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Talk Slowly and Use Small Words, its the Michael Del Zotto Thread

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Old
10-31-2013, 03:13 AM
  #201
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It seems the problems with MDZ are always mental - no doubting the physical stuff is there. This is the type of stuff he should be working on in the summer.

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10-31-2013, 07:51 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
No, he hasn't been. I can't speak to what you want or don't want, but there are clearly people here who refuse to give him credit for anything (see earlier in the thread, where someone threw out the idea that the scoring play MDZ started was nothing more than dumb luck) while also blaming him whether it was his fault or not (example--a couple of games ago, DZ was at the right point on the PP and, I think it was Richards tried a patented cutesy no look pass that went right into DZ's skates. Sure enough, there were immediately 6 or 7 posts in the GDT *****ing about Del Zotto's inability to keep the puck in the zone. It was a lousy pass into his skates, but there is a crew here who just waits to pounce on anything).

Take the Isles game as a prime example. In a 2 minute span, I saw McD (and this is not an attack on him. With Staal's current problems, I think it's pretty obvious that McD is our best defender) break his stick, fail to keep the puck in the zone on a PP, miss the net on a point shot, and have a shot go into the shins of an Isles player. If DZ had done ANY of those things, the board would have 54 threads about it for a week. McD did all four in the span of a couple minutes, and there was nothing. Many of the "glaring deficiencies" in DZ's game are things that ALL defensemen do--they've just become part of the "DZ sucks talking points" that obsess some posters on this board.

I've said it before--this board has a perverse need to hate one (or more) of our own players. It's often irrational, it leads to a narrative that rarely matches the reality, and (when that player DOES leave), it becomes plain as day that this board was incorrect about said player. At some point, we need to admit that when a player leaves here and "plays better" on another team, it's not because we're cursed--it's that we were stupid and were wrong about the player from the start.
Which the last part of this is irrelevant because it is not our job to evaluate talent and decide whether or not they are good for the team. You are basically saying that Glen Sather and Co. have the same mentality as posters here who construct convenient and biased narratives about players despite the evidence supporting the contrary. So, are Glen and his talent evaluators always wrong as well, or is it such that in some cases players just aren't a good fit in New York and find success elswhere? I'm sure getting traded from the team who drafted you with high expectations is also a big wake-up call and motivator to a player who wants to stick in the NHL and not be trade bait every season. Yes, they are probably wrong about talent at times and make poor trades and signings, but using a players post-Ranger success as proof the posters here are always wrong about players is skewed and not telling the whole story.

Del Zotto may very well find success in the NHL elsewhere, but unless you can with 100% certainty say he would find the same success with 29 other teams, then your point is an assumption from a small sample size. Players suck one place and thrive elsewhere in the NHL all the time and the amount of variables that go in to that are far more than you are considering.

As far as DZ versus McD, I think it is more than obvious why the guy who you yourself claims to be the Rangers #1 defensemen gets a longer leash than the #4. Also McD flubbing it up in the offensive zone is more palatable than DZ doing it since that's what Del Zotto is supposed to excell at. You are correct however in saying that at times, players in general not just DZ, are blamed for mistakes which started before the puck even reached them. This is not exclusive to whipping boys. People are just waiting for the next blunder because Michael has given fans no reason to suggest he will be more likely to succeed rather than fail so far this season.

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Old
10-31-2013, 08:16 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Which the last part of this is irrelevant because it is not our job to evaluate talent and decide whether or not they are good for the team. You are basically saying that Glen Sather and Co. have the same mentality as posters here who construct convenient and biased narratives about players despite the evidence supporting the contrary. So, are Glen and his talent evaluators always wrong as well, or is it such that in some cases players just aren't a good fit in New York and find success elswhere? I'm sure getting traded from the team who drafted you with high expectations is also a big wake-up call and motivator to a player who wants to stick in the NHL and not be trade bait every season. Yes, they are probably wrong about talent at times and make poor trades and signings, but using a players post-Ranger success as proof the posters here are always wrong about players is skewed and not telling the whole story.

Del Zotto may very well find success in the NHL elsewhere, but unless you can with 100% certainty say he would find the same success with 29 other teams, then your point is an assumption from a small sample size. Players suck one place and thrive elsewhere in the NHL all the time and the amount of variables that go in to that are far more than you are considering.

As far as DZ versus McD, I think it is more than obvious why the guy who you yourself claims to be the Rangers #1 defensemen gets a longer leash than the #4. Also McD flubbing it up in the offensive zone is more palatable than DZ doing it since that's what Del Zotto is supposed to excell at. You are correct however in saying that at times, players in general not just DZ, are blamed for mistakes which started before the puck even reached them. This is not exclusive to whipping boys. People are just waiting for the next blunder because Michael has given fans no reason to suggest he will be more likely to succeed rather than fail so far this season.
McD as well has the wheels to get back after he makes a mistake. DZ not so much.

A lot of DZ's problems this year come from playing on the right side. As has been mentioned the last day or so a d-man playing the wrong side needs to have wheels and DZ is an average skater at the NHL level at best.

And again MDZ needs to put up offensive stats. There's been very little if any improvement in that area since his rookie year. The Rangers have not had a very good pwp and the lack of a real presence at the point is a good part of the reason for that. All of our other current d-men last year and this have had a shot at the pwp and not one of them has really proven to be the guy either but this is supposedly the area that MDZ is expected to shine in and the others got their shots at it because MDZ hasn't taken his game to another level. For those who point out his one 40 point season--that season pales in comparison to the numbers other pwp point men playing for teams with good pwp's put up season after season.

It's not to say that Del Zotto is a bad player but he needs to play left side--he needs to start getting into the 50 (not 40) point range. His game has not been growing the last few years. It's pretty much plateaued. Maybe another team would lift it?--maybe not but it needs lifting.

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10-31-2013, 08:54 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Which the last part of this is irrelevant because it is not our job to evaluate talent and decide whether or not they are good for the team. You are basically saying that Glen Sather and Co. have the same mentality as posters here who construct convenient and biased narratives about players despite the evidence supporting the contrary. So, are Glen and his talent evaluators always wrong as well, or is it such that in some cases players just aren't a good fit in New York and find success elswhere? I'm sure getting traded from the team who drafted you with high expectations is also a big wake-up call and motivator to a player who wants to stick in the NHL and not be trade bait every season. Yes, they are probably wrong about talent at times and make poor trades and signings, but using a players post-Ranger success as proof the posters here are always wrong about players is skewed and not telling the whole story.
You are reading what I wrote in a way I didn't intend. I am not saying that Glen and co act like the fans when it comes to trades. In the Dubinsky example, I think that they had to give him up because he was a valuable piece that Columbus wanted. Given a choice in the matter, I think the team would have preferred to keep him. It was only on this board that people thought he was a throw in (or even more hilarious, there were some folks who thought he had negative value). I DO think that Sather USED to have the same mentality as the fans--but that was back in the late 90s and early aughts. Sather was perfectly willing to give up on youth too early in the name of patchwork solutions. The lockout and the salary cap were the best things to ever happen to this team--they forced him to reconsider that approach. Unfortunately, there are some fans (I'm guessing these are folks who weren't yet fans back in the dark ages) who think that we should go back to that way of running the team. It's dumb, and it's been proven to fail.

This has happened many a time, when people on these boards thought that a player had "plateaued" at a young age. The Marc Savard trade, the Tyutin trade, the Dubinsky trade, and the list goes on and on. Every now and again, a player leaves and proves the horde correct (Prucha, Dawes), but far more frequently, the young players we have given up on over the years end up doing pretty well for themselves.


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As far as DZ versus McD, I think it is more than obvious why the guy who you yourself claims to be the Rangers #1 defensemen gets a longer leash than the #4. Also McD flubbing it up in the offensive zone is more palatable than DZ doing it since that's what Del Zotto is supposed to excell at. You are correct however in saying that at times, players in general not just DZ, are blamed for mistakes which started before the puck even reached them. This is not exclusive to whipping boys. People are just waiting for the next blunder because Michael has given fans no reason to suggest he will be more likely to succeed rather than fail so far this season.
My issue is that there is a group of people *****ing about blunders where they don't exist. Case in point--the Richards pass into his skates. Literally there was nothing he could do there, but rather than criticize Richards for the lousy pass, there were a half dozen posters complaining about Del Zotto. They do it so frequently and so incessantly that the younger kids on here that don't know any better (ie- the ones just learning the game or the ones who haven't been around long enough to have seen Del Zotto on the left side) believe it to be a fact.

You want proof that people are looking for phantom things to complain about? Look at the post game thread. Michael Del Zotto led all defensemen in total minutes and in even strength minutes--in a shutout game. He had the primary assist on the game-winning goal (for the second game in a row). In the first couple of pages of the PGT, there are already multiple people calling him out. Why? Who knows. The griping in the GDT was because he took a penalty--his first all season, btw.

There are people who have dedicated their HFBoards lives to preaching the "Del Zotto sucks" playbook (I suppose they need a new hobby now that Dubinsky is in Columbus and making them look like idiots for their crusade against him), and they are determined to see things that way even when all objective reality says otherwise.

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Old
10-31-2013, 09:24 PM
  #205
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in a game we so clearly dominated it was disheartening to see MDZ play one of, if not the single worst game of his NHL career. He was....beyond brutal.

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10-31-2013, 09:27 PM
  #206
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He made one bad play yes, but he also made some good ones too. He made a good play to draw defenders towards him on the PP and then dish it to Brassard for the PP goal.

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10-31-2013, 10:49 PM
  #207
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in a game we so clearly dominated it was disheartening to see MDZ play one of, if not the single worst game of his NHL career. He was....beyond brutal.
If you think this was del ziti's worst game your gonna have a bad season lol.

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11-01-2013, 06:35 AM
  #208
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Carpiniello

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Sometimes I defend Michael Del Zotto, and I really thought last year that, at least, he had improved defensively even though he was giving them zilch offensively … but it’s tough to defend the way he’s playing in both ends so far this season. Yeesh. He has to be better.
http://rangers.lohudblogs.com/2013/1...s-in-review-5/

DZ does have points in back to back games.

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11-01-2013, 06:40 AM
  #209
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Another bad game, he is the weak link, terrible on the PP point

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11-01-2013, 08:07 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Carpiniello



http://rangers.lohudblogs.com/2013/1...s-in-review-5/

DZ does have points in back to back games.
See people want offense from the backend, but in today's game it always comes with risk.

That's why guys like Letang and Subban were considered bubble guys for Canada this past summer. The reason why the Rangers don't have that 60 point defensemen is because of the risks not taken by one or a couple.

DZ's blunders looked awful last night. He shouldn't be dangling when he isn't moving his feet, but at the same time he's recovered. A guy isn't going to feel confident with the puck to make plays unless they try, but with that said DZ needs to keep a couple of things in mind.

First is to not dangle unless he knows for sure he is ahead of the play and his legs are moving. Second is to not move past the top of the circles, unless he is leading the rush. The best D can create offense and chances from the top of the dots, and minimize the risk of an odd man rush going the other way. He's got to get this down.

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11-01-2013, 08:22 AM
  #211
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Hate to be a back seat coach but DZ needs to play on the left side. AV should stick Moore--the better skater on the right side. Whatever it's probably because they think Moore will not be quite as good either. The situation is not ideal when you look at the organization as a whole. Behind all that is Allen, McIlrath and Bickel.

Just saying we'll throw this left side guy over to the right side more often than not doesn't work. I don't know how this is going to work if we lose Girardi and Stralman-especially Girardi.

Back to Del Zotto--I think he's a good player but it's got to be in the right circumstances. This is just too much of an adjustment for him--not only is he maybe the worst skater on our D but he has the shortest reach and the highest panic threshold. I'm guessing he's also the weakest physically.

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11-01-2013, 08:33 AM
  #212
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really nuthin new here.

dude simply cannot skate. hes more sloth than hockey player. he may have the slowest first few steps on this team and thats sayin something cause we have some slugs out there. he always looks lost defensively. and if i see his classic half hearted "turn body and throw ass check against the guy with the puck along the boards" thing anymore im gonna lose it. mike doesnt hit to hurt, he hits and it hurts ME to watch it. sad.

all the talk about dmen taking longer and hes only 23 stuff needs to stop.

hes undersized. hes slow as mud. and not just slow, he lacks twitchy quickness. he just does stuff at such a lethargic pace, it makes him look slower. hes got a shot that scares no one. he handles the puck like hes blind. a guy whos supposedly such an offensive force needs to skate better and shoot it alot better.

he just doesnt do enough good stuff with the minutes he gets. hes awful as a defender and to me, he just looks like he lacks the skill required to be an offensive guy. with such slow feet, he cannot do much with the puck beyond turnovers and looking like a doofus.

hes rapidly morphing into rozy at his worst.

again, nuthin new here.

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11-01-2013, 08:35 AM
  #213
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None of the Rangers D have played well. Stralman has probably been their best defenseman. Staal is not playing well either. Some players are playing a little better. McDonagh,Girardi and Moore. None of them have been standouts. Staal was terrific in preseason. He scored a nice goal in Phoenix. He has struggled too.

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11-01-2013, 09:47 AM
  #214
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i think the d, as a whole, started very poorly this season. lately theres been less running around and missed assignments. the forwards skating better and helping more has made a difference recently. the last 2 games the overall d has been much better.

stralman, mcd and moore in that order have been the most solid so far.

im wanting more from staal and girardi

im not expecting much from del zotto.

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11-01-2013, 09:51 AM
  #215
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Team defense as a whole was awful at the start of the season.

Defensemen. Supporting forwards. Goaltending.

MDZ has still managed to stand out as being particularly tough to watch.

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11-01-2013, 03:12 PM
  #216
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Del Zotto strikes me as a guy who will be good, but he really needs a change of scenery. For some reason, it just hasn't all clicked for him here, and with John Moore looking excellent, he's expendable.

Would love to see an apple for oranges kind of swap. Maybe Ottawa for one of their young forwards?

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11-01-2013, 05:39 PM
  #217
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Del Zotto strikes me as a guy who will be good, but he really needs a change of scenery. For some reason, it just hasn't all clicked for him here, and with John Moore looking excellent, he's expendable.

Would love to see an apple for oranges kind of swap. Maybe Ottawa for one of their young forwards?
Pretty much agreed with all of this.

The one caveat being, he has looked much, much better whenever he's put on the left side. Should they ever move another LD (for example, the oft-proposed Staal to Carolina deal), it becomes less imperative to trade him. Something has to give this year, however - one way or another.

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11-01-2013, 06:00 PM
  #218
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Quite frankly being paired with John Moore, who is simply just not a good defenseman, is part of this.

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11-01-2013, 06:25 PM
  #219
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Quite frankly being paired with John Moore, who is simply just not a good defenseman, is part of this.
If Moore is not a good defenseman, that what does that make DZ?

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11-01-2013, 06:42 PM
  #220
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If Moore is not a good defenseman, that what does that make DZ?
DZ was horrible last night, and has had some brutal games this season, but he is still much better then Moore.

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11-01-2013, 06:47 PM
  #221
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DZ was horrible last night, and has had some brutal games this season, but he is still much better then Moore.
Don't personally agree with that, but to each their own.

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11-12-2013, 02:35 AM
  #222
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I had a thought, its a weird one but seeing as how it worked out in SJ with Burns. How well suited would MDZ be on the wing?

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11-12-2013, 03:02 AM
  #223
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I had a thought, its a weird one but seeing as how it worked out in SJ with Burns. How well suited would MDZ be on the wing?
Biggest difference is that Burns played forward his entire life and was moved to D when he was drafted by the Wild. Same thing with Gilroy, who was a winger during a lot of his early playing but converted to D when he got to college (pretty sure, might have been while he was at Apple Core...) Del Zotto always played D, and while he always put up pretty wild numbers in juniors he was also helped by playing with guys like Tavares, Stamkos, Hodgson, etc. while he was young. Sure as a top-line defenseman playing with those forwards your numbers can get inflated a bit.

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11-12-2013, 04:12 AM
  #224
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I had a thought, its a weird one but seeing as how it worked out in SJ with Burns. How well suited would MDZ be on the wing?
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Originally Posted by petejudge View Post
Biggest difference is that Burns played forward his entire life and was moved to D when he was drafted by the Wild. Same thing with Gilroy, who was a winger during a lot of his early playing but converted to D when he got to college (pretty sure, might have been while he was at Apple Core...) Del Zotto always played D, and while he always put up pretty wild numbers in juniors he was also helped by playing with guys like Tavares, Stamkos, Hodgson, etc. while he was young. Sure as a top-line defenseman playing with those forwards your numbers can get inflated a bit.
I've talked about this before, but I agree with the concerns that he's never played forward before.

But looking at his offensive game, he sure looks like a forward. Aside from the odd home-run pass he doesn't generate much from the back end and he is pretty awful on the offensive blue line. But he is excellent on the rush when he plays like a forward and he has a good wrist shot.

So, I'd say his skillset is probably more suited to forward than defenceman - unlike say Erik Karlsson, who is more suited as a defenceman despite his offensive talent because he needs to have the puck a lot and his breakout game is one of his bigger strengths - but considering that he has never played the position it is probably too late to switch. Although it is likely easier to shift from D to F than the other way around.

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11-12-2013, 10:32 AM
  #225
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I've talked about this before, but I agree with the concerns that he's never played forward before.

But looking at his offensive game, he sure looks like a forward. Aside from the odd home-run pass he doesn't generate much from the back end and he is pretty awful on the offensive blue line. But he is excellent on the rush when he plays like a forward and he has a good wrist shot.

So, I'd say his skillset is probably more suited to forward than defenceman - unlike say Erik Karlsson, who is more suited as a defenceman despite his offensive talent because he needs to have the puck a lot and his breakout game is one of his bigger strengths - but considering that he has never played the position it is probably too late to switch. Although it is likely easier to shift from D to F than the other way around.
Where do you put DZ in the lineup if you switch him? Gilroy made sense when Torts would use him as a forward because you can easily slot him on the 4th line. I guess I'd be much happier with DZ than say...Pyatt on that 4th line wing, but would he play that role well? I could see it working out but could also DEFINITELY see it blowing up.

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