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Old
11-12-2013, 04:43 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Have to disagree. I think Z's consistency is literally what's keeping him at a point per game pace. Because he's not the fastest guy(sluggish is the right word, but that's because he actually is slow, not that he isn't trying), not the biggest guy, not the most skilled guy on any given night. Points in his last five games, points in 13 of 18 games on the season. He doesn't have four point nights often like some of the more dynamic offensive threats in the league, who can then go scoreless in a couple of games and still keep their paces.


27th highest cap hit among forwards in the league. 7th in scoring. Most guys around him in the scoring race would be labeled offense only players, Z is a consistent top10-15 two-way forward. We have our best two forwards on bargain deals(Pavel's new one is maybe "fair enough") and should be thankful they're outproducing their deals on a yearly basis. We've just come to expect it. I think that makes Z/both of them A+ any time they're hovering around point per game and keep steady possession stats(or +/- for the dinosaurs).
I don't understand how people can say he is slow. He doesn't have blazing speed but is far from slow.
Here is the scouting report from the hockey news on his assets
"Boasts excellent playmaking ability, great hands and an uncanny way of getting into openings. Great with the puck when under pressure, his hockey sense and defensive acumen are off the charts. An excellent skater, he can line up either at center or wing. A determined player"
And questioning his effort is even more puzzling to me.
He is only 3 points from the league lead in scoring. Datsyuk and Zetterberg could be 1 and 2 in the league if they were less responsible defensively and took more chances to try to score although the team's GAA would be higher then.

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Old
11-12-2013, 04:49 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Johnz96 View Post
I don't understand how people can say he is slow. He doesn't have blazing speed but is far from slow.
Here is the scouting report from the hockey news on his assets
"Boasts excellent playmaking ability, great hands and an uncanny way of getting into openings. Great with the puck when under pressure, his hockey sense and defensive acumen are off the charts. An excellent skater, he can line up either at center or wing. A determined player"
And questioning his effort is even more puzzling to me.
Skating comes down to more than just speed. His edgework and balance is still tops, but the speed is not due to his groins. He can't split D's like he could 4-5 years ago. His speed is very average, likely below average for guys who are 6" in the league.

Determination part agree, won't find many players working as hard in October as May.

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11-12-2013, 05:33 AM
  #28
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Z doesnt have blazing speed, but he isnt slow. Lower body strenght and balance what his good at though, it almost doesnt matter if players catch up on him or not, he'll still hard strip the puck from.

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11-12-2013, 10:09 AM
  #29
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can't agree with that, even with players of similar size. crosby is better.
Agree to disagree Not to take anything away from Crosby, he's up there, but I don't think he's on Zetterberg's level.


Quote:
i agree that his production has been absolutely amazing.

that is also somewhat worrying. bc players don't generally become better players at even strength in their mid30s; and zetterberg is on pace to have his best season 5on5. almost twice more points per ice than what he produced last year. playing with dats helps for sure but there is going to be a drop imo.
He's due for some regression, I agree. Hopefully it's not too much though. I honestly don't expect it to be, because as a special player, Zetterberg is an exception. I would say the same thing about Dats if we were talking about him.


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Originally Posted by drw02 View Post
His production is good as in he's producing at the level he's expected to. I don't think he's been amazing though.
I would say he is easily producing at a level that is higher than expectations, even playing with Dats. 10 goals in 18 games is a 46-goal pace over 82 games. His point pace is 92. I doubt that's what the Wings expect out of him. Now again, I think he's due for some regression, but we're talking about what he's done to this point.


Quote:
Not trying to hate on the guy, he is a great player, I just don't think his effort has been consistent from game to game and even period to period. A little sluggish at times for my liking.
I find no fault with his effort. I actually partly agree that he looks "sluggish" at times. But he's always been that way. So has Datsyuk, frankly, though to a slightly lesser extent. Part of it is that those players have never been very fast skaters, and part of it is both are very smart players; they know when they need to turn on the jets and when they don't, or when it won't be any benefit if they do. They know when to "save it" and when to "spend it." All the great players do. I have not once this season seen Zetterberg give up on a play that was going to result in a scoring chance, for either team (granted, I have missed 3 or 4 games).


Last edited by jaster: 11-12-2013 at 10:16 AM.
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11-12-2013, 10:13 AM
  #30
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Z is slow as molasses. Thankfully his speed isn't a big part of his style.

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11-12-2013, 11:52 AM
  #31
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Datsyuk should get an A+ just for resigning with us. If this was indeed his last year with the Wings, we would be getting used to the bottom of the league.

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11-12-2013, 12:00 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
Z is slow as molasses. Thankfully his speed isn't a big part of his style.
Not really, Z has speed when he needs it. He just doesn't need to it to be elite.

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11-12-2013, 12:32 PM
  #33
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Quincey is slow as molasses, Z is not.

Hank just doesn't possess elite speed.

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11-12-2013, 03:15 PM
  #34
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Zetterberg is consistently the smartest player on the ice. He's the guy who never fails to make the smart hockey play. And that kind of consistency is tough to put into a highlight reel, but over 82 games every year, it's truly remarkable to watch.

He's like Lidstrom in that respect. It's a subtle, but oh so effective.

We're really lucky to get him and Datsyuk on the same team. Two guys who are head and shoulders above most in hockey IQ. Only Betuzzi and Alfredsson look like they can keep up. Shame Bert is old, he would have had a field day with these two during his prime.

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11-12-2013, 03:27 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Zetterberg is consistently the smartest player on the ice. He's the guy who never fails to make the smart hockey play. And that kind of consistency is tough to put into a highlight reel, but over 82 games every year, it's truly remarkable to watch.

He's like Lidstrom in that respect. It's a subtle, but oh so effective.

We're really lucky to get him and Datsyuk on the same team. Two guys who are head and shoulders above most in hockey IQ. Only Betuzzi and Alfredsson look like they can keep up. Shame Bert is old, he would have had a field day with these two during his prime.
You nailed it like nail in Nail Yakopov's coffin!

I still think that of course, Zeta and Dats had that natural talent. But because they played so many years with other superstar leaders/perfectionists like Yzerman, Lidström, Shanahan, Hull, Chelios and learned from them, they became maybe the smartest forwards ever to play in hockey.

And that is the Legacy I want them to teach our next generation. Lead by example, that our next generation could be even near as smart as they have become.

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11-12-2013, 05:15 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Zetterberg is consistently the smartest player on the ice. He's the guy who never fails to make the smart hockey play. And that kind of consistency is tough to put into a highlight reel, but over 82 games every year, it's truly remarkable to watch.

He's like Lidstrom in that respect. It's a subtle, but oh so effective.
All true. It's largely why Gretzky called Zetterberg the best Swedish player to ever play in the NHL, I suspect. And it's why Zetterberg is largely under-rated (again, similar to how Lidstrom was amongst many fans).

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11-13-2013, 03:27 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Zetterberg is consistently the smartest player on the ice. He's the guy who never fails to make the smart hockey play. And that kind of consistency is tough to put into a highlight reel, but over 82 games every year, it's truly remarkable to watch.

He's like Lidstrom in that respect. It's a subtle, but oh so effective.

We're really lucky to get him and Datsyuk on the same team. Two guys who are head and shoulders above most in hockey IQ. Only Betuzzi and Alfredsson look like they can keep up. Shame Bert is old, he would have had a field day with these two during his prime.
100%
Todd would be a 40-50 goal-scoring power forward.

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Old
11-16-2013, 01:16 PM
  #38
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Outside of grading our guys, I'm wondering about everyone's impressions of the East so far. This is easily the most I've seen of Eastern teams in awhile, and it's just not impressive to me. It seems to lack structure, and teams resort to just throwing guys over the boards and telling them to go out and play.

We haven't played well at all, and I have to think that if we were going against teams like Chicago and St. Louis more often that we would be getting hammered.

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11-16-2013, 01:55 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Zetterberg is consistently the smartest player on the ice. He's the guy who never fails to make the smart hockey play. And that kind of consistency is tough to put into a highlight reel, but over 82 games every year, it's truly remarkable to watch.

He's like Lidstrom in that respect. It's a subtle, but oh so effective.

We're really lucky to get him and Datsyuk on the same team. Two guys who are head and shoulders above most in hockey IQ. Only Betuzzi and Alfredsson look like they can keep up. Shame Bert is old, he would have had a field day with these two during his prime.
Hockey IQ > nearly everything else. You don't have to be huge, you don't have to be speedy, you just need to be really really smart. That's why I dislike us carrying so many "dumb" hockey players. It's just not that useful.

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Old
11-23-2013, 11:53 PM
  #40
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I wanted to wait a little longer, but here mine are (aka the right ones)

Howard C-
Gustavsson B
Kronwall B
Ericsson B
DeKeyser A
Kindl B+
Quincey D
Lashoff C+
Smith C-
Datsyuk A-
Zetterberg A
Bertuzzi B
Weiss D
Alfredsson C+
Franzen C+
Helm A
Abdelkader B+
Tatar B
Cleary E
Samuelsson C+
Miller B-
Andersson C

The rest either haven't played enough or I forgot.

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Old
11-24-2013, 12:35 AM
  #41
InjuredChoker
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I wanted to wait a little longer, but here mine are (aka the right ones)
are those relative to expectations or just performance?

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11-24-2013, 12:37 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by sully61 View Post
I wanted to wait a little longer, but here mine are (aka the right ones)

Howard C-
Gustavsson B
Kronwall B
Ericsson B
DeKeyser A
Kindl B+
Quincey D
Lashoff C+
Smith C-
Datsyuk A-
Zetterberg A
Bertuzzi B
Weiss D
Alfredsson C+
Franzen C+
Helm A
Abdelkader B+
Tatar B
Cleary E
Samuelsson C+
Miller B-
Andersson C

The rest either haven't played enough or I forgot.
The bolded portions do not compute. KFQ deserves a F, scratch that a F-, no wait a Z- he's been soo bad I had to invent a grade to describe how bad he is.

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Old
12-24-2013, 02:17 PM
  #43
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Grade The Players

Just noticed this in the Lightning forum, and I thought this would be interesting with the break, and hitting the halfway area. A lot of players up for grading here. Can even do Grand Rapids players too.

Here's a couple of mine:

Pavel Datsyuk: B+ - Has battled injuries, but really hasn't been up there as past years. Has been invisible and has went through more struggles than I've ever watched him here.
Henrik Zetterberg: A - Best start or so since the 08? season. Was truly fantastic and consistent before the back injury. Played with different linemates and performed well. Has really outplayed Dats this season, which is truly shocking to me.
Daniel Alfredsson: B+ - Got what we asked for. Producing at a high rate, higher than last season, and has been a real leader. Bit hot and cold but has been great. Even strength play needs to pick up a bit though.
Johan Franzen: A- - Started off slow but was creating. Has played different roles, and went through his hot stretch early which gives him a big boost. Was running a line and was actually the man for a little bit. Best Mule in years.
Stephen Weiss: D- - Battled through injuries, new system, and hasn't done much at all. He was a liability earlier in the season, and really brought down the play of his linemates. Should be much better.
Gustav Nyquist: B+ - Hasn't played too much but I'll factor in his hot start in Grand Rapids. Has been secondary scoring, and looks like a top six player. Has more points than last season, and has continued to improve his defensive game.
Darren Helm: A- - Best Darren Helm I've ever watched. Still battling injuries, which hurts him here (would have been an A) but the player I watched looks like a stud. Creating chances, bigger role, and just doing everything.
Dan Cleary: C - I'm a Cleary fan, probably the only one. I didn't want to believe he was totally shot, but it looks that way. Sucks too because he did an excellent job in the playoffs. Has fit in on a defensive fourth line though. I thought he could put up 25-30 points this season.
Tomas Tatar: B/B+ - Hitting a struggle right now, but has exceeded my expectations. Has been creating with less than offensive players, and producing at a near .50 PPG rate. Defensive game is still really rough, but it's a working progress. Doing less offensively, which is actually better ( was doing too much for a bit there).
Todd Bertuzzi: B - Doing better than I thought, but still can't get higher than a B. Has done well on the PP and has continued his chemistry with Dats. Hopefully he can stay healthy and have a big second half.
Joakim Andersson: B- Producing at a similar offensive rate, has done well on the third line, though on the fourth line he kind of looks exposed at times. Has done an excellent job on the PK, and again, has been finding some offense.
Drew Miller: B+ - Best season as a Red Wing. Leader of the top 7 or so PK. Has been producing offensively, although he's got a low IQ there and isn't meant for that. Has done very well. Hopefully back on the fourth line shortly.
Justin Abdelkader: B/B+ - Last season he didn't look improved, but just a bigger role with better players. This season, he really looked better. He could handle the puck, and knew what to do with it. Hitting was explosive and can actually play on any line now. I'm expecting more out of him in the second half though, as I could really see him hitting 20 goals sometime soon.
Mikael Samuelsson: D- - Kids are outplaying him. Hasn't done well at all. Played on different roles, and has done little to nothing. Just not a regular on this team.

Niklas Kronwall: A - Best season thus far. He's the man on the backend. Consistent play in both ends. Has done better this season than last and even mixing up his partners with injuries. Producing big time offensively, and has not been shabby defensively.
Jonathan Ericsson: B+ - Injury woes, but has been great. Big, physical, and does his job well. Can chip in a bit offensively. PK really hurts when he's out. Great season, really making his case for a legit #2 (has done that).
Danny DeKeyser: A - Came in as a #4 to the team this season, and has got a much bigger role. Defensive game has been tight. Has been surprisingly put up big offensive numbers (not big, but ish) and took over AND did well as the #2D.
Kyle Quincey: C+ - Had high hopes, but he just can't work at that role and in this system. He's been a liability defensively, and doesn't have the same offensive flare as he used to. Big let down.
Brian Lashoff: B - Has done his job well, played his minutes and continues to improve. Nothing too great, not a long-term fix, but has taken a roster spot from Smith early on, and Kindl right now. Speaks in volumes of how much Babs trusts him.
Jakub Kindl: B- - Not as high on him as others, but I expected better than this. Had a nice 7 game stretch or so, but other than that, nothing. Lackluster on the PP, not average defensively, just nothing.
Brendan Smith: B- - Looked like eh didn't belong earlier in the season. More than that. Was outplayed by 6 other defenseman, and Ouellet coming up. Liability. Has had a nice stretch since returning from injury, but still raw. He's not super young either. I expected a better run out of him after that ****hole of a 12/13 season.

Jimmy Howard: B - I had him pegged as as top five goalie coming into this season. Has been average among starters. Has let in a lot of softies, and just hasn't been there. Before he'd be winning games, but not this season. Not just that, but at times, was losing games. Outplayed by the backup. Need a strong second half out of him.
Jonas Gustavsson: A - Exceeded my expectations. Took the #1 spot for a short-time. Outplayed Howard, and has been a monster. Beat top teams, and had a deadly hot streak which he seems ot have fell out of. What more could you expect from a back-up?

I didn't list some of the kids that only played a few games like Xavier Ouellet, Adam Almquist, Patrick Eaves, Jordin Tootoo, Riley Sheahan, Luke Glendening, and Tomas Jurco.

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12-24-2013, 02:41 PM
  #44
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Well folks, its 4am on a Monday and I just finally finished my research paper. Sleep isn't an option, so I figured it would be the perfect time to start a new thread

Since we're near the quarter-mark (18 games into the season), I thought we could start up a thread giving each player a letter grade pertaining to their performance so far this year (same kind of thing we did last year). You can give more insight to your rankings if you want, I'm just doing it because I have all the time in the world


Mark your grades based on your expectations for that player coming into the year.



Zetterberg A+ On pace for over 40 goals, most consistent player on the team - brings it each and every night
Datsyuk A Great as always, a bit inconsistent but nonetheless great
Bertuzzi A- Thought his career was over - one of the few players who plays well with Pavel - deserves more credit for first line's success
Franzen D Haven't given up on him like most but he's gotta do better when he returns
Weiss D+ Obviously not thrilled but he's earned his contract the past week or so - great in all three zones - needs consistent linemates who can finish
Alfredsson B+ Way better than expected from the old guy, but wish he would contribute more on ES especially with Weiss
Tatar B Really earning Babcock's trust lately - he's a puckhound and is real feisty - sometimes tries to do too much (though understandable)
Andersson C- Picked up his game recently, always been smart but needs speed around him
Abdelkader C Didn't work out with D&Z - doing fine when down in the lineup
Helm A+++ Just happy to see him out there - still got the speed too
Cleary F Worst forward on the team by far - even Babcock of all people his noticing his poor play
Miller D+ Needs to be better
Eaves C- Okay, no expectations
Samuelsson C- Same as Eaves
Glendening C Doing a good enough job filling in
__________________________________________________

Kronwall A+ Not getting enough love around here - he's played like a legit #1 on both sides of the ice
Ericsson B Just solid
DeKeyser A- Really caught fire recently - gonna be here for a while folks
Kindl C Not a good start offensively but really picking it up recently - steadily improving defensively - needs some more help around him on the PP
Smith D+ Not nearly as bad as people are saying around here but still not great - can't blame him too much for not producing when he's an offensive defenseman being played like a pure shutdown defenseman - give him time people! (and a better partner)
Quincey F No comment
Lashoff B Well he's no longer the worst defenseman on the team, been okay as a filler - somewhat surprising considering last year
Ouellet B+ Solid in both games - believe he's our 5th best defenseman
Almquist B+ Underrated around here - his abilities are tough to come by and letting him go would be a mistake
__________________________________________________

Howard C- Two good games and his stats will be back to normal - just way too inconsistent right now albeit an poor defense in front of him
Gustavsson A++ Jimmy who?
Mrazek A+++ Jonas who?



Looking at my rankings, it pretty much follows the idea that the Wings need their depth and Jimmy to step up.
I pretty much agree with all of your grades except you're a little harsh on Franzen, he is scoring at about a 60 point pace.

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Old
12-24-2013, 02:45 PM
  #45
jaster
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Doing grades is exhausting. Here's my list of guys who have taken an extra step and/or new guys fulfilling important roles, and my list of guys who have been underwhelming, at best.

Encouraging
Gustavsson
Alfredsson
Nyquist
Helm (when healthy)
Dekeyser

Disappointing
Howard
Weiss
Cleary
Quincey
Kindl

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12-24-2013, 02:45 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Johnz96 View Post
I pretty much agree with all of your grades except you're a little harsh on Franzen, he is scoring at about a 60 point pace.
You replied to rankings from 1.5 months ago.. (before he got hot)

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12-24-2013, 02:45 PM
  #47
jaster
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I pretty much agree with all of your grades except you're a little harsh on Franzen, he is scoring at about a 60 point pace.
To be fair, the post you quoted is 6 weeks old

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12-24-2013, 02:56 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Doing grades is exhausting.
Agreed.

Quote:
Encouraging
Gustavsson
Alfredsson
Nyquist
Helm (when healthy)
Dekeyser

Disappointing
Howard
Weiss
Cleary
Quincey
Kindl
What are your thoughts on Tatars season as a whole?

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Old
12-24-2013, 03:01 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Doing grades is exhausting. Here's my list of guys who have taken an extra step and/or new guys fulfilling important roles, and my list of guys who have been underwhelming, at best.

Encouraging
Gustavsson
Alfredsson
Nyquist
Helm (when healthy)
Dekeyser

Disappointing
Howard
Weiss
Cleary
Quincey
Kindl
Agreed about doing grades, which is why I usually refrain from them.

I agree especially about Quincey and Cleary. But to be honest, I would be shocked if they were on anything but the disappointing list.

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12-24-2013, 03:13 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
What are your thoughts on Tatars season as a whole?
I've been extremely impressed. I think he's still showing flashes, and that's typical of a rookie. He has a few moments per game where he looks like a dynamic scorer in terms of stickhandling, agility, and creativity.

He's not putting it together like that yet, but that's to be expected. I think next year could be big for him.

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