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With Emelin in, who's out?

View Poll Results: Which Scenario?
Play Bouillon, Sit Murray 4 6.78%
Play Murray, Sit Bouillon 14 23.73%
Rotate Bouillon and Murray (Play 1 Game, Sit 1 Game) 21 35.59%
Call Up Tinordi, Sit Bouillon and Murray 20 33.90%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:34 AM
  #51
Milhouse40
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
yeah because in 20 games, it's the first time we'll have a full roster of our regular D (not counting Drewiske) And we will never have injury to our Defense ever again!!!


We'll eventually need to make places for the young D like Tinordi and Beaulieu.

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:36 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Bouillon is -9 at 5 on 5
He 's not playing on the PK
He's a problem on the PP

Murray is really helping th PK
He's brings a physical presence on the left

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban
Murray - Diaz

Seems like the best possibility!
Let's hope Therrien learn is lessons about favoritism (DD)
I would put Gorges - Subban as my first pairing and the bolded as my 2nd pairing.

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:39 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Will be Murray. Tough game yesterday, we were dominated. They were pressuring our D real hard. Type of game we hate playing against. So time on the ice says it all.

Murray: 11:58
Bouillon: 16:46
I think he will be the one sitting as well and I'm sure Therrien would have too much of a hard time telling his buddy Bouillon, hey your sitting this one. If they want to do things right they should rotate, neither Murray or Bouillon should be playing on a nightly basis and when we have back to back games like this weekend it's perfect, they both should get a rest and enjoy a hot dog in the press box

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:42 AM
  #54
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I would go with this.

Markov - Subban (This works why break it up)
Emelin - Gorges (Emelin is better on his natural side)
Murray - Diaz (managed minutes over here)

Bouillon would be the odd out with everyone healthy.

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Will be Murray. Tough game yesterday, we were dominated. They were pressuring our D real hard. Type of game we hate playing against. So time on the ice says it all.

Murray: 11:58
Bouillon: 16:46
You sure about that? I look at PK's icetime and attribute it to the number of PP opportunities we have, compared to his usual TOI. I might be inclined to give Bouillon that same treatment, given that MT loves using him there. I don't know that this game is actually a good measuring stick between the two.

EDIT: After looking up some TOI stats, only PK's went up. Bouillon actually played just about his average, while PK played 4 minutes more than his average! Murray did play less than his average by 2 minutes, which I would contribute to the PP time handed out.

EDIT 2: Yep, Murray played nearly 2 minutes less EV time and no PP time, so his total TOI went down by about the same amount. Bouillon is used on the PP so his TOI stayed the same, given that we had so much PP time. His TOI for EV and PP were a whole 36 seconds off his season average combined.

EDIT 3: I have no argument anymore.

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:50 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP View Post
I'd actually prefer Diaz sits he's my least favourite Hab after DD. But magine if mgm't grew a pair and took both Bouillon and Diaz out?

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Murray - Pateryn

Our right side toughens up which is good as that's where our midget forwards line up. Pateryn will only improve by playing in the NHL whereas old Bouillon is clearly in decline and would accept the press box / mentor role of a 7th D. We'd finally have something like a full-sized D-corps.

But my guess is MT will sit Murray when Emelin returns.
Diaz is to us what Kaberle was for the Leafs but with less points. A PMD with no grit (ultra soft) and who avoids contact 9 times out of 10.

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Old
11-13-2013, 12:24 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadiensforLife View Post
Diaz is to us what Kaberle was for the Leafs but with less points. A PMD with no grit (ultra soft) and who avoids contact 9 times out of 10.
Yet still prevents more goals against than both D on the third pairing who provide more 'grit' than him. Curious. It's almost as if the quality of a defenseman can be independant of his grit rating.

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Old
11-13-2013, 12:46 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Yet still prevents more goals against than both D on the third pairing who provide more 'grit' than him. Curious. It's almost as if the quality of a defenseman can be independant of his grit rating.
Now you're just being ridiculous. Everyone knows size matters!

Just don't tell women that.

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Old
11-13-2013, 12:46 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Murray, hopefully.

Stick to your guns, I guess.

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Old
11-13-2013, 12:49 PM
  #60
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Murray is the obvious choice. Bouillon's still much better than him. I even wonder if on some level being asked to shepherd rookies then anchored with Murray, all on pairings with no RD, hasn't made him look worse than he is (mind, we're talking strictly honest-6th-defenseman at best here).

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Old
11-13-2013, 12:51 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekar View Post
You sure about that? I look at PK's icetime and attribute it to the number of PP opportunities we have, compared to his usual TOI. I might be inclined to give Bouillon that same treatment, given that MT loves using him there. I don't know that this game is actually a good measuring stick between the two.

EDIT: After looking up some TOI stats, only PK's went up. Bouillon actually played just about his average, while PK played 4 minutes more than his average! Murray did play less than his average by 2 minutes, which I would contribute to the PP time handed out.

EDIT 2: Yep, Murray played nearly 2 minutes less EV time and no PP time, so his total TOI went down by about the same amount. Bouillon is used on the PP so his TOI stayed the same, given that we had so much PP time. His TOI for EV and PP were a whole 36 seconds off his season average combined.

EDIT 3: I have no argument anymore.
It's all about situational play. We were playing from behind most of the game. I will be surprised and not happy if Murray is taken out in favor of Bouillon. Bouillon, out of necessity, is sharing Emelins role with Diaz. With Emelin back we need Bouillon or Murray to simply play the role Murray is now, that being a physical crease clearing dman. We all know who's better at that..

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Old
11-13-2013, 12:55 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Murray is the obvious choice. Bouillon's still much better than him. I even wonder if on some level being asked to shepherd rookies then anchored with Murray, all on pairings with no RD, hasn't made him look worse than he is (mind, we're talking strictly honest-6th-defenseman at best here).
Pretty much at one point, a left handed dman will be asked to play the right side given the discrepancy betweent left handed players and right handed players. Having 2 left handed players on a pairing shouldn't be viewed as bad because one has to play "out of position"

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Old
11-13-2013, 12:55 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Murray is the obvious choice. Bouillon's still much better than him. I even wonder if on some level being asked to shepherd rookies then anchored with Murray, all on pairings with no RD, hasn't made him look worse than he is (mind, we're talking strictly honest-6th-defenseman at best here).
Or, vice versa?

You can't play Murray with Bouillon and expect to get full value from big Doug..

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Old
11-13-2013, 01:24 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Murray is the obvious choice. Bouillon's still much better than him. I even wonder if on some level being asked to shepherd rookies then anchored with Murray, all on pairings with no RD, hasn't made him look worse than he is (mind, we're talking strictly honest-6th-defenseman at best here).
And yet if we look at some of the advanced stats Murray is better defensively than Bouillon.

When Bouillon is on the ice we let in more goals per min than when he's not on the ice whereas when Murray is on the ice we let in less goals per min than when he's not on the ice. The difference is over 2 goals per 60 minutes between the two which seems pretty significant (Granted it's a small sample size).

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Old
11-13-2013, 01:30 PM
  #65
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I think Murray will look a lot better with an actual puck moving D like Diaz.

Ideally would much prefer Tinordi up instead of Murray/Bouillon.

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Old
11-13-2013, 01:37 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I guess that for some, it would take to see Murray being paired with somebody else so that we recognize his limitations. 'CAuse the trend is "everything is Bouillon's fault" which again is understandable, Bou doesn't have too many years in front of him. But Murray is not the type of d-man that thrives in this sport that is going faster by the second. Nobody wanted him by the way. NOBODY. Has to be a sign that he's not SOLELY at the mercy of who he is paired with. And some could also say that Bouillon struggles based on who he is paired with. In the end, we will be a much better team the day we don't have neither Murray or Bouillon on the team. And maybe, myself, I would TOTALLY not sit Murray out day in day out and CLEARLY use Murray AND Bouillon as the #6, letting both guys in the game 'cause we will have another injury at that back end.
Sorry but nobody wanted Bouillon either last year and probably this year. I know Therrien will play Bouillon over Murray every time he gets to chose though.

If this anticipated third pairing is to be Diaz - Bouillon, then holy crap, does it look terrible. It doesn't even scare a midget or bantam team, physically speaking.

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Old
11-13-2013, 01:38 PM
  #67
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Old
11-13-2013, 01:51 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Habber View Post
Sorry but nobody wanted Bouillon either last year and probably this year. I know Therrien will play Bouillon over Murray every time he gets to chose though.

If this anticipated third pairing is to be Diaz - Bouillon, then holy crap, does it look terrible. It doesn't even scare a midget or bantam team, physically speaking.
Bouillon -GP19 Hits22 Block shots31
Murray -GP8 Hits22 Block shots24

To me the answer is simple who we play and who we sit........but MT I feel thinks different and wants Bouillon

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Old
11-13-2013, 02:16 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Pretty much at one point, a left handed dman will be asked to play the right side given the discrepancy betweent left handed players and right handed players. Having 2 left handed players on a pairing shouldn't be viewed as bad because one has to play "out of position"
So long as one of those left-handers has some experience playing the right side (as Gorges does), it's okay, but no one of Bouillon-Murray-Beaulieu-Tinordi did.

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Old
11-13-2013, 02:26 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Or, vice versa?

You can't play Murray with Bouillon and expect to get full value from big Doug..
Murray has been bad for a few years now; what we're seeing is par for the course from him. Bouillon was a decent third-pairing guy last year. Quite possible that he took a step back, given his age, but he's more likely to be the one getting pulled down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
When Bouillon is on the ice we let in more goals per min than when he's not on the ice whereas when Murray is on the ice we let in less goals per min than when he's not on the ice. The difference is over 2 goals per 60 minutes between the two which seems pretty significant (Granted it's a small sample size).
The numbers I get from extraskater.com are as follows: at 5-on-5, Bouillon allows 2.43 per 60 minutes of icetime and Murray, 2.88. However goals, especially on such tiny samples, are heavily affected by randomness.

Consider this instead. When Bouillon is on the ice 5-on-5, the Habs have 41.3% of the unblocked shot attempts and 39.0% of the shots -- so basically, when Bouillon is on the ice, the Habs get outshot to a tune of 6 to 4.

That's not very good, but when Murray is on the ice, the Habs have 31.8% of unblocked shot attempts and 30% of shots -- meaning that when Murray is on the ice, the Habs get outshot 7 to 3. That's worse than anyone on the team who's not in the AHL right now, and worse than both Beaulieu and Tinordi. And league-wide that's actually quite awful. There's a reason Therrien limits his icetime so sharply.


Last edited by MathMan: 11-13-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old
11-13-2013, 03:04 PM
  #71
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Murray's a pylon. Sure, he's good when he's parked in front of the net, but having a guy that is only good at pushing guys in front of the net in the defensive zone is an anchor for the other 4 players. His gap control is terrible because of his limited mobility which gives opponents scoring chances on otherwise regular 2-on-2s or 3-on-3s. The guy goes for checks in situations where he shouldn't and in the event that he separates the puck from the puck carrier, he usually loses it in his feet and ends up looking like a dummy. Bouillon isn't very good, but Murray is downright terrible. And whoever called for Bouillon and Diaz to get sat in favour of Murray and Patetyn, give your head a shake buddy.

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Old
11-13-2013, 03:06 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boynickname View Post
Bouillon -GP19 Hits22 Block shots31
Murray -GP8 Hits22 Block shots24

To me the answer is simple who we play and who we sit........but MT I feel thinks different and wants Bouillon
Convincing stats right there !

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Old
11-13-2013, 03:24 PM
  #73
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Murray obviously. Should be Bouillon..

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Old
11-13-2013, 03:33 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
Murray's a pylon. Sure, he's good when he's parked in front of the net, but having a guy that is only good at pushing guys in front of the net in the defensive zone is an anchor for the other 4 players. His gap control is terrible because of his limited mobility which gives opponents scoring chances on otherwise regular 2-on-2s or 3-on-3s. The guy goes for checks in situations where he shouldn't and in the event that he separates the puck from the puck carrier, he usually loses it in his feet and ends up looking like a dummy. Bouillon isn't very good, but Murray is downright terrible. And whoever called for Bouillon and Diaz to get sat in favour of Murray and Patetyn, give your head a shake buddy.
Hi buddy. There are many different things going on in a hockey game, Murray has a role and he does his job -- he's a big and intimidating physical presence and he can clear the crease and win board battles. It's a job nobody else on our defence can do. That's mostly why he was brought in.

And considering Murray was injured and missed the preseason and has now played a grand total of what six games with his new club, I think we should wait a bit before making generalized conclusions like "in the event that he separates the puck from the puck carrier, he usually loses it in his feet and ends up looking like a dummy" lol.

Got to look at the big picture.

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Old
11-13-2013, 03:33 PM
  #75
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Murray needs to sit, he's atrocious.

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