot commodity. You wanted defense wtf do we have now AHL cuts? Sounds like a plan

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Old
11-11-2013, 05:19 PM
  #71
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As per Stephens, Getzlaf is travelling with the team, Koivu is not.

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Old
11-11-2013, 05:21 PM
  #72
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Steckel will stay in the AHL. Also, Beleskey and Fasth are being sent down on a conditioning stint.

A couple of interesting points from Friedman's 30 thoughts:

Quote:
18. One of the rumoured goalies Edmonton checked out was Jonas Hiller of the Anaheim Ducks. A couple of GMs thought there was no way this would happen because Ducks GM Bob Murray tries hard not to trade within his own (Pacific) division. Apparently, some of the offers for Bobby Ryan were from that area. Murray wanted no part of that and Ryan was traded to Ottawa.

23. Ryan said there was one on-ice adjustment with his transition from Anaheim to Ottawa. Senators head coach Paul MacLean wants his forwards to engage opponents who go to the half-wall with the puck in the defensive zone. Ryan remembers then-Ducks head coach Randy Carlyle demanding they stay in the middle of the ice. "If the goalie can't stop it from out there, we'll get another one," Ryan said Carlyle would say.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/hoc...puck-more.html

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11-11-2013, 05:22 PM
  #73
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I know there are a lot of Sbisa supporters on this board, but he hasn't looked good at all this season. He continues to choose poor times to pinch, gets caught out of place (see Vancouver goal last night), and makes mistakes for this team.

I'm not saying that all what he is doing is bad, but he has made quite a few noticable mistakes that are hemming us in our own zone.

With the rise of Lindholm and Vatanen, (and the eminent return of Souray), we have at least 8 quality NHL defensemen on the roster now. Someone should be expendable at this point, and in my opinion it's Sbisa.
You are wrong on both counts.(IMO)
this forum mostly hates Sbisa, when he makes a mistake it's constantly pointed out, but when he makes a good play it's regularly overlooked like last night when he broke up a 3 on 1 by himself, then a minute later the ducks end up getting the eventual GWG, is he praised for that? No he's not. and as for a bad pinch, when was that? he hasn't done it much but a few times that he has jumped in the play it helped create offense, also BB system requires the D to pinch on the walls alot.

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11-11-2013, 05:26 PM
  #74
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glad that we signed steckel
good insurance in case of injuries, and i thought he played well for us last year

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Old
11-11-2013, 05:39 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Professor John Frink View Post
I understand what people are saying. Anderson certainly looks ready for the NHL.

But why make a position of great strength a question mark going into the rest of the 65 or so games the Ducks have left to play?

Both Hiller and Fasth have shown they are prone to injuries, which makes having Anderson that much more valuable going into the rest of the season and playoffs.

People should look at the value of having 3 goalies who can play NHL minutes, rather than being so quick to trade away an asset simply because the Ducks have a surplus. This team isn't borderline anymore. They are contenders. Going into the second half of the season and playoffs with Hiller/Fasth then allowing Hiller to walk is the right move for a solid playoff team. Sure you won't get an asset in return for Hiller, but you will gain 4.5 million in cap space which can help solidify another position where maybe the Ducks aren't as strong.
What you are saying does make sense. It does give us more depth. It just means we will be usuing our 2nd and 3rd best options in goal instead of our 1st.

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