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Minor Playoff Detail - Please Help

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Old
11-12-2013, 10:35 PM
  #1
MNNumbers
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Minor Playoff Detail - Please Help

Has anyone ever gotten a clear official link as to what happens with the first round of the playoffs in this scenario:?

Western Conference.
Colorado (CEN Division) is Top Seed
Anaheim (PAC Division) is 2nd Seed

Minnesota (CEN Division) is 1st Wild Card
Los Angeles (PAC Division) is 2nd Wild Card

Of course, the confusion is this:
Normally 1st seed plays 8th seed, which would make COL vs LA and ANA vs MIN

But the playoffs are supposed to be division-based, which is easily accomplished by playing COL vs MIN and ANA vs LA

Which is it?

Thanks for the help.

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11-12-2013, 10:44 PM
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The race for a PO spot is division based, but I thought the seeding was conference based (1 vs 8, 2 vs 7) regardless of how those lineup.

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11-12-2013, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
"The Stanley Cup Playoffs have a new division-based format.

Playoff qualification will be primarily Division-based, with the top three finishers in each Division qualifying for the first 12 spots in the Stanley Cup Playoffs (and the first three "seeds" in each Division).

The two additional playoff spots in each Conference, designated as "Wild Cards," will be awarded to the next two highest-placed finishers in each Conference, ranked on the basis of regular-season points and regardless of Division.

I think Riptide is right. I can't see how you can set it up properly otherwise.

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11-12-2013, 10:58 PM
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That's correct. The wild card is not division-based, just the #1-#3 seeds in each division.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=685005

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11-12-2013, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
The race for a PO spot is division based, but I thought the seeding was conference based (1 vs 8, 2 vs 7) regardless of how those lineup.
Nope.

- Top 3 teams in each division make playoffs.
- Next best two teams per conference make it as wild cards.
- Division Winner w/ best record plays Wild Card w/ worst record
- Other Division Winner plays other Wild Card
- #2s plays #3s

In MNN's example:

Colorado (CEN Division) is Top Seed vs Los Angeles (PAC Division) is 2nd Wild Card
Anaheim (PAC Division) is 2nd Seed vs Minnesota (CEN Division) is 1st Wild Card

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...rmat-1.1871216

Quote:
Matchup breakdown:

The division leader in each conference with the most points plays the wild card team with the fewest points.
The division leader with the second highest amount of points plays the wild card team with the most points
3 & 4 the second and third seeds in each division face one another in the first round

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11-12-2013, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Nope.

- Top 3 teams in each division make playoffs.
- Next best two teams per conference make it as wild cards.
- Division Winner w/ best record plays Wild Card w/ worst record
- Other Division Winner plays other Wild Card
- #2s plays #3s

In MNN's example:

Colorado (CEN Division) is Top Seed vs Los Angeles (PAC Division) is 2nd Wild Card
Anaheim (PAC Division) is 2nd Seed vs Minnesota (CEN Division) is 1st Wild Card

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...rmat-1.1871216

So it's a hybrid of intraconference and division seeding. Honestly, why not just seed them point-wise if you're already kinda/sorta doing it that way?

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11-12-2013, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Nope.

- Top 3 teams in each division make playoffs.
- Next best two teams per conference make it as wild cards.
- Division Winner w/ best record plays Wild Card w/ worst record
- Other Division Winner plays other Wild Card
- #2s plays #3s

In MNN's example:

Colorado (CEN Division) is Top Seed vs Los Angeles (PAC Division) is 2nd Wild Card
Anaheim (PAC Division) is 2nd Seed vs Minnesota (CEN Division) is 1st Wild Card

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...rmat-1.1871216
I'm reading the CBC example, and it's basically what I said - or so I thought? Team in the conf with best record (1) plays wild card with worse record (8) - which can only be spot 8, as the first 6 spots are based on the division leaders (based on points). 2 plays 7 (best WC spot - again they're better than the WC in 8th, but was not one of the top 3 spots in the division), etc. At least that's how I'm assuming things went in their example (they only listed points for the WC entries).

If I'm still reading this completely wrong, could someone give some examples with points etc to make it clearer?

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11-12-2013, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I'm reading the CBC example, and it's basically what I said - or so I thought? Team in the conf with best record (1) plays wild card with worse record (8) - which can only be spot 8, as the first 6 spots are based on the division leaders (based on points). 2 plays 7 (best WC spot - again they're better than the WC in 8th, but was not one of the top 3 spots in the division), etc. At least that's how I'm assuming things went in their example (they only listed points for the WC entries).

If I'm still reading this completely wrong, could someone give some examples with points etc to make it clearer?
Rip-
I think the confusion was about what you meant. Your wording may have made it sound like this: 8 teams make the playoffs in each conference: Top 3 in each Division plus 2 WCs. Then we throw away the divisions and seed those 8 teams 1-8 and have playoffs. This system would obviously allow the possibility that all first round series would cross division borders (Just choose COL 1, ANA 2, PHX 3, CHI 4, SJ 5, ST L 6, MIN 7, LA 8, for example).

I believe that the way it is described here is that the 2nd and 3rd place teams from each division play each other in round one. And, the 2 WCs play the 2 division winners, with 1 v 8 and 2 v 7 regardless of who is from which division.

That seems unwise to me. If there is one WC from each division, and they want division playoffs, then have 1v4 and 2v3 even if that means (by conference) 1v7 and 2v8.

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11-12-2013, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I'm reading the CBC example, and it's basically what I said - or so I thought? Team in the conf with best record (1) plays wild card with worse record (8) - which can only be spot 8, as the first 6 spots are based on the division leaders (based on points). 2 plays 7 (best WC spot - again they're better than the WC in 8th, but was not one of the top 3 spots in the division), etc. At least that's how I'm assuming things went in their example (they only listed points for the WC entries).

If I'm still reading this completely wrong, could someone give some examples with points etc to make it clearer?
Atlantic:
Team AA: 115
Team AB: 114
Team AC: 113

Team AD: 100
Team AE: 97
Team AF: 96
Team AG: 95
Team AH: 94

Metro:
Team MA: 114
Team MB: 113
Team MC: 111

Team MD: 99
Team ME: 98
Team MF: 96
Team MG: 95
Team MH: 94

Atlantic Round 1:
Team AA (115) vs. Team MD (99)
Team AB (114) vs. Team AC (113)

Metro Round 1:
Team MA (114) vs. Team AD (100)
Team MB (113) vs. Team MC (111)

The worst part about this system is in my post below.

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Last edited by Kane One: 11-12-2013 at 11:39 PM.
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11-12-2013, 11:34 PM
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Yes, the top three teams in each division are seeded 1-3 in the divisional playoff rounds regardless of their records compared to other divisions. Then, the two wild card teams are just the next best teams in the conference regardless of division, with the lower seed wild card getting put in the divisional playoffs against the #1 team with the most points in the conference.

In other words, there's a real possibility that the #4 seed in a divisional playoff round could not only come from a different division, but have a better record that the seeded teams that are above them. And, even with that better record, they'd still have a first round draw against the regular season divisional champ.

So, let's hypothetically say that the Central ends up with the Avs first (and first overall in the West), the Hawks second, and the Blues third, the Pacific with the Ducks first, Sharks second, and Kings third, and finally the Wild get the first Wild Card and the Yotes get the second. If this happens, the Yotes would be put in the Central Divisional playoffs for a first round matchup against the Avs and the Wild would be put in the Pacific Divisional playoffs against the Ducks.

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11-12-2013, 11:34 PM
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Now looking at the standings for the Eastern Conference, this scenario would happen right now:

Atlantic:
Tampa (26)
Boston (23)
Detroit (23)
Toronto (23)
Montreal (20)

Ottawa (18)
...

Metro:
Pittsburgh (22)
Washington (21)
New York Rangers (18)

Carolina (18)
...

Atlantic Round 1:
Tampa (26) vs. Montreal (20)
Boston (23) vs Detroit (23)

Metro Round 1:
Pittsburgh (22) vs. Toronto (23)
Washington (21) vs New York Rangers (18)


Look at the Metro playoffs. As of now, it looks like it might be a disadvantage to be the #1 seed in that division.


Last edited by Kane One: 11-12-2013 at 11:39 PM.
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11-12-2013, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane One View Post
Look at the Metro playoffs. As of now, it looks like it might be a disadvantage to be the #1 seed in that division.
Down Goes Brown has you covered.

Quote:
And remember, given the strength of the Atlantic Division and how the playoff seedings work in the case of a crossover, the Penguins could actually win the Metro by a mile and then end up with a tougher first-round matchup than they'd get if they finished second.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ision-terrible

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11-13-2013, 01:53 AM
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only the NHL would develop a playoff format difficult for people to understand

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11-13-2013, 02:32 AM
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What happens after round 1? The way I understand it the teams do not reseed and will continue within the division until one team wins the division. Is that correct?

So in this example Toronto essentially becomes a Metro division team for the duration of the playoffs.

Atlantic Round 1:
Tampa (26) vs. Montreal (20)
Boston (23) vs Detroit (23)

Metro Round 1:
Pittsburgh (22) vs. Toronto (23)
Washington (21) vs New York Rangers (18)

Let's say Toronto wins in this example, so regardless of what happens in either of the Atlantic round 1 matches they would play the winner of Washington/New York?

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11-13-2013, 08:14 AM
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OP here, and I appreciate the discussion.

I believe the current system will remain for 3 years, and then there will be some slight changes. I believe the easiest changes to be these:

Qualification: Top 3 from each division + 2 Wild Cards.

Bracketing: First 2 rounds division-only. This is the only complicated part. If the 2 WCs are 1 from each division, then both play in their own division. In the case of a 5th place team qualifying: Lower wild card plays in division with higher ranked division champion. This means we could have either 1A,2A,3A,4A and 1M,2M,3M,5A or we could have 1A,2A,3A,5A and 1M,2M,3M,4A.

Seeding: For divisions with 4 teams in the bracket, it's easy: 1v4, 2v3. For divisions with a crossover, where the teams could be called 1M, 2M, 3M, WC (using the above example, where WC is either 4A or 5A), the teams are seeded 1,2,3,4 according to Reg Season Pts. In this way, if WC happens to be stronger than 3M, then the first round would be 1Mv3M;2MvWC.

This method preserves as much divisional play as possible, and also protects Division Champions from have more difficult 1st round matchups than Division Runnersup.

I believe this to be easier to understand and follow. Comments?


Last edited by MNNumbers: 11-13-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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11-13-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
only the NHL would develop a playoff format difficult for people to understand
MOD

Division champs play wildcards in what can essentially be thought of as an isolated 1-4/2-3 scenario

Divisional 2-3 seeds play one another.
MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 11-13-2013 at 11:03 AM. Reason: no need to be snarky
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11-13-2013, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigervixxen View Post
What happens after round 1? The way I understand it the teams do not reseed and will continue within the division until one team wins the division. Is that correct?

So in this example Toronto essentially becomes a Metro division team for the duration of the playoffs.

Atlantic Round 1:
Tampa (26) vs. Montreal (20)
Boston (23) vs Detroit (23)

Metro Round 1:
Pittsburgh (22) vs. Toronto (23)
Washington (21) vs New York Rangers (18)

Let's say Toronto wins in this example, so regardless of what happens in either of the Atlantic round 1 matches they would play the winner of Washington/New York?
Yes. For all intents and purposes, what happens in each four-team divisional playoff block is entirely self-contained once they're formed for the first two rounds.

Pretend that they're mini-conferences. Or that this is March Madness come Sweet 16 and Elite 8 time.

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11-13-2013, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigervixxen View Post
What happens after round 1? The way I understand it the teams do not reseed and will continue within the division until one team wins the division. Is that correct?

So in this example Toronto essentially becomes a Metro division team for the duration of the playoffs.

Atlantic Round 1:
Tampa (26) vs. Montreal (20)
Boston (23) vs Detroit (23)

Metro Round 1:
Pittsburgh (22) vs. Toronto (23)
Washington (21) vs New York Rangers (18)

Let's say Toronto wins in this example, so regardless of what happens in either of the Atlantic round 1 matches they would play the winner of Washington/New York?
That's correct.

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11-13-2013, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
OP here, and I appreciate the discussion.

I believe the current system will remain for 3 years, and then there will be some slight changes. I believe the easiest changes to be these:

Qualification: Top 3 from each division + 2 Wild Cards.

Bracketing: First 2 rounds division-only. This is the only complicated part. If the 2 WCs are 1 from each division, then both play in their own division. In the case of a 5th place team qualifying: Lower wild card plays in division with higher ranked division champion. This means we could have either 1A,2A,3A,4A and 1M,2M,3M,5A or we could have 1A,2A,3A,5A and 1M,2M,3M,4A.

Seeding: For divisions with 4 teams in the bracket, it's easy: 1v4, 2v3. For divisions with a crossover, where the teams could be called 1M, 2M, 3M, WC (using the above example, where WC is either 4A or 5A), the teams are seeded 1,2,3,4 according to Reg Season Pts. In this way, if WC happens to be stronger than 3M, then the first round would be 1Mv3M;2MvWC.

This method preserves as much divisional play as possible, and also protects Division Champions from have more difficult 1st round matchups than Division Runnersup.

I believe this to be easier to understand and follow. Comments?
They shouldn't preserve as much divisional play as possible when not all divisions have the same amount of teams.

These are my suggestions:

For the Western Conference playoffs, I'll agree it should just be the top four teams in each division make the playoffs and the first two rounds stay in-division.

For the Eastern Conference playoffs, the best division winner should remain playing the worse wildcard team. The other wildcard team would just move into the other division's playoffs and they'll be re-seeded by points, where it will be 1v4, 2v3.

For the Semi Finals, each division's playoff winner will be re-seeded 1-4.

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11-13-2013, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I'm reading the CBC example, and it's basically what I said - or so I thought? Team in the conf with best record (1) plays wild card with worse record (8) - which can only be spot 8, as the first 6 spots are based on the division leaders (based on points). 2 plays 7 (best WC spot - again they're better than the WC in 8th, but was not one of the top 3 spots in the division), etc. At least that's how I'm assuming things went in their example (they only listed points for the WC entries).

If I'm still reading this completely wrong, could someone give some examples with points etc to make it clearer?
I guess it depends on what you mean by spot 8. The two wildcard teams could in theory be the 4th and 5th best teams in terms of point totals.

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11-13-2013, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane One View Post
They shouldn't preserve as much divisional play as possible when not all divisions have the same amount of teams.

These are my suggestions:

For the Western Conference playoffs, I'll agree it should just be the top four teams in each division make the playoffs and the first two rounds stay in-division.

For the Eastern Conference playoffs, the best division winner should remain playing the worse wildcard team. The other wildcard team would just move into the other division's playoffs and they'll be re-seeded by points, where it will be 1v4, 2v3.

For the Semi Finals, each division's playoff winner will be re-seeded 1-4.
Kane,
Interesting post. I have a little to add, if you don't mind.

This would never happen, but I think, that, in light of unbalanced conferences, and the Time Zones which led to them, that the right answer is:

WEST: Schedule Matrix - 6 games in division, 2 against everyone else. Playoffs - Top 4 in each division qualify, and first 2 rounds are division only.

EAST: Schedule Matrix - 4 games in division, 3 games in conference + 2 extra games on a revolving basis, 2 games interconference. Remember, all teams are ETZ. No extra travel, everyone gets as equal of treatment as possible. Playoffs - Top 8 qualify. Seed 1 - 8.

Like I say, it will never happen, but I think it treats the issues as well as possible.

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11-13-2013, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane One View Post
Now looking at the standings for the Eastern Conference, this scenario would happen right now:

Atlantic:
Tampa (26)
Boston (23)
Detroit (23)
Toronto (23)
Montreal (20)

Ottawa (18)
...

Metro:
Pittsburgh (22)
Washington (21)
New York Rangers (18)

Carolina (18)
...

Atlantic Round 1:
Tampa (26) vs. Montreal (20)
Boston (23) vs Detroit (23)

Metro Round 1:
Pittsburgh (22) vs. Toronto (23)
Washington (21) vs New York Rangers (18)


Look at the Metro playoffs. As of now, it looks like it might be a disadvantage to be the #1 seed in that division.
Naw, as a Pens fan, I'd love a Pens/Leaf matchup. But thanks for this... makes it a lot easier to understand.

Edit, And if Pittsburgh had more points than Tampa (say Pens had 27), it would screw everything up. I think that would mean they'd match up against Montreal ?, while Caps and Rags would play, and the rest of the Atlantic would face off (highest vs lowest)... correct?

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11-13-2013, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Naw, as a Pens fan, I'd love a Pens/Leaf matchup. But thanks for this... makes it a lot easier to understand.

Edit, And if Pittsburgh had more points than Tampa (say Pens had 27), it would screw everything up. I think that would mean they'd match up against Montreal ?, while Caps and Rags would play, and the rest of the Atlantic would face off (highest vs lowest)... correct?
Yep. Pittsburgh would face Montreal and Tampa would face Toronto. Then it would just be 2v3 in both divisions.

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11-13-2013, 11:01 PM
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This is absolutely bush league that the NHL would allow this idiotic format. I don't mind the division alignment but the playoff structure is horrid. Under this set up you can potentially have LA win the Central, Minnesota win the the Pacific, Detroit win the Metro and Columbus win the Atlantic. Utter bush league. They should just keep the current alignment and go back to 1-8 seeds with the division winners getting seeds 1 and 2. I mean come on, do LA fans really want to see "CENTRAL DIVISION CHAMPIONS" hanging from their rafters? Not to mention the confusion future sports historians will have with this.


Last edited by Jetsfan79: 11-13-2013 at 11:06 PM.
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11-14-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Jetsfan79 View Post
This is absolutely bush league that the NHL would allow this idiotic format. I don't mind the division alignment but the playoff structure is horrid. Under this set up you can potentially have LA win the Central, Minnesota win the the Pacific, Detroit win the Metro and Columbus win the Atlantic. Utter bush league. They should just keep the current alignment and go back to 1-8 seeds with the division winners getting seeds 1 and 2. I mean come on, do LA fans really want to see "CENTRAL DIVISION CHAMPIONS" hanging from their rafters? Not to mention the confusion future sports historians will have with this.
Except that they aren't divisional playoffs, so they aren't hanging banners for winning your division in the playoffs.

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