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Is this the deepest Rangers team we've had post-lockout?

View Poll Results: Is this the deepest Rangers team post-lockout?
Yes 34 53.13%
No 30 46.88%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-10-2013, 06:01 PM
  #51
SnowblindNYR
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Originally Posted by Jabroni View Post
I think success and depth go hand in hand.

Of your team is successful and the players have chemistry up and down the lineup, then I think that team is deep.

I do think this team is deep, but I'll give the upper hand to the 11-12 team for now based on their results, as they executed while we are only 16 games into this season.

By the end of the season, I hope this team ends up showing otherwise.
Eh, a top heavy team with superstars can be more successful than a deep team a lot of only good players. That said that team was deeper in real life than on paper. I remember a month or so when our top players weren't scoring our role players were. That said, I don't think that was sustainable. That's one of the reasons that was a magical year that IMO would not have been duplicated.

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11-10-2013, 06:06 PM
  #52
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That depends alot on Zuccarello and Kreider. They've been excellent but it's worth noting how far above their recent production has been over their normal production.

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11-10-2013, 06:14 PM
  #53
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Deep? Yeah, if you mean loaded with mid level talent and redundancies, lacking any elite forwards or elite prospects. Then yup, we're totally deep.

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11-10-2013, 06:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
That depends alot on Zuccarello and Kreider. They've been excellent but it's worth noting how far above their recent production has been over their normal production.
I don't think either Zucc or Kreider played enough in the NHL to have "normal production". Especially Kreider.

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11-10-2013, 06:52 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
Deep? Yeah, if you mean loaded with mid level talent and redundancies, lacking any elite forwards or elite prospects. Then yup, we're totally deep.
This team isn't any more loaded with mid level talent than the 11-12 team everyone keeps going on and about.

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11-10-2013, 06:57 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
I don't think either Zucc or Kreider played enough in the NHL to have "normal production". Especially Kreider.
Yet, even so, I bet they count towards this historic depth you keep going on and on about

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11-12-2013, 12:21 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yet, even so, I bet they count towards this historic depth you keep going on and on about
Historic depth? Giddy up.

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11-12-2013, 07:20 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Richards is on pace for 67. Stepan 62. Callahan 65. Hagelin 84 (that number is way scewed bcuz there is no chance he keeps up this pace). Kreider 57.

Now players like Kreider will probably not keep up his pace. But Callahan, Stephan and Richards (baring injury) should.
Thank you for that. Some people obviously need to work on their math skills.

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The only way that you can make the mistake that this year's team is deeper than the 11-12 team is if you buy into the philosophy that your 3rd line needs to be offensively productive -- thats fine, 3rd lines can be a whole host of things -- the issue is that the current 3rd line is not all that productive. Guys like Pyatt, Miller, Pouliot? These are nothing players.

Say what you want about that "2 4th lines" stuff, but the 6 guys from the '11-12 team had a mandate, on a defensive team, to grind and wear the opposition down. They did a job - they contributed to the cause. Let me know when some of our 3rd liners start putting up points and then maybe we can have this conversation.
There are some obvious differences though that make this team at least as deep. The 5-6 pairing of Del Zotto and Moore. The 7th guy Falk is also a better player than the 6th guy Bickel on the 11-12 team. Aaron Johnson is a better fill in emergency guy on D than we've had in several years and McIlrath seems to be inching closer. I also think that Talbot today might be a better backup than Biron two years ago.

That being said the Boyle, Prust, Fedetenko line of 11-12 contributed decently on the score sheet--played a gritty game and everyone of them was a very good penalty killer. The Rangers lost a lot of edge when Prust left. So far this year we still have some questions about Brassard, Pouliot, Dominic Moore, Miller and Pyatt and how they're going to fit in and contribute more. The other forwards seemed to have found their niche. I'm willing to give Brassard (coming off a very good playoff performance) and Miller a bit more leeway than the other 3. Moore might settle in when he comes back. The team was just climbing out of its dysfunction when he got hurt. Pouliot is talented but really needs to get his head out of his ass. Pyatt--not sure what the Rangers see in him. I know I don't see it.

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11-12-2013, 08:31 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Now let me preface this by saying, I know we're only 8-8 and started the season awfully (though that's a different team than what we have now), however when Nash comes back is this the deepest team we've had post lockout? Here are a couple of disclaimers:

1) The 11-12 team finished #1 in the east and went to the ECF. So this is a question about the "deepest" not best. Hell, not even the most talented team because you can argue that a less deep team like the Jagr teams were more talented because this team has no Jagr.

2) I'm not comparing this team to any other team in the league. I realize Chicago is deeper and more talented, Pittsburgh is more talented. San Jose is probably deeper. Just compared to the Rangers post-lockout.

When Nash and Moore get back, if no one gets injured I contend that our weakest forward is Pouliot on the 3rd line, who is an average 3rd liner. So even our weakest forward is IMO not worse than average. We finally can have a 4th line made up of all legit NHLers, no Orrs, Brashears, and Hollwegs. IMO, all of Moore, Boyle, and Dorsett are solid 4th liners. I think pretty much all of our forwards are good (albeit not great) players. Defensively DZ is probably the weakest link. No matter how much you want to get on him, when Del Zotto is your weakest link on defense I think that's a pretty deep defense. Del Zotto is not a bad player by any means, even though he has some poor games.
I believe it is the deepest, but I don't think that 11-12 should be the bar to compare it to.

That team played a system and style it was built for. They weren't deep by any stretch. they were good at what they did, but deep? I wouldn't use that term to describe the 11-12 team.

As long as this team can continue to get scoring from the Dorsett's and Brassard's and occassionally from Boyle and Pouliot we will be the deepest team the Rangers have had since 97

11-12 is not even top 5 since 97

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11-12-2013, 08:45 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I believe it is the deepest, but I don't think that 11-12 should be the bar to compare it to.

That team played a system and style it was built for. They weren't deep by any stretch. they were good at what they did, but deep? I wouldn't use that term to describe the 11-12 team.

As long as this team can continue to get scoring from the Dorsett's and Brassard's and occassionally from Boyle and Pouliot we will be the deepest team the Rangers have had since 97

11-12 is not even top 5 since 97
I'd really enjoy hearing what your explanation of depth is to say such a thing. Personally, clear cut roles and responsibilities and the ability to execute them is a huge part of depth. That '11-12 team was all pulling in the same direction -- I'd love to know 5 teams that had more depth since '97. Those star studded teams that were over the hill and tragically flawed when it came to roles? (Bobby Holik, 1st line center anyone?). Thats not depth. Thats a disaster.

As for this year's team, its worth a conversation. The D is deeper because of John Moore. At first glance, the forwards might seem deeper just by sheer number, but I keep coming back to executing a role within a team philosophy. Benoit Pouliot, Taylor Pyatt, and even JT Miller - sure, they can take an NHL shift, but are they a net positive to the team right now?

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11-12-2013, 08:50 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yet, even so, I bet they count towards this historic depth you keep going on and on about
I don't know if you misread what I said or are just trying to make me look bad (going by your posting history I would bet the latter) but "historic depth" doesn't mean "one of the best in history". It means that going by the history of the players the Rangers have a lot of good (not great) players. Kreider and Zucc I'm going by their skill set and chemistry though you're right they haven't proven anything yet.

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11-12-2013, 09:02 AM
  #62
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I don't think it's the deepest, but it's nice to see some players finally living up to their potential. The biggest issue with this team has always been the fact that, even with great depth, it was never firing on all cylinders.

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11-12-2013, 09:03 AM
  #63
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I don't know about deepest. But you could say it's the team with most upside.

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11-12-2013, 09:06 AM
  #64
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I don't know about deepest. But you could say it's the team with most upside.
Thats fair.

I'd like to see what this team could do if it grew together for a couple of years. Too bad 75% of the team is without a contract for next season. Oops.

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11-12-2013, 09:09 AM
  #65
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People like to discount things based on sample size, and I understand the argument. But it's important to remember that the playoffs are a small sample size. At the very most, a team will play 28 games.

If Brassard only scores .5 points per game during the regular season but then gets hot in the playoffs and scores a PPG like he did last year, I'll gladly take it. If Nash only puts up 35 points because he missed half the year with a concussion, but then plays well in the playoffs, I'll gladly take it.

Right now, as a team, we have scored 19 goals in our last 5 games. Yes, that is a small sample size, but that could be 1 round of the playoffs. And that's without Nash and without Brassard contributing much. I think we need Pouliot to step up or we need to find a better option for the 3rd line to get some more goals out of our bottom 6, but regardless, we have been scoring goals lately. I don't care who scores them as long as they play for the Rangers. I'd be just fine with 6 players with 50+ points rather than 2 players with 70+ and everyone else under 40.

All that being said, the real depth of this team won't be known until the playoffs. Scoring goals is always harder in the playoffs. That's when we need those 3rd and 4th line guys to step up and contribute.

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11-12-2013, 09:11 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I don't think it's the deepest, but it's nice to see some players finally living up to their potential. The biggest issue with this team has always been the fact that, even with great depth, it was never firing on all cylinders.
Agreed, I just hope they keep it up because we have seen players fizzle out in the second half in the past. As good as Richards has been, I'm not convinced he will be able to maintain his play over the entire season.

I think the defense is capable of providing more offense than they have shown. Obviously McDonagh has been great, but Staal, Girardi, Stralman, and Moore have underperformed in that area. Del Zotto is starting to pick it up so that's a good sign.

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11-12-2013, 09:14 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
People like to discount things based on sample size, and I understand the argument. But it's important to remember that the playoffs are a small sample size. At the very most, a team will play 28 games.

If Brassard only scores .5 points per game during the regular season but then gets hot in the playoffs and scores a PPG like he did last year, I'll gladly take it. If Nash only puts up 35 points because he missed half the year with a concussion, but then plays well in the playoffs, I'll gladly take it.

Right now, as a team, we have scored 19 goals in our last 5 games. Yes, that is a small sample size, but that could be 1 round of the playoffs. And that's without Nash and without Brassard contributing much. I think we need Pouliot to step up or we need to find a better option for the 3rd line to get some more goals out of our bottom 6, but regardless, we have been scoring goals lately. I don't care who scores them as long as they play for the Rangers. I'd be just fine with 6 players with 50+ points rather than 2 players with 70+ and everyone else under 40.

All that being said, the real depth of this team won't be known until the playoffs. Scoring goals is always harder in the playoffs. That's when we need those 3rd and 4th line guys to step up and contribute.
I'm not as impressed with the 19 goals in 5 games as I am with the way they've been playing. The Rangers seem to always have a stint usually early in the season at home against weaker opponents when they score a bunch of goals in bunches (all factors are the same now). However I don't remember the last time a Rangers team passed this well, controlled the puck and rushed up the ice this consistently. Even in the Jagr years, it was just the Jagr line. Now they have 2 lines. When Nash gets back I'm hoping for 2 lines. The Rangers have looked like a fun team to watch.

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11-12-2013, 09:32 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
I'm not as impressed with the 19 goals in 5 games as I am with the way they've been playing. The Rangers seem to always have a stint usually early in the season at home against weaker opponents when they score a bunch of goals in bunches (all factors are the same now). However I don't remember the last time a Rangers team passed this well, controlled the puck and rushed up the ice this consistently. Even in the Jagr years, it was just the Jagr line. Now they have 2 lines. When Nash gets back I'm hoping for 2 lines. The Rangers have looked like a fun team to watch.
I think we've scored more goals off the rush already this year than we did in the last 2 years.

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11-12-2013, 09:41 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Thank you for that. Some people obviously need to work on their math skills.



There are some obvious differences though that make this team at least as deep. The 5-6 pairing of Del Zotto and Moore. The 7th guy Falk is also a better player than the 6th guy Bickel on the 11-12 team. Aaron Johnson is a better fill in emergency guy on D than we've had in several years and McIlrath seems to be inching closer. I also think that Talbot today might be a better backup than Biron two years ago.

That being said the Boyle, Prust, Fedetenko line of 11-12 contributed decently on the score sheet--played a gritty game and everyone of them was a very good penalty killer. The Rangers lost a lot of edge when Prust left. So far this year we still have some questions about Brassard, Pouliot, Dominic Moore, Miller and Pyatt and how they're going to fit in and contribute more. The other forwards seemed to have found their niche. I'm willing to give Brassard (coming off a very good playoff performance) and Miller a bit more leeway than the other 3. Moore might settle in when he comes back. The team was just climbing out of its dysfunction when he got hurt. Pouliot is talented but really needs to get his head out of his ass. Pyatt--not sure what the Rangers see in him. I know I don't see it.
I completely agree with all of the above. Honestly, I'm not sure how you could argue any other team was deeper (unless you have an axe to grind).

It looks like both Nash and Moore will be back soon. That means this team fields:

Kreider-Stepan-Zuccarello
Hagelin-Richards-Callahan
Pouliot-Brassard-Nash
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett
(Miller, Pyatt)

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Stralman
Moore-Del Zotto
(Falk)

Lundqvist
Talbot

I know everyone loved our grinders in 11-12, but that is one hell of a fourth line - and there's no question that the top 6 is better as are the bottom pair, Del Zotto's issues on the right side notwithstanding. You've got Rick Nash (or Callahan) on the third line for crying out loud. And that's with Kristo, Lindberg, Fast, Hrivik, Powe, Asham as forwards and Johnson, Allen, McIlrath as defensemen in the minors. Even taking into account injuries, you've got enough extras and kids to keep the team as competitive as they have been over the last 12 games or so (as evidenced by the fact that they didn't have Nash that whole time). Clearly the deepest we've been.

Furthermore, that's without major contributions from Brassard, Pouliot or Miller as of yet. I think we'll see a lot more out of Brassard once Nash gets back and I'm also hopefully that Miller's most recent game will be the start of something good, which eventually will force Pouliot out of the lineup. (Pouliot improving... eh, I'm a lot less optimistic about that.)

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11-12-2013, 09:47 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Brassard vs. Anisimov is probably too close to call.

I know Im one of the few here that doesnt think Brassard is anything special, and is in that 2/3rd line issue where he doesnt have the skill to be a 2, but doesnt have size to be a good 3.

Id much rather have Boyle as the #3 than Brassard.

As for points on the season, havent even played 20 games, will have to discuss again towards the end of the year
You have made some weak points, mostly around our inability to have one player get to 50 points this year. Barring injuries, that's just going to be wrong. However, Brian Boyle is not a 3rd line center. Therefore, he cannot be better at that role than Brassard who is a talented player. Boyle is better in a pure checking (7 - 9 minutes a night) role but a 3rd line center must play more than that. He is a 4th line center; otherwise you have a significant weakness on your team. And around we go.

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11-12-2013, 09:51 AM
  #71
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You have made some weak points, mostly around our inability to have one player get to 50 points this year. Barring injuries, that's just going to be wrong. However, Brian Boyle is not a 3rd line center. Therefore, he cannot be better at that role than Brassard who is a talented player. Boyle is better in a pure checking (7 - 9 minutes a night) role but a 3rd line center must play more than that. He is a 4th line center; otherwise you have a significant weakness on your team. And around we go.
You are so close-minded when it comes to the myriad of options when it comes to what a 3rd line can be, that it makes you impossible to deal with -- and thats not even getting into your unabashed hatred for Brian Boyle in particular.

The fate of the 3rd line is still up in the air. Will it be a shutdown line or an offensive producer? Derek Brassard has not produced much offense at all, but the notion that he might at some point outweighs Brian Boyle being a safe shut down option, according to your backwards and limited thinking.

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11-12-2013, 09:51 AM
  #72
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And in response from me, all you will get is a 'maybe'.

You cant predict seasons performance off 16 games. Just cant.
But yet you did. That is the basic fact underlying this back and forth. You predicted noone would get to 50. Yikes.

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11-12-2013, 09:54 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Jabroni View Post
On paper and based on what we've seen, I can't say that this team's forwards are deeper than the 11-12 forwards.

Again, it's only been a handful of games, but when I compare the results from 11-12 to what I have seen as of now, I think we had better depth at forward in 11-12.

That team had a ton of chemistry and I believe that chemistry is a significant factor when determining depth. If everyone were playing like mercenaries, I'd consider our depth to be much worse since the cohesion wouldn't be there.
If you want to compare apples to apples that team started slowly and at this point in the season was still developing chemistry. Then Boyle scored on every shot he took for two months and created the illusion of depth. By mid January, the team had two 4th lines and hunkered down into a defensive shell for the rest of the year. That team was good but not particularly deep also evidenced by Torts reluctance to play 6 D in the playoffs.

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11-12-2013, 10:24 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You are so close-minded when it comes to the myriad of options when it comes to what a 3rd line can be, that it makes you impossible to deal with -- and thats not even getting into your unabashed hatred for Brian Boyle in particular.

The fate of the 3rd line is still up in the air. Will it be a shutdown line or an offensive producer? Derek Brassard has not produced much offense at all, but the notion that he might at some point outweighs Brian Boyle being a safe shut down option, according to your backwards and limited thinking.
First I like Brian Boyle; slotted properly. Even a third line that is tasked to shut down another team's top players has to be capable of some offense and since often they will not be up against the other team's top players (because we are on the road or coming off a penalty kill), they must be more than pure defense. I can live with a 4th line that is energy only and has no responsibility to score. I cannot live with a 3rd line in that mold. And any line with BB on it cannot be counted on to score.

The other night BB was on the ice for one of the prettier goals this organization has scored in years. You know why the play worked? He didn't participate. And then he took a dumb penalty that lead to the tying goal. All I read about was how he had the puck on the side boards and gave it to Dorsett behind the net who then made a fantastic effort play to score.

At this point there's plenty of hype just to counter to naysayers that is completely unwarranted. But once again thanks for the insults; ITG.

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11-12-2013, 11:17 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
First I like Brian Boyle; slotted properly. Even a third line that is tasked to shut down another team's top players has to be capable of some offense and since often they will not be up against the other team's top players (because we are on the road or coming off a penalty kill), they must be more than pure defense. I can live with a 4th line that is energy only and has no responsibility to score. I cannot live with a 3rd line in that mold. And any line with BB on it cannot be counted on to score.

The other night BB was on the ice for one of the prettier goals this organization has scored in years. You know why the play worked? He didn't participate. And then he took a dumb penalty that lead to the tying goal. All I read about was how he had the puck on the side boards and gave it to Dorsett behind the net who then made a fantastic effort play to score.

At this point there's plenty of hype just to counter to naysayers that is completely unwarranted. But once again thanks for the insults; ITG.
Wanting a 3rd line that can provide offense is great. We all want that. The reality of the roster is an entirely different thing. Brassard? Pouliot? These guys have been duds when slotted on the 3rd line. They provide nothing at all for this team in terms of consistent offense, or anything else for that matter. You thinking they might be able to provide offense flies in the face of reality. Its what fuels this "anyone but Boyle" mentality of yours.

Last season, you were advocating slotting Jeff Halpern above Boyle because he scored 40 points a decade ago. How'd that gemstone of a thought work out? Halpern was waived a couple of weeks later.

If Brassard can consistently contribute offensively from the 3rd line - enough to mask his defensive shortcomings, I'll agree with you. Until then, its just a viewpoint born out of a fallacy.

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