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Talk Slowly and Use Small Words, its the Michael Del Zotto Thread

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Old
11-12-2013, 12:45 PM
  #226
smoneil
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Originally Posted by Calad View Post
I had a thought, its a weird one but seeing as how it worked out in SJ with Burns. How well suited would MDZ be on the wing?
Makes no sense to me. There are plenty of middle 6 wingers out there. Del Zotto has a lot more value as a D.

Frankly, I doubt the team moves Del Zotto until the trade deadline at the earliest (if they move him at all). I honestly think they are trying to figure out what's going on with Staal first. There are so many questions regarding Staal--is he staying or going to Carolina? Is his eye going to impact his play? Is he injury prone or is he past that (ie- just freak injuries)? Staal started the season looking awful (he was literally our worst defenseman). He's looked much better of late. Which one is the real one? I think they are trying to figure all of these things out.

If they think they might lose Staal in a year or that he might not be the same player, they can't move Del Zotto. Are you comfortable with Moore as the 2nd pair LD? I'm not. He's looked even worse than Del Zotto recently, and he doesn't even have the excuse of playing his off side. I honestly think the team is trying to decide long-term between Staal and MDZ for that one spot. It's a decision they don't have to make right now, which gives them more time to collect data.

Moving MDZ to the wing (or, in my opinion, continuing to play him on the right side) is just poor asset management, as it screws with a young player's development.

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11-12-2013, 01:10 PM
  #227
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Like I said, it's a weird thought. Just something to consider if MDZ can't get anything going where he is now. I wasn't aware Burns was drafted as a forward so that makes a lot of sense, but as far as I know, D requires more of a hockey IQ than F does. We've had a dearth of talent at the LW position, and if MDZ was able to adjust to that we would have some great flexibility that also takes care of the logjam at LD.

I will agree though that if they decide to move Staal and keep MDZ putting him at 2nd pair LD would be ideal.

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11-12-2013, 01:27 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Calad View Post
Like I said, it's a weird thought. Just something to consider if MDZ can't get anything going where he is now. I wasn't aware Burns was drafted as a forward so that makes a lot of sense, but as far as I know, D requires more of a hockey IQ than F does. We've had a dearth of talent at the LW position, and if MDZ was able to adjust to that we would have some great flexibility that also takes care of the logjam at LD.

I will agree though that if they decide to move Staal and keep MDZ putting him at 2nd pair LD would be ideal.

There's also the value aspect. If they do ultimately decide that Staal is the long-term 2nd pair LD (and get him signed to an extension), then the winger we could get back in trade for MDZ would likely be much better than MDZ as a winger. It's not an outlandish idea, and if MDZ were older/fully developed (like Gilroy, or some of the other F/D hybrids we've tried in the past), then it would make sense to at least give it a try, but my personal preference is that they give DZ a run in his comfort zone and decide what their long-term plan is first.

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11-12-2013, 10:23 PM
  #229
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One encouraging thing tonight against the Devils (and the last couple of games, actually) was that Del Zotto played IMO his best hockey of the year.

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11-13-2013, 12:11 PM
  #230
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One encouraging thing tonight against the Devils (and the last couple of games, actually) was that Del Zotto played IMO his best hockey of the year.
That pass from deep in his zone that Andy Greene leapt up and knocked down and that landed a few seconds later in our net was not a good play.

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11-13-2013, 12:55 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
That pass from deep in his zone that Andy Greene leapt up and knocked down and that landed a few seconds later in our net was not a good play.
you mean the great play by Greene and the god awful defense by John Moore?

indeed, not a good play

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11-13-2013, 01:12 PM
  #232
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The overreaction on this board is uncanny.

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11-13-2013, 03:34 PM
  #233
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Yes we should have moved him last year while his value was high, but its never to late... Do it for an edm top 6er. Who knows maybe we can package to get Yakupov...

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11-13-2013, 04:18 PM
  #234
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The overreaction on this board is uncanny.
We've seen a lot of DZ over the years, in all situations. Not saying he's plateaued - better hope not at his age - but I can't take it anymore. And this year his physicality is down, and his mental game seems to have regressed. The analysis of him lately mirrors Richards, where people seem to want him to succeed so much they'll focus on the few positives and downplay the glaring mistakes or issues in his overall game. They're both billed as offensive, PP types, yet have manned one of the most dreadful PPs in the league over the past few years. And they just keep throwing them out there. Richards especially. Double shift him! Run the break out! Take one timer after one timer high and wide with no traffic, or in DZ's case, right into the defender's shin pads.

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11-13-2013, 05:08 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
you mean the great play by Greene and the god awful defense by John Moore?

indeed, not a good play
Where the problem began was that puck not getting out of the zone. It had all the forwards going in the wrong direction. It was a great play by Greene but the giveaway was DZ. Now Moore might not have played it too well and I'm not sure Henrik did either but DZ started it.

I think I've said this before---I don't like DZ on the right side.

Personally I don't know why Moore is on the left and DZ is on the right. There must be a good reason that the coaching staff feel otherwise but Moore supposedly has played right side before and is a much better skater. To me they should be switched and if they were I probably wouldn't be on DZ's case nearly as much.

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11-13-2013, 05:10 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Where the problem began was that puck not getting out of the zone. It had all the forwards going in the wrong direction. It was a great play by Greene but the giveaway was DZ. Now Moore might not have played it too well and I'm not sure Henrik did either but DZ started it.

I think I've said this before---I don't like DZ on the right side.

Personally I don't know why Moore is on the left and DZ is on the right. There must be a good reason that the coaching staff feel otherwise but Moore supposedly has played right side before and is a much better skater. To me they should be switched and if they were I probably wouldn't be on DZ's case nearly as much.
I would assume Moore is more comfortable on the left side. And despite being close in age, Del Zotto is the veteran.

The Rangers have some issues with Moore. Once you get past the breathtaking skating, the realization comes that hes not a good defenseman yet.

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11-13-2013, 05:17 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I would assume Moore is more comfortable on the left side. And despite being close in age, Del Zotto is the veteran.

The Rangers have some issues with Moore. Once you get past the breathtaking skating, the realization comes that hes not a good defenseman yet.
If we're talking about defensive ability I feel the same about the both of them. Neither of them are great in their own end.

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11-13-2013, 05:36 PM
  #238
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Its actually a somewhat interesting discussion.

I think everyone here would rather keep Staal than MDZ, but Staal is probably significantly more valuable in a trade.

MDZ moving back to the left, does make him a better player as well.

If the choice was flip MDZ for a mid 6 forward, or flip staal for a top 6 forward + a defensive prospect, I could see that being a legitimate discussion.

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11-13-2013, 06:27 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by freewheeler View Post
We've seen a lot of DZ over the years, in all situations. Not saying he's plateaued - better hope not at his age - but I can't take it anymore. And this year his physicality is down, and his mental game seems to have regressed. The analysis of him lately mirrors Richards, where people seem to want him to succeed so much they'll focus on the few positives and downplay the glaring mistakes or issues in his overall game. They're both billed as offensive, PP types, yet have manned one of the most dreadful PPs in the league over the past few years. And they just keep throwing them out there. Richards especially. Double shift him! Run the break out! Take one timer after one timer high and wide with no traffic, or in DZ's case, right into the defender's shin pads.
You got it all wrong, it's the exact opposite, the proof is the current discussion.
The positives he had in a an overall good game are completely overlooked and the only thing being harped on is the play by Green to keep the puck in the zone.

Every game, his every move is scrutinized to find something negative to point out. Even the good games he had, people find something to crap on. So you can stop pretending the opposite.

The thing is, DZ has performed well so far in his career, people forget how ably he filled in top 4 when Staal was injured. Many nights he was the best Rangers D on the ice.
He has produced consistently last 2 years, at least 38 points. He is tied for the second lowest giveaways on the team. But that's not enough. Some people who have less IQ than he has hockey IQ love to crap on him because they can, that's all it is.
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Where the problem began was that puck not getting out of the zone. It had all the forwards going in the wrong direction. It was a great play by Greene but the giveaway was DZ. Now Moore might not have played it too well and I'm not sure Henrik did either but DZ started it.
I love the way you phrase it.
Moore "might" not have it played it well But DZ started it.
One is an expression of possibility, but the other is an expression of certainty.
Did Moore play it well or not? The answer is obvious, you don't have to hide behind "might".
And what did DZ actually start? He made a good attempt to clear the zone high, it was a great play by Green. Let it go.

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Personally I don't know why Moore is on the left and DZ is on the right. There must be a good reason that the coaching staff feel otherwise but Moore supposedly has played right side before and is a much better skater. To me they should be switched and if they were I probably wouldn't be on DZ's case nearly as much.
I agree with you on this one. For the life of me I don't know why they are not switched, Moore has played the right side before, that's where he should be, but given how he has played so far, I think the coaching stuff has doubts.

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11-13-2013, 06:43 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I would assume Moore is more comfortable on the left side. And despite being close in age, Del Zotto is the veteran.

The Rangers have some issues with Moore. Once you get past the breathtaking skating, the realization comes that hes not a good defenseman yet.
Some people just can't get over the skating and age factor.

Fact of the matter is he's a passable third pairing guy at best at this stage.

DZ has been fine for a few games now. Some of you guys may really like watching the Rangers, and know all about them, but you're really really bad at evaluating players.

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11-13-2013, 06:54 PM
  #241
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Wonder what would be the reaction if DZ had done this?


That turnover led directly to the 2nd goal.
Which is why I say the only point in trading DZ is so we can move on to Moore as the new whipping boy. Rangers haven't had a #1 PMD/PPQB since they traded Leetch and that doesn't make DZ suck, He's still a top4 blueliner. Moore isn't a #1 PMD/PPQB either and neither was Rozsival.

http://www.msg.com/videos/index.html?vid=2417459518
DZ probably saves a goal with his play on Jagr.


Girardi gets a goal from a bad play by Larson. So this apparently earns him a pass for his less than stellar defensive play this game where both he and DZ were a -1. For the one goal against DZ was on the ice for, he didn't cause the turnover and his man, although right in the middle of the action, didn't take part in the scoring of the goal because of DZ's defensive play.

I'd attribute blueline puck control, or lack thereof, to MSG's horrible ice more than I would DZ's skill. Rangers took an icing late in the 3rd because Krieder couldn't tip a puck that bounced around on him. This from a guy who batted the puck out of the air in the 1st period, while moving and WITHOUT taking a highsticking call.

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11-13-2013, 07:12 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by freewheeler View Post
We've seen a lot of DZ over the years, in all situations. Not saying he's plateaued - better hope not at his age - but I can't take it anymore. And this year his physicality is down, and his mental game seems to have regressed. The analysis of him lately mirrors Richards, where people seem to want him to succeed so much they'll focus on the few positives and downplay the glaring mistakes or issues in his overall game. They're both billed as offensive, PP types, yet have manned one of the most dreadful PPs in the league over the past few years. And they just keep throwing them out there. Richards especially. Double shift him! Run the break out! Take one timer after one timer high and wide with no traffic, or in DZ's case, right into the defender's shin pads.
Yep he just spontaneously became a moron. It couldn't be that he's on his off wing.

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11-13-2013, 07:14 PM
  #243
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Yep he just spontaneously became a moron. It couldn't be that he's on his off wing.
So if off wing is the problem, then either Staal or MDZ need to be moved.

Unless you dont think MDZ is good enough to be a top 4.

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11-13-2013, 08:34 PM
  #244
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So if off wing is the problem, then either Staal or MDZ need to be moved.

Unless you dont think MDZ is good enough to be a top 4.
Maybe Moore is being evaluated as well? We have all been assuming that John Moore is a lock to be on this team long-term. Just a little over a year ago, Moore couldn't crack the Columbus lineup. He's got GREAT skating, and when he's on, he seems to be very good with the puck, but lately, he's been sort of the D version of Brassard. AV seems to trust Moore even less than he does MDZ.

I still think this is an evaluation period. Nobody in their right mind would keep MDZ over a healthy, committed long-term signed Marc Staal. I think the team wants to see if Staal can regularly be that guy on the ice (he didn't for the first 7 or 8 games--he's been his old phenomenal self the last few games though), and I think they want to get some idea whether or not MSG is the ice he wants to be on long-term. If Staal plays to his usual standard through to the trade deadline, I think they offer him an extension and see what he does (signs, negotiates, turns it down, tells them he longs for the redneck fields of Carolina, whatever). If he signs, then the top 4 on the left will be locked up for years, and it's time to see what Del Zotto can bring back in trade. If not, then it's time to see what Staal can bring back in trade.

If this is an evaluation period, that might explain why MDZ is on the right. If AV isn't sold on Moore, then they might want to keep MDZ for the long term 3rd pair LD (+ special teams).

Either way, I think our defense will look different by the trade deadline.

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11-13-2013, 08:42 PM
  #245
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Maybe Moore is being evaluated as well? We have all been assuming that John Moore is a lock to be on this team long-term.
I dont think it matters with Moore, he is probably going to be given more time either way, largely because he probably doesnt have much trade value.

Quote:
I still think this is an evaluation period. Nobody in their right mind would keep MDZ over a healthy, committed long-term signed Marc Staal.
Im sure opposing teams feel the same way, and would offer considerably more to get Staal than MDZ.

Quote:
If this is an evaluation period, that might explain why MDZ is on the right. If AV isn't sold on Moore, then they might want to keep MDZ for the long term 3rd pair LD (+ special teams).

Either way, I think our defense will look different by the trade deadline.
I just dont think Moore factors into the decision with Staal/MDZ. Unless they plan on moving multiple D, which could happen with this offseason (girardi could walk, perhaps)

I think either way, they HAVE to move one of the LDs. Theres just no point in having 4 of them.

They still have a couple young guys to develop on D, plus Moore still has a ways to go.

Would it be substantially cheaper to resign MDZ than Staal? That has to be a factor as well.

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11-13-2013, 08:50 PM
  #246
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I dont think it matters with Moore, he is probably going to be given more time either way, largely because he probably doesnt have much trade value.


Im sure opposing teams feel the same way, and would offer considerably more to get Staal than MDZ.



I just dont think Moore factors into the decision with Staal/MDZ. Unless they plan on moving multiple D, which could happen with this offseason (girardi could walk, perhaps)

I think either way, they HAVE to move one of the LDs. Theres just no point in having 4 of them.

They still have a couple young guys to develop on D, plus Moore still has a ways to go.

Would it be substantially cheaper to resign MDZ than Staal? That has to be a factor as well.

I think they WILL have to...just not today. When McIlrath shows that he's ready to displace someone for a regular shift in the top 6, then they will have to make a decision. MDZ is one of my favorite players, but if Marc Staal is playing like Marc Staal (a #1 defenseman--he is just as good as McDonagh when healthy and on his game), you don't move him just because he would bring a better return.

As for Moore, if he doesn't start doing something with his minutes, he might be the odd man out when the time comes. Getting a 2nd round pick or a good prospect for Moore (while keeping a left side of McD/Staal/MDZ) is potentially a better thing than sacrificing on D in order to get a forward. (particularly with the way our forwards have been playing--Kreider/Hagelin have been doing well on the left, and Zuc/Callahan have been great on the right. Add Nash to that? Maybe Miller if he keeps developing? We could be in fine shape for a run if this group keeps coming together).

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11-13-2013, 09:04 PM
  #247
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I think they WILL have to...just not today. When McIlrath shows that he's ready to displace someone for a regular shift in the top 6, then they will have to make a decision. MDZ is one of my favorite players, but if Marc Staal is playing like Marc Staal (a #1 defenseman--he is just as good as McDonagh when healthy and on his game), you don't move him just because he would bring a better return.

As for Moore, if he doesn't start doing something with his minutes, he might be the odd man out when the time comes. Getting a 2nd round pick or a good prospect for Moore (while keeping a left side of McD/Staal/MDZ) is potentially a better thing than sacrificing on D in order to get a forward. (particularly with the way our forwards have been playing--Kreider/Hagelin have been doing well on the left, and Zuc/Callahan have been great on the right. Add Nash to that? Maybe Miller if he keeps developing? We could be in fine shape for a run if this group keeps coming together).
I dont see Moore being an odd man out, at least not for another 2 seasons at a minimum. Hes going to be too inexpensive, and not valuable enough to trade for anything substantial. And at 22 years old, there really is no reason to move him for a prospect, as he is still really a prospect. As is MDZ.

Going forward, they still need forwards, they dont really have any high end prospects left after Kreider, Miller may have 2nd line sort of upside. Kristo perhaps. But Richards probably is gone after this season, and that leaves depth issues at center again, and they still need depth on wing.

I would argue strong center depth is always more valuable than D depth

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11-14-2013, 04:15 AM
  #248
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What are people thinking Moore is going to suck now? I just think he's going through the growing pains a young D-man (besides McD apparently) goes through.

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11-14-2013, 11:06 AM
  #249
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What are people thinking Moore is going to suck now? I just think he's going through the growing pains a young D-man (besides McD apparently) goes through.
No one said he sucks. He just isn't ready for a top 4 role. MDZ >> Moore (which should be obvious.).

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11-14-2013, 05:30 PM
  #250
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We get on MDZ a lot on this board. Why is John Moore getting a pass? He has been AWFUL this year. Not saying he won't get better, but he deserves some criticism. He has been horrendous. Easily the Rangers worst D-man.

"But he's a good skater". Big deal, so is Michelle Kwan. He needs to play better hockey.

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