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Old
11-10-2013, 09:32 AM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Squantosawuss View Post
With that plan, awful teams will have a much more difficult time climbing out of the gutter, especially if it is a smaller market team like Buffalo.

I have no problem with the worst teams getting a bigger advantage in getting top picks. There should be a graduated odds advantage based on how poorly you finish. To combat the "race to the bottom" problem, the worst team should only get a marginally better chance than the second-to-last team, etc. etc.

NO WAY should a team that just missed the playoffs be on equal footing in getting a top pick as the team at the bottom.
Might motivate you to win a few more games then, huh?

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11-10-2013, 09:33 AM
  #577
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And how many times would the Sabres gotten the 2nd overall pick instead of the 12th or 13th? Odds are it's good.

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11-10-2013, 09:46 AM
  #578
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Its so weird to me. Last offseason we are offering Parise and Suter the most money to take us to the cup, less then a year later we are trading Pominville to play with Parise and Suter and embracing a rebuild. lol.

I feel like I am in a bad relationship but we cant breakup.
It is a drastic change to say the least; however, I am glad that we at least seem to have a plan (and I agree with the assessment that the previous core group of players wasn't going to get the job done). We are still missing a superstar and that previous core group without a superstar wasn't going to win a cup AND no matter how much money we offer we can't seem to get one through FA. So hopefully that is what we get out of the 2014 draft in an alternate approach. We have a couple potential future stars on D but we haven't had one at forward since the days of Patty La and Mogilny. So hopefully we get a F star through the draft and can add the complementary pieces through FA instead of complimentary pieces through the draft and no star pieces through FA we've been doing for the past 9 years.


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Old
11-10-2013, 10:00 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Isn't it comically simplistic, then, to plan on 21 year olds being better NHL players than they were at 18? That's basically what we're talking about.
Like Tyler Myers was better 2 years after his rookie season? Development of players isn't usually a ever rising line on graph as they steadily get better. Its usually a lot of ups and downs and the key for them is to work through these moments to get that swaying up and down in their play to be less frequent. And that brings me to the guy tasked to help with that......

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I mean, if you don't believe that young players develop, then by all means, roar with frustration over how we can possibly expect to improve over this year.
.... I don't think Rolston is the right guy to develop these youngsters. I also don't think Regier's thinking of playing so many kids in the NHL is the right idea for their development. I think some of the current youngsters shouldn't even be here. So if I think these things, its not much of a reach logically for me to think things aren't going to magically be ok in a few years just because players are older.


I also think you missed the point I was making with my comment -- Why exactly are we going to see "noticeable improvement" in 15/16? Thats on me for not properly fleshing out what I meant. I'll flesh it out now.

The two timelines that appeared before my post had us picking 1-3 the next two years. Those posts asserted we were going to be as bad next season as we are this season then the year after seeing a noticeable improvement. Why exactly would that happen? I get the sense with many the answer is just because. I really don't think posters fully grasp how epically bad we are and we've actually gotten worse since the start of the season. If that continues next year, why would we suddenly surge forward the following season?


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11-10-2013, 10:37 AM
  #580
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If that continues next year, why would we suddenly surge forward the following season?
Because all Hockey players have a switch that is automatically turned on when they reach 21 years old that turns them into great players. Also 21 is when most Hockey players begin to peak before they hit the old age of 25 or 26 and decline.

Anyways...

I wish I knew Regier and Devine's reasoning for all of the teenagers so that I knew whether to laugh or cry. I think I kind of have a grasp why it's being done but it's stupid. I think they have way more faith in the youngsters than I do and are banking on them being able to progress at a rate that will allow the team to be competitive sooner. Fast track the 18 and 19 year old guys so that our 2014 and 2015 draft picks can come in and have some competitive young teammates. Only it's not going to work like that with Rolston as the coach.

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11-10-2013, 11:01 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The two timelines that appeared before my post had us picking 1-3 the next two years. Those posts asserted we were going to be as bad next season as we are this season then the year after seeing a noticeable improvement. Why exactly would that happen? I get the sense with many the answer is just because. I really don't think posters fully grasp how epically bad we are and we've actually gotten worse since the start of the season. If that continues next year, why would we suddenly surge forward the following season?
I think you're looking for a precise answer to a question that it's unfair to expect one from.

The "timeline" is guesswork, and it's loose. We could start improving sooner. We could improve later. The central concept is one that's about as solid a strategy of team building as I can imagine: stockpile a horde of first and second rounders, with a smattering of top ten picks in there, wait and watch them become competitive in their early 20s. If there's a generic path to success in the NHL that's more reliable than that one, I don't know what it is. It certainly isn't to rely on trades and FA.

You might say, "that's BS, because you can't pretend to plan 5 years out with such a loose conception of what will happen year to year." But I would counter that that line of thinking applies to every team building strategy. I've never heard a five year plan in the NHL that could rationalize why things would happen in year 4 that hadn't happened in year 3. You're taking a criticism that could apply to any long term team building strategy and putting it on one you oppose. You might be able to take that line of thinking and convince people that they don't really know what 2018 will be like, but that isn't hard. What you haven't done is convinced folks that, just because they can't reliably forecast the next five years, their team building strategy is bad.

As for Rolston being the wrong guy to develop these players, I suspect you're right. But I'll also allow that the first 20 games of our prospects careers is hard to judge anything on, and from the outside, we don't have any idea what he's trying to teach them, either.

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11-10-2013, 12:09 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I think you're looking for a precise answer to a question that it's unfair to expect one from.
Its quite fair to ask posters that keep asserting with confidence that this will be our path to success the next 4 or 5 years. What are they basing it on? Development of our current prospects? Or what I think they are basing it on, us hitting the jackpot in the next two drafts. I don't need specifics on the when it will happen (the surge towards success) but the why is definitely a fair question to ask.

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The "timeline" is guesswork, and it's loose. We could start improving sooner. We could improve later.
No kidding and its why I find the timelines to be so comical.

Quote:
The central concept is one that's about as solid a strategy of team building as I can imagine: stockpile a horde of first and second rounders, with a smattering of top ten picks in there, wait and watch them become competitive in their early 20s. If there's a generic path to success in the NHL that's more reliable than that one, I don't know what it is. It certainly isn't to rely on trades and FA.
The Sabres stockpiling picks is a great start to a team building strategy. But to think we are going to just sit back and wait for them develop into a Cup contender is pure silliness. No Cup team was ever built in such a fashion. The key to success is what Regier does with all these assets (picks/prospects) going forward to augment the roster with pieces we need. Every team needs some trades and UFA signings to build their Cup teams. The draft can definitely give a team a strong base to work from and it has already done that for us. If we are successful in turning things around. It will be due to the young players already on the roster and the prospects already in the system. But to add every piece we will need, trades and UFA will need to be utilized. Although I think the UFA path would most likely be for minor adds. I can only see trades as a an option for bigger pieces.


Quote:
You might say, "that's BS, because you can't pretend to plan 5 years out with such a loose conception of what will happen year to year." But I would counter that that line of thinking applies to every team building strategy. I've never heard a five year plan in the NHL that could rationalize why things would happen in year 4 that hadn't happened in year 3. You're taking a criticism that could apply to any long term team building strategy and putting it on one you oppose. You might be able to take that line of thinking and convince people that they don't really know what 2018 will be like, but that isn't hard. What you haven't done is convinced folks that, just because they can't reliably forecast the next five years, their team building strategy is bad.
No idea what you point is here. I'm not arguing against the path the Sabres have taken just the simplistic timelines some cling to as the definitive road to success. I want to know why the feel so confident as I explained above. What are the specific things that will take place that gives them confidence?

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As for Rolston being the wrong guy to develop these players, I suspect you're right. But I'll also allow that the first 20 games of our prospects careers is hard to judge anything on, and from the outside, we don't have any idea what he's trying to teach them, either.
His coaching is very easy to judge. He has no structure to the lines, not idea on how to properly deploy certain lines and players. There is accountability to some a extent but its not always very logical and everyone isn't held to the same standard. He also isn't given players clearly defined roles to assist their development and chances at success. There are numerous examples.

I don't think the world is ending with the prospects or that they are going to be ruined btw. But they are having their development time in the NHL this year wasted while Rolston is at the helm.

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11-10-2013, 12:34 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Its quite fair to ask posters that keep asserting with confidence that this will be our path to success the next 4 or 5 years. What are they basing it on? Development of our current prospects? Or what I think they are basing it on, us hitting the jackpot in the next two drafts. I don't need specifics on the when it will happen (the surge towards success) but the why is definitely a fair question to ask.
Development.

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The Sabres stockpiling picks is a great start to a team building strategy. But to think we are going to just sit back and wait for them develop into a Cup contender is pure silliness.
Don't think anyone disagrees with you.

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No Cup team was ever built in such a fashion. The key to success is what Regier does with all these assets (picks/prospects) going forward to augment the roster with pieces we need. Every team needs some trades and UFA signings to build their Cup teams.
Ditto.
Quote:
The draft can definitely give a team a strong base to work from and it has already done that for us. If we are successful in turning things around. It will be due to the young players already on the roster and the prospects already in the system.
Or others that we add.

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But to add every piece we will need, trades and UFA will need to be utilized. Although I think the UFA path would most likely be for minor adds. I can only see trades as a an option for bigger pieces.
Right.

Quote:
No idea what you point is here. I'm not arguing against the path the Sabres have taken just the simplistic timelines some cling to as the definitive road to success. I want to know why the feel so confident as I explained above. What are the specific things that will take place that gives them confidence?
Point is you're asking for something impossible, not just in defense of this team building strategy, but any.

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11-10-2013, 12:57 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Development.
Weak argument for the time lines I was referencing. If they are arguing we will be at the bottom of the standings and one of the worst teams in the league this year and next. But will magically show huge improvement the year after that. Why? Development. I'm sorry but thats such a lame argument.


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Don't think anyone disagrees with you.
If you actually think this you haven't been paying attention. They are plenty that have projected out lines based on the belief we will draft and develop our contending roster.


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Ditto.
See above


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Or others that we add.
Not in the timelines that have been laid out.

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Right.
Again not what all are saying or thinking in how this will play out.

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Point is you're asking for something impossible, not just in defense of this team building strategy, but any
Again missing the point and beating the drum for you mantra. I'm asking why the certainty. Its only impossible if you have no clue what your talking about or cling to the fantasy that the next 2 drafts will provide us with saviors. Explaining with coherence why things can get better in any given year takes a little time but can be done. Part of the problem is too many talk in hypotheticals and generics. What are the pieces we will likely need in a year or two?

I also love how you jump in and A) assume you know what I'm talking about and B) speak for others that have yet to defend their own stance and C) repeatedly ignore points I bring up. As an example you've ignored my comments on Rolston


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11-10-2013, 01:16 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I also love how you jump in and A) assume you what I'm talking about and B) speak for others that have yet to defend their own stance and C) repeatedly ignore points I bring up. As an example you've ignored my comments on Rolston
(a) Isn't grammatically a sentence, so not sure what you're saying.
(b) maybe i should stop and let the guys you're trying to call out speak for themselves, then.
(c) I already agreed with you on Rolston. Why should I say it again?


To put my perspective out there, so you can react to it instead of us arguing about what third parties might be saying, I expect our defensemen to develop more slowly, as is a trend in the NHL. It seems to take a few years to really learn the game. You're starting to see the fruits with Pysyk now, but that's because he's had a couple more years to learn. So I think Risto and Zads will take a minute, and as long as they're the brightest part of our pipeline, I wouldn't be surprised if we suck next year as well.

I think our forward pipeline doesn't look bright enough to project a future contender emerging from it. I think Girgensons might one day be a Lucic, but I don't think Grigorenko is going to be more than a soft scoring player who might even get pushed to wing, or even a 3C type on a deep team. Compher is my favorite to project as an impact forward right now, but he's 4 years away, according to most.

So yes, I agree that we will never be a contender unless our current group develops. But even if our current group develops, I still see us being weak up front. And that's why I want us to get some forward prospects in the next draft or two. Forwards are far easier to project than defensemen at age 18, and if they're a year or two behind our best D, they'll probably still be likely to mature around the same time.

I fully expect us to have to make trades and signings, but like you said, trades are likely the only place where we're going to get key pieces. The catch there is you can expect trades to be for even value. So we might trade from a position of strength to address a weakness, like maybe a Risto for a power forward someday.

So the problem with projecting those potential trades today is (a) like projecting trades tomorrow, it's wildly unpredictable, and (b) you have to have some value on your roster first. We're trying to build that value through the draft now. It's not here yet. It hopefully will be in a couple year's time. So I don't see the point in addressing your need to project moves 3-4 years off.

Why make a timeline? So you have a reasonable goal. It's not reasonable to say we'll win the cup next year. It's not reasonable to say we'll win the cup in two years. If we consistently draft well, however, it's reasonable to start predicting our current rookies might be ready in 3-4 years time to make the playoffs, and proceed from there. Once you have a team where the homegrown core can make the playoffs, then you start thinking about adding to it via trades and FA. If you have to try and go from last place to cup winner via trade, you're counting on a lot of stupid GMs.

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11-10-2013, 01:26 PM
  #586
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Again missing the point and beating the drum for you mantra. I'm asking why the certainty. Its only impossible if you have no clue what your talking about or cling to the fantasy that the next 2 drafts will provide us with saviors. Explaining with coherence why things can get better in any given year takes a little time but can be done. Part of the problem is too many talk in hypotheticals and generics. What are the pieces we will likely need in a year or two?
(1) No certainty. It's actually kind of a joke and an insult to accuse everyone of having certainty.

(2) Not saviors. But hopefully guys who project to be top line talents. I don't think Grigs projects there anymore, and Armia is raising flags for me with a weak training camp. Obviously, guys can exceed expectations, but no one is inspiring confidence from me right now.

(3) I really don't see why you're harping on folks for talking in generics. If I were to say we need a top line C (which I think we probably do) and a top line LW (which I think we probably do), and we can then hope that Armia turns it around and slots up in the RW position, I'd be drawing myself into a stupid corner. You could then attack me for my certainty that Grigorenko doesn't pan out, or that I don't understand Possler's potential at LW. Anything can ****ing happen. This is guesswork. And that brings me back to my first point: you're accusing people of having certainty, and then demanding they make some very specific, certain recommendations for what happens 3 years out, when we have no idea exactly how well our prospects will do.

All we can do - all anyone can do, I think - is look at our current prospects and hope for an average success rate between them. And that means we don't know exactly where the biggest hole will be in three years, or what will have to happen specifically to overcome it, but I do think it's reasonable to expect increasingly good seasons as a glut of high draft picks develops, if we spread out the potential talent between all positions. That's all. Right now our D prospects are deeper and better than our F. I want them to balance that out with some high picks over the next year or two, and then we'll have to wait and see.

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11-11-2013, 10:25 AM
  #587
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It is going to be hard work staying under Edmonton and Florida. Those guys are tough tank competition. sheesh!

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11-11-2013, 10:38 AM
  #588
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just point to Colorado, and say "see, it's possible"... and then watch all the differences in situation get argued over...

"Prove your optimism for the future!!!"... meh, get over yourself.

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11-11-2013, 12:00 PM
  #589
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It is going to be hard work staying under Edmonton and Florida. Those guys are tough tank competition. sheesh!
Agreed, but then we should look to the Habs for inspiration.
In the 1971 draft they owned the first round pick of the Seals (California, or Oakland or whatever) and found that the Kings were getting a little too close for comfort. What did the Habs do? Why trade a decent player to the Kings for a bag of pucks of course.

Don't know what the Seals were thinking when they traded the pick, both Lafleur and Dionne were available in the upcoming draft.

Maybe they were afraid of the tank?

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11-11-2013, 12:39 PM
  #590
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I'd say break the non-playoff teams up into 2 groups, and do lotteries within each group. I feel like a team on the bubble shouldn't be winning 1st overall. If it were in 2 groups, a team could potentially move up or down 7 places, which would accomplish the same thing as what you said, but also create an element of fairness for the weakest teams - giving them a much bigger chance at 1st overall.
Interesting concept. Perhaps make the tiers: one tier composed of the last place team in each division, which would then be in a weighted lottery for 1st overall, and then the rest of the non-playoff teams also engaging in a weighted lottery for (currently) the 5th slot. It's somewhat analogous to the new structure for qualifying for the playoffs in being highly division-oriented.

Of course, the Sabres would be in a tough division under than plan, neck-and-neck with Florida. Maybe not the overall tanking depth of the Metro, but with 2 very high-level tank teams

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11-11-2013, 12:52 PM
  #591
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His coaching is very easy to judge. He has no structure to the lines, not idea on how to properly deploy certain lines and players. There is accountability to some a extent but its not always very logical and everyone isn't held to the same standard. He also isn't given players clearly defined roles to assist their development and chances at success. There are numerous examples.
Maybe this is better fit for one of the other Rolston threads but since it's here I'll comment here.

Without making a comment on Rolston's capabilities one way or the other, I find the concerns about deployment and combos to be not particularly relevant to his coaching evaluation.

Teams that are trying to win, and frankly have forward corps that is constructed with some logic, instead of just through together from leftovers and prospects, should care about combos and usage. That's conventional but I don't really care about it when it comes to the Sabres. Four lines have to be constructed somehow, you need to have players on the ice for each faceoff.

I actually think it's an advantage for this team to see as many players playing with each other, and in as many situations as possible. If we're being forced to evaluate this season as an extended training camp, isn't it worthwhile to get as much information as possible? Obvious Rolston wants to win, even if he (as a coach) and the roster (as constructed) isn't capable of winning much. But to worry about who is playing with who, and when, doesn't seem applicable to this team. I don't know if Rolston is doing this intentionally, but I for one hope it continues. I'm embracing this particularly non-conventionality.

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11-11-2013, 12:59 PM
  #592
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Maybe this is better fit for one of the other Rolston threads but since it's here I'll comment here.

Without making a comment on Rolston's capabilities one way or the other, I find the concerns about deployment and combos to be not particularly relevant to his coaching evaluation.

Teams that are trying to win, and frankly have forward corps that is constructed with some logic, instead of just through together from leftovers and prospects, should care about combos and usage. That's conventional but I don't really care about it when it comes to the Sabres. Four lines have to be constructed somehow, you need to have players on the ice for each faceoff.

I actually think it's an advantage for this team to see as many players playing with each other, and in as many situations as possible. If we're being forced to evaluate this season as an extended training camp, isn't it worthwhile to get as much information as possible? Obvious Rolston wants to win, even if he (as a coach) and the roster (as constructed) isn't capable of winning much. But to worry about who is playing with who, and when, doesn't seem applicable to this team. I don't know if Rolston is doing this intentionally, but I for one hope it continues. I'm embracing this particularly non-conventionality.
I agree. And It's obviously on purpose.

It's hard for those that don't believe the franchises intent, to see it that way.

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11-11-2013, 07:32 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post
Maybe this is better fit for one of the other Rolston threads but since it's here I'll comment here.

Without making a comment on Rolston's capabilities one way or the other, I find the concerns about deployment and combos to be not particularly relevant to his coaching evaluation.

Teams that are trying to win, and frankly have forward corps that is constructed with some logic, instead of just through together from leftovers and prospects, should care about combos and usage. That's conventional but I don't really care about it when it comes to the Sabres. Four lines have to be constructed somehow, you need to have players on the ice for each faceoff.
In a general sense I would agree but with the youngsters I completely disagree. I'll point to the recent use of Foligno. He's not a center and projects out to be a 2/3 winger. He needs to work on his offensive game and two way play overall. So why is Rolston plugging him in as our #2 center and matching him up against the likes of Getzlaf? What can possibly be gained for Foligno to be taken to school for several games now and to be in over his head at a position he will never play on a contending team. If you were going to use a young player in that role then why not use the young center in Larsson who tracks out to be a 3rd line two way defensive center. You know the type of center that is likely going to have that role down the road. Give that guy a little taste because at least that would make some sense. But the best solution would have been to use a vet that doesn't figure into our future plans as the center like Leino or Porter. They would just be filler to allow Foligno to go back to wing.

Quote:
I actually think it's an advantage for this team to see as many players playing with each other, and in as many situations as possible. If we're being forced to evaluate this season as an extended training camp, isn't it worthwhile to get as much information as possible?
Rolston hasn't played a lot of combos together. So this "praise" makes no sense. Our top 4 dmen when healthy have been the same all season Pysyk/Hoff and Myers/Tallinder. The bottom pairing has changed a bit with injuries but when healthy it will likely by Weber/XXX

His special teams units don't have much variety either and he stays with lines for a very long team with the occasional minor tweaks.

So I guess I'm tad confused by this excitement you have over his experimenting with different combos. He also doesn't use a lot of different people in a lot of different situations. He just uses the wrong ones in certain situations.

Quote:
Obvious Rolston wants to win, even if he (as a coach) and the roster (as constructed) isn't capable of winning much. But to worry about who is playing with who, and when, doesn't seem applicable to this team. I don't know if Rolston is doing this intentionally, but I for one hope it continues. I'm embracing this particularly non-conventionality
Its applicable to any team.


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11-11-2013, 07:39 PM
  #594
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just point to Colorado, and say "see, it's possible"... and then watch all the differences in situation get argued over...

"Prove your optimism for the future!!!"... meh, get over yourself.

Its a good point. Those assuming this will work ignore Edmonton and Columbus. Those that love way we are moving point to Chicago & Colorado.

What can we do besides pure dumb luck and the proper picks in the draft to mimic chitown and Colorado?

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11-11-2013, 08:02 PM
  #595
5 Minute Major
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Originally Posted by Selanne00008 View Post
Its a good point. Those assuming this will work ignore Edmonton and Columbus. Those that love way we are moving point to Chicago & Colorado.

What can we do besides pure dumb luck and the proper picks in the draft to mimic chitown and Colorado?
Did any of those teams own as many first and second round picks as the Sabres?

Obviously, the next two drafts we will have very high picks...and they will be extremely important but let's not forget about the rest of the picks we have. A player, or two, could emerge as elite from those many picks.

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11-11-2013, 08:46 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Did any of those teams own as many first and second round picks as the Sabres?

Obviously, the next two drafts we will have very high picks...and they will be extremely important but let's not forget about the rest of the picks we have. A player, or two, could emerge as elite from those many picks.
Posssssssssler.

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11-11-2013, 08:46 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Did any of those teams own as many first and second round picks as the Sabres?

Obviously, the next two drafts we will have very high picks...and they will be extremely important but let's not forget about the rest of the picks we have. A player, or two, could emerge as elite from those many picks.
My hope for our depth of picks is more to create a supporting cast than to try and up our odds of a sleeper star. You need both 1-2 really elite guys, and also a supporting cast that includes quality depth at every position. That's the difference between successful tanks and terrible ones. I think we're on the right path.

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11-11-2013, 08:58 PM
  #598
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
My hope for our depth of picks is more to create a supporting cast than to try and up our odds of a sleeper star. You need both 1-2 really elite guys, and also a supporting cast that includes quality depth at every position. That's the difference between successful tanks and terrible ones. I think we're on the right path.
This is where I stand as well.

Depth. Depth. Depth.


Choices. Choices. Choices.

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11-12-2013, 09:34 AM
  #599
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In a general sense I would agree but with the youngsters I completely disagree. I'll point to the recent use of Foligno. He's not a center and projects out to be a 2/3 winger. He needs to work on his offensive game and two way play overall. So why is Rolston plugging him in as our #2 center and matching him up against the likes of Getzlaf? What can possibly be gained for Foligno to be taken to school for several games now and to be in over his head at a position he will never play on a contending team. If you were going to use a young player in that role then why not use the young center in Larsson who tracks out to be a 3rd line two way defensive center. You know the type of center that is likely going to have that role down the road. Give that guy a little taste because at least that would make some sense. But the best solution would have been to use a vet that doesn't figure into our future plans as the center like Leino or Porter. They would just be filler to allow Foligno to go back to wing.
How does it hurt, though? Using the Foligno example helps determine what his ceiling is. There are still 63 games left, plenty of time for experimentation and hopefully Larsson gets his chance in a "2nd line" role as well. As does Girgensons, and Grigorenko et cetera.


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Rolston hasn't played a lot of combos together. So this "praise" makes no sense. Our top 4 dmen when healthy have been the same all season Pysyk/Hoff and Myers/Tallinder. The bottom pairing has changed a bit with injuries but when healthy it will likely by Weber/XXX

His special teams units don't have much variety either and he stays with lines for a very long team with the occasional minor tweaks.

Sure he has, but not with everyone. Grigorenko has played with most of the guys in the bottom six, as has Larsson. Foligno has played with Ennis, Stafford, Ott, Leino, Tropp. Maybe I fomented some confusion because I think Rolston is moving towards a more variable forward deployment and I hope that continues. As I said, this is a season long training camp for these guys, and there's still three quarters (oh dear god ) of the season left to keep experimenting. And, as I said, I hope it continues and I reserve the right to exercise concern if it doesn't.

As for the D-combos I'm not sure I agree. Pysyk/Ehrhoff has been the constant but Myers and played with Zadorov as well. Ristolainen has played with Weber, McBain, some with Zadorov.

Quick EDIT: I'm defending the complete body of Rolston's work (see below) but in my honest assessment, line combos aren't something I get particularly worked up over. Ruff's combos never particularly bothered me, Rolston's don't, the next coach probably won't. They're just a point in time and though I have a lot of concerns over whether or not Rolston is an asset for this rebuild, how deploys the players in this team doesn't bother me much. On it's best day, this a team that has a second line, a third line and two fourths; he's overly limited. I just want him to embrace those limitations and try to extract some value from the situation. To me, that value is getting these players a lot of situational experiences. But that's just me.

Quote:
So I guess I'm tad confused by this excitement you have over his experimenting with different combos. He also doesn't use a lot of different people in a lot of different situations. He just uses the wrong ones in certain situations.
Strawman, I didn't say nor imply excitement. What I don't want is a hockey ops that is treating a massively young and inexperienced team with little veteran presence (by presence I mean and combination of leadership and production) like it's any other team. I want something unconventional. If you don't, fine, we'll figure it out in the wash but if the organization is committed to treating this season like a training camp, then they should fully embrace that concept, IMO.



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Its applicable to any team.
Maybe, but for this team I frankly don't care. I'm more concerned about the lack of structure, adherence to a seemingly structureless defensive philosophy and inconsistent (though improving, IMO) accountability. But combinations and deployments don't matter to me. He can't massage the roster construction to turn this into a competitive team.




As an aside, it amuses me that Jame and I agree with each other and disagree with you on this topic but I agree with you and disagree with Jame regarding how much faith there should be in the structure and plan for this rebuild. Who says there isn't any bipartisanship.


Last edited by Ruckus007: 11-12-2013 at 09:41 AM.
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11-12-2013, 09:52 AM
  #600
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post
As an aside, it amuses me that Jame and I agree with each other and disagree with you on this topic but I agree with you and disagree with Jame regarding how much faith there should be in the structure and plan for this rebuild. Who says there isn't any bipartisanship.
my faith in the structure/plan for this rebuild?

Not sure what that means...

I believe this was the right course to pursue (tear it down, collect futures, build through the draft, etc). I mean, I've been preaching to take this approach for a few years...

My faith that it will work? I don't operate in the "faith" based world... whether it will work or not is dependent on a myriad of things over the course of multiple years... yes, i believe it was the correct path to take, and i am comfortable with the few pieces at the top directing the ship on the path (for now).

like you, im not wrapped up too much in the day to day details, it doesn't matter that much right now...

i love your description of the season as an extended training camp.

i'll have have faith in the future when we have a #1 center, a shutdown center, and 2 shutdown pairs... lol
(and of course, the point is... the path we are on is the best possible path to acquire those needed assets)

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