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With Emelin in, who's out?

View Poll Results: Which Scenario?
Play Bouillon, Sit Murray 4 6.78%
Play Murray, Sit Bouillon 14 23.73%
Rotate Bouillon and Murray (Play 1 Game, Sit 1 Game) 21 35.59%
Call Up Tinordi, Sit Bouillon and Murray 20 33.90%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-13-2013, 03:39 PM
  #76
habsfanatics
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Hi buddy. There are many different things going on in a hockey game, Murray has a role and he does his job -- he's a big and intimidating physical presence and he can clear the crease and win board battles. It's a job nobody else on our defence can do. That's mostly why he was brought in.

And considering Murray was injured and missed the preseason and has now played a grand total of what six games with his new club, I think we should wait a bit before making generalized conclusions like "in the event that he separates the puck from the puck carrier, he usually loses it in his feet and ends up looking like a dummy" lol.

Got to look at the big picture.
The big picture shows, that despite winning board battles and clearing the front of the net, which is such a highly coveted skill around here, the Habs routinely get outshot by more than 2-1 when he's on the ice.

He's terribad, his shot-blocking numbers are high because he can't the hell out of his own end. Board battles and crease clearing, if as important a part of the recipe for preventing goals as people say, we aren't seeing it. He gives up more goals per 60 than anyone and twice as many shots as his opponents.

There's no way to cherry-coat this, he sucks.

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Old
11-13-2013, 03:40 PM
  #77
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Should be Bouillon, will be Murray.

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Old
11-13-2013, 03:41 PM
  #78
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Both are terrible btw.

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Old
11-13-2013, 03:46 PM
  #79
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If I had my way Murray and Bouillon would both be out and Brolieu would be in with Emelin.

Murray is basically done, he's so slow and isn't winning battles down low and just simply misreads plays clearing the zone. Bouillon is awful at everything and it feels like 90% of goal scored against are when he's on the ice, can't be a coincidence.

Emelin was a steady rock for the most part last year so why not pair him with an actual right hand D in Diaz or someone like Brolieu who has offensive flair.

Ideally I'd like to see

Markov-Subban
Emelin-Diaz
Gorges-Brolieu

but we're going to see

Gorges-Subban
Markov-Emelin
Bouillon-Diaz (shudder)

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Old
11-13-2013, 05:01 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The numbers I get from extraskater.com are as follows: at 5-on-5, Bouillon allows 2.43 per 60 minutes of icetime and Murray, 2.88. However goals, especially on such tiny samples, are heavily affected by randomness.

Consider this instead. When Bouillon is on the ice 5-on-5, the Habs have 41.3% of the unblocked shot attempts and 39.0% of the shots -- so basically, when Bouillon is on the ice, the Habs get outshot to a tune of 6 to 4.

That's not very good, but when Murray is on the ice, the Habs have 31.8% of unblocked shot attempts and 30% of shots -- meaning that when Murray is on the ice, the Habs get outshot 7 to 3. That's worse than anyone on the team who's not in the AHL right now, and worse than both Beaulieu and Tinordi. And league-wide that's actually quite awful. There's a reason Therrien limits his icetime so sharply.
I took my numbers from behindthenet and looking at them again I now see that they have Bouillon at 16 games played so I guess it hasn't been updated with the stats from the last couple of games.

But in any case it's unfair to Murray to just look at the pure GA/60 since at the start of the season the team was playing much better. Murray has missed out on those games where the team didn't give up much and instead has the games where we've been slumping making up the majority of his games. So you'd expect his numbers to be worse. Which is why I compared the GA/60 when they are on the ice to when they are off the ice. Goals against went up for Bouillon and down for Murray's case.

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Old
11-13-2013, 05:24 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Hi buddy. There are many different things going on in a hockey game, Murray has a role and he does his job -- he's a big and intimidating physical presence and he can clear the crease and win board battles. It's a job nobody else on our defence can do. That's mostly why he was brought in.

And considering Murray was injured and missed the preseason and has now played a grand total of what six games with his new club, I think we should wait a bit before making generalized conclusions like "in the event that he separates the puck from the puck carrier, he usually loses it in his feet and ends up looking like a dummy" lol.

Got to look at the big picture.
You need to get to the board around the same time as opposing players to win the puck battles. Murray can't do that. And like you said, there are many things going on in a hockey game. Players need to be able to address all those situations fairly well to be NHL players. You can't be incredible at dealing with some of those situations, but useless in others which is the case with Murray at this point.

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Old
11-13-2013, 05:49 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I took my numbers from behindthenet and looking at them again I now see that they have Bouillon at 16 games played so I guess it hasn't been updated with the stats from the last couple of games.

But in any case it's unfair to Murray to just look at the pure GA/60 since at the start of the season the team was playing much better. Murray has missed out on those games where the team didn't give up much and instead has the games where we've been slumping making up the majority of his games. So you'd expect his numbers to be worse. Which is why I compared the GA/60 when they are on the ice to when they are off the ice. Goals against went up for Bouillon and down for Murray's case.
I agree, good point that Murray's sample comes from a bad stretch for the Habs. Some people are sort of jumping to conclusions on a small and unfavorably selective sample size. Is a seasonal breakdown stat like GA/60 the correct tool to evaluate a Murray when he's barely played a total of 60 minutes with the Habs? It's distorted, like like using a thumbnail image to print a poster.

Of course Murray will benefit from playing with an agile partner hope that happens we need to beef up on D (and elsewhere, wait till we start playing Boston and Toronto more). Continuing my tangent, for "beef up" reasons I'd also like to see Pateryn in some games -- it's interesting Pateryn was 2nd in scoring on the Habs in the preseason (had one pretty bad game though), and when he came up last week he was leading all Dogs in scoring.

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Old
11-13-2013, 05:56 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP View Post
I agree, good point that Murray's sample comes from a bad stretch for the Habs. Some people are sort of jumping to conclusions on a small and unfavorably selective sample size. Is a seasonal breakdown stat like GA/60 the correct tool to evaluate a Murray when he's barely played a total of 60 minutes with the Habs? It's distorted, like like using a thumbnail image to print a poster.

Of course Murray will benefit from playing with an agile partner hope that happens we need to beef up on D (and elsewhere, wait till we start playing Boston and Toronto more). Continuing my tangent, for "beef up" reasons I'd also like to see Pateryn in some games -- it's interesting Pateryn was 2nd in scoring on the Habs in the preseason (had one pretty bad game though), and when he came up last week he was leading all Dogs in scoring.
huh... more like slighlty over 100...

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Old
11-13-2013, 06:00 PM
  #84
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Anyway, not sure why we're discussing this...without Bouillon, we don't have a PP2.

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Old
11-13-2013, 06:06 PM
  #85
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The pro scouts of the Penguins thought enough of him to get Ray Shero to trade some decent assets for a playoff run even if the Pens did not win. He is a solid bottom pairing guy who can also do what most Habs can't do, hit hard and drop the gloves. I watch a lot of the Shark games and always thought he was a solid Dman.

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Old
11-13-2013, 06:37 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Crimson Skorpion View Post
Pretty much. Bouillon's PP excellence is far too valuable.

Besides hitting though, there is nothing Murray can do that Bouillon can't do (better).
win puck battles....block shots...hit...fight..clear the crease...all things Murray does better.

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Old
11-13-2013, 07:37 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
huh... more like slighlty over 100...
Still too small a sample for a /60 sta. Give Murray a partner and give him some time.

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Originally Posted by Khal Drogo View Post
win puck battles....block shots...hit...fight..clear the crease...all things Murray does better.
Yes. And looking at Toronto's dirty play against Minny tonight don't the Habs want a presence like Murray in the lineup? Especially for the leaf and the broons and a few other teams? We have not played nasty physical games so far this year but that will soon change. And I think a Bouillon - Diaz pairing is laughable.

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Old
11-13-2013, 07:43 PM
  #88
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Bouillon is tough, but he's 5'8 and doesn't have what Domi had.

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Old
11-13-2013, 08:23 PM
  #89
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hope bouillion sits. He's a turnover machine and kills the second wave on the pp. hopeful scratch but funny we all know who's the favorite here... Prolly will still see bouillion on the pp Friday.

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Old
11-13-2013, 09:35 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
But in any case it's unfair to Murray to just look at the pure GA/60 since at the start of the season the team was playing much better. Murray has missed out on those games where the team didn't give up much and instead has the games where we've been slumping making up the majority of his games.
Hmm, and you think that Murray getting in the lineup and the team slumping defensively is purely coincidental?

His Habs career is a small sample, but it's perfectly consistent with his history of the last 2-3 seasons. He's a bad defenseman and has been for a long while now.

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Old
11-13-2013, 10:44 PM
  #91
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It's just crazy that our D is weak enough that we have BOTH Murray and Bouillion in the lineup right now. The fact that we actually had them paired together is just shockingly stupid.

Murray is Mr Slow but he plays physical. Love that. Bouillion is more mobile but handles the puck like a grenade. How about we get rid of both and call up Tinordi? At least the kid will be learning something as he makes his mistakes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Murray has been bad for a few years now; what we're seeing is par for the course from him. Bouillon was a decent third-pairing guy last year. Quite possible that he took a step back, given his age, but he's more likely to be the one getting pulled down.
I felt like last year Bouillion was okay on the 3rd pairing. This year though he just looks terrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The numbers I get from extraskater.com are as follows: at 5-on-5, Bouillon allows 2.43 per 60 minutes of icetime and Murray, 2.88. However goals, especially on such tiny samples, are heavily affected by randomness.

Consider this instead. When Bouillon is on the ice 5-on-5, the Habs have 41.3% of the unblocked shot attempts and 39.0% of the shots -- so basically, when Bouillon is on the ice, the Habs get outshot to a tune of 6 to 4.

That's not very good, but when Murray is on the ice, the Habs have 31.8% of unblocked shot attempts and 30% of shots -- meaning that when Murray is on the ice, the Habs get outshot 7 to 3. That's worse than anyone on the team who's not in the AHL right now, and worse than both Beaulieu and Tinordi. And league-wide that's actually quite awful. There's a reason Therrien limits his icetime so sharply.
Does this take into consideration who they were paired with?

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:55 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's just crazy that our D is weak enough that we have BOTH Murray and Bouillion in the lineup right now. The fact that we actually had them paired together is just shockingly stupid.

Murray is Mr Slow but he plays physical. Love that. Bouillion is more mobile but handles the puck like a grenade. How about we get rid of both and call up Tinordi? At least the kid will be learning something as he makes his mistakes...

I felt like last year Bouillion was okay on the 3rd pairing. This year though he just looks terrible.

Does this take into consideration who they were paired with?
can someone tell this guy Cube and Murray are paired together 5 on 5...

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Old
11-14-2013, 12:19 AM
  #93
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David Desharnais

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11-14-2013, 12:31 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
can someone tell this guy Cube and Murray are paired together 5 on 5...
That is his point I think.

If Murray has only been paired with Bouillon, wheras Bouillon has been paired with Murray and several other players prior to Murray being healthy, then it explains Bouillon having better stats.

Murray never got the chance to play with Markov, etc.

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11-14-2013, 08:00 AM
  #95
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In the end, I think we'll obviously have more than enough chance to see a lineup with Bouillon or Murray out of it during the year and I doubt it will make such a huge difference who's in and who's out.

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11-14-2013, 08:57 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Hmm, and you think that Murray getting in the lineup and the team slumping defensively is purely coincidental?

His Habs career is a small sample, but it's perfectly consistent with his history of the last 2-3 seasons. He's a bad defenseman and has been for a long while now.
Don't get me wrong Murray is not a good defenceman but neither is Bouillon. We have a choice between two bad defenceman and I'd take Murray. Yes I do believe the team slumping and his return are purely coincidental. Bottom pairing defenceman and 4th lines for that matter rarely change the outcome of a game. You win/lose with your best players. Murray isn't the reason that Eller has only put up points in 2 of his last 11 games played or that Plekanec has only 2pts in his last 6 games.

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11-14-2013, 09:49 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Does this take into consideration who they were paired with?
That's an important piece of context and there are many ways to deal with that, including looking at numbers with or without a given player. I don't have those numbers handy. But, when someone's possession numbers are 30%, well, you're not risking much by saying they've been awful.

Bouillon's numbers being higher than Murray's when they are frequently paired together strongly suggests Bouillon's been better away from Murray than Murray has been away from Bouillon. Bouillon does occasionally get Subban time, but otherwise he's been asked to shepherd the rookies.

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Don't get me wrong Murray is not a good defenceman but neither is Bouillon. We have a choice between two bad defenceman and I'd take Murray.
I wouldn't. Bouillon is decidedly mediocre, but Murray is actively negative.

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Yes I do believe the team slumping and his return are purely coincidental. Bottom pairing defenceman and 4th lines for that matter rarely change the outcome of a game.
One of the key things that make a good team good is depth. Even bad teams have top-end players. One of the keys of last season's success was a fourth line that could take very defensive assignments and handle them reasonably well.

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Old
11-14-2013, 09:58 AM
  #98
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Just for the record, John Lu (through tsn 690) said that Emelin and Murray have been seen practicing a ton of PK at practice.

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11-14-2013, 10:01 AM
  #99
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It better be cube or I will.....I...or.....else......I guess nothing but I hope cube is out. I like the physicallity of murry

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11-14-2013, 10:43 AM
  #100
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I think Bouillon and Murray split time, but right off the hop FB is the one that sits. Do you guys think Emelin FINALLY gets PP time when he comes back, or is that still going to be a thing?

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