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HOH Top 40 Goaltenders of All Time

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Old
11-13-2013, 06:53 PM
  #276
Canadiens1958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Maybe skip a few games this year and take an etiquette class...
I'll teach.

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11-13-2013, 06:56 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Since the project ended, ongoing research has accumulated some more goalie performance data. SV% data from the early thirties which provides additional perspective about the strengths of goalies from the early thirties compared to today or any era where the SV% data is readily available.

Research in every historical domain regularly turns up new data. History is not bound by the observable.
Exactly. If we did the survey again in twenty years and the results weren't different, I'd consider it a waste of time.

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11-13-2013, 07:13 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Flawed. Interesting comment.

Since the project ended, ongoing research has accumulated some more goalie performance data. SV% data from the early thirties which provides additional perspective about the strengths of goalies from the early thirties compared to today or any era where the SV% data is readily available.

Research in every historical domain regularly turns up new data. History is not bound by the observable.
Research has also showed that people rewrite history with each recounting of a story - and that human 'memory' is almost too susceptible to suggestion as to be trusted.

You guys are making your list for fun - which is as it should be...but to think that dusty anecdotes and snippets of stats from the 30s actually hold any water and that arguing on a forum message board will actually lead you anywhere to an 'correct' list is... well....

You aren't converging on any sort of 'being right' so that's just a tough thing. You could be swaying people's opinions to make it so, but that is it.

If someone hacked the wikipedia entry for jiri horecek and changed him to Filbert Gimelstab, Filbert would hold down a prime spot on your list.

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11-13-2013, 07:16 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
If someone hacked the wikipedia entry for jiri horecek and changed him to Filbert Gimelstab, Filbert would hold down a prime spot on your list.
Who the hell is "jiri horecek"? Or did someone hack your post? Are you absolutely sure that you read through the arguments in these threads?

Let me guess - you never saw him play, so it shouldn't matter who he is?

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11-13-2013, 07:20 PM
  #280
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Filbert

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Who the hell is "jiri horecek"? Or did someone hack your post? Are you absolutely sure that you read through the arguments in these threads?

Let me guess - you never saw him play, so it shouldn't matter who he is?
Good old Filbert. Practice goalie 1983-84 Sherbrooke Jets AHL.

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11-13-2013, 07:25 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Research has also showed that people rewrite history with each recounting of a story - and that human 'memory' is almost too susceptible to suggestion as to be trusted.

You guys are making your list for fun - which is as it should be...but to think that dusty anecdotes and snippets of stats from the 30s actually hold any water and that arguing on a forum message board will actually lead you anywhere to an 'correct' list is... well....

You aren't converging on any sort of 'being right' so that's just a tough thing. You could be swaying people's opinions to make it so, but that is it.

If someone hacked the wikipedia entry for jiri horecek and changed him to Filbert Gimelstab, Filbert would hold down a prime spot on your list.
I find this extremely doubtful. A lot of diligence went into this project.

I sense that Chalupa would like to thank your for your excellent input.

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11-13-2013, 07:27 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Research has also showed that people rewrite history with each recounting of a story - and that human 'memory' is almost too susceptible to suggestion as to be trusted.

You guys are making your list for fun - which is as it should be...but to think that dusty anecdotes and snippets of stats from the 30s actually hold any water and that arguing on a forum message board will actually lead you anywhere to an 'correct' list is... well....

You aren't converging on any sort of 'being right' so that's just a tough thing. You could be swaying people's opinions to make it so, but that is it.

If someone hacked the wikipedia entry for jiri horecek and changed him to Filbert Gimelstab, Filbert would hold down a prime spot on your list.
You know no one was around to witness Washington or Lincoln's presidencies. But historians seem to rank them at the very top of great presidents lists for about the last 100 years or so.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with things such as books and newspaper articles. No one on this site is making value judgments based on Wikipedia.

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11-13-2013, 07:28 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Who the hell is "jiri horecek"? Or did someone hack your post? Are you absolutely sure that you read through the arguments in these threads?

Let me guess - you never saw him play, so it shouldn't matter who he is?

I typoed the #20 greatest goalie of all time...

20 Jiř Holeček 5'11" 163 1944 1964-1981 Czech

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11-13-2013, 07:30 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Trying to compare them straight up is such apples and oranges that Peter Budaj with his improved technique would likely top your list if we transported him back in time.
Why would a bad goalie who isnt good enough to be a starter at any point in his career suddenly become great by transporting backwards through time?

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11-13-2013, 07:33 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
You know no one was around to witness Washington or Lincoln's presidencies. But historians seem to rank them at the very top of great presidents lists for about the last 100 years or so.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with things such as books and newspaper articles. No one on this site is making value judgments based on Wikipedia.
I noticed you didn't list John K Polk in there yet his presidency ranks up there - but people's lists are what they are.

Following your analogy, please (today) rank Obama's administration on an all-time list.

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11-13-2013, 07:33 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
I typoed the #20 greatest goalie of all time...

20 Jiř Holeček 5'11" 163 1944 1964-1981 Czech
Clearly your knowledge of the subject justifies your criticism.

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11-13-2013, 07:34 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
I noticed you didn't list John K Polk in there yet his presidency ranks up there - but people's lists are what they are.

Following your analogy, please (today) rank Obama's administration on an all-time list.
Let's keep this away from politics. Thanks.

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11-13-2013, 07:35 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Clearly your knowledge of the subject justifies your criticism.
And you, and everyone who voted, can clearly list Jiri's 5 greatest saves without running to some reference.

I stand in shame of my ignorance.

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11-13-2013, 07:36 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
And you, and everyone who voted, can clearly list Jiri's 5 greatest saves without running to some reference.

I stand in shame of my ignorance.
On behalf of all of the people who spent months on this project, I'd like to thank you for your excellent input.

Kudos to you, and kudos again!

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11-13-2013, 07:37 PM
  #290
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Research

Quote:
Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Research has also showed that people rewrite history with each recounting of a story - and that human 'memory' is almost too susceptible to suggestion as to be trusted.

You guys are making your list for fun - which is as it should be...but to think that dusty anecdotes and snippets of stats from the 30s actually hold any water and that arguing on a forum message board will actually lead you anywhere to an 'correct' list is... well....
Research. Perhaps researching the newly contributed SV% data from the thirties would have been a good idea. Especially before commenting.

Simple process of people going thru game summaries and actually compiling the shots and saves as recorded. The narrative nor the results changed. Knowledge about an era's goaltenders was enhanced.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 11-13-2013 at 07:40 PM. Reason: addition
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11-13-2013, 07:44 PM
  #291
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My main regret is that you didn't come by months earlier to tell us what a folly this project was. We could have saved a lot of time.

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11-13-2013, 07:50 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Research. Perhaps researching the newly contributed SV% data from the thirties would have been a good idea. Especially before commenting.

Simple process of people going thru game summaries and actually compiling the shots and saves as recorded. The narrative nor the results changed. Knowledge about an era's goaltenders was enhanced.
"I think pre-1950s goalies is probably our biggest weakness in terms of collective knowledge of any position. "

From the first page.

You guys did fine research. It is a ton of regurgitated opinions and numbers and it is an interesting read. To borrow a phrase: 'kudos'.

In my opinion, comparing Tukka Rask or Roy or whoever to any guy in your pre-50s research is a non-starter, but ok...

I'll permit myself an opinion on who I've seen play and won't pretend that a list of accolades or a few newspaper articles or Stan Fischler's opinion is going to give me an accurate read on someone's career.

So - if you guys are adamant that Jiri is the Xth goalie on the list - no worries.

He can so be in your mind.

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11-13-2013, 07:55 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
So - if you guys are adamant that Jiri is the Xth goalie on the list - no worries.
Anyone who's actually spent five minutes in the project threads would understand that the word "adamant" shouldn't be anywhere near it.

My conclusion is that you haven't spent five minutes in the threads, as you claim. I see the thread that brought you here (and I see that you're back in it right now), and my belief is that you've got some axe to grind regarding the results.

Thank you for your contributions to the thread. You may have one more response on this subtopic, and then we're going to move on.

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11-13-2013, 07:55 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post

So - if you guys are adamant that Jiri is the Xth goalie on the list - no worries.

He can so be in your mind.
1) Who is "you guys?"
2) Who is "adamant" that this is a definitive list of anything? IMO, it's the best-researched list of the top goalies of all-time that is available, but that doesn't mean anyone actually thinks the rankings are definitive.

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11-13-2013, 07:56 PM
  #295
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Why are you using a goalie from the 70s as an example? That isn't exactly ancient history and sure does nothing to discredit the list.

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11-13-2013, 07:59 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Why are you using a goalie from the 70s as an example? That isn't exactly ancient history and sure does nothing to discredit the list.
Nobody watched hockey in the 1970s, silly.

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11-13-2013, 10:52 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Anyone who's actually spent five minutes in the project threads would understand that the word "adamant" shouldn't be anywhere near it.

My conclusion is that you haven't spent five minutes in the threads, as you claim. I see the thread that brought you here (and I see that you're back in it right now), and my belief is that you've got some axe to grind regarding the results.

Thank you for your contributions to the thread. You may have one more response on this subtopic, and then we're going to move on.
This quote, from you:
"I see Hrudey as a "Cujo lite", but his best years were obfuscated by the 1980s era. I've got him at 128 goals better than average over his NHL career, and 433 goals better than replacement level.

I don't see much of a case for top 40, but I like him and though that he deserved top 60 consideration."

Should be all anyone ever needs to know about the sanctity of your poll and what stats do to warp opinions.

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11-13-2013, 10:57 PM
  #298
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In case it makes you feel better, I watched nearly every season of Kelly Hrudey's career live.

And your response doesn't indicate if you think that I'm overrating Hrudey or underrating Hrudey. In either case, who are you where your opinion is automatically the one that everyone should bow down to?

"Should be all anyone ever needs to know about the sanctity of your poll and what stats do to warp opinions." Get off of your high horse.

It's probably pretty easy to sit back and take pot-shots at others' opinions. Why don't you make some statements of your own, and let us pick them apart?

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11-13-2013, 11:06 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
In case it makes you feel better, I watched nearly every season of Kelly Hrudey's career live.

And your response doesn't indicate if you think that I'm overrating Hrudey or underrating Hrudey. In either case, who are you where your opinion is automatically the one that everyone should bow down to?

"Should be all anyone ever needs to know about the sanctity of your poll and what stats do to warp opinions." Get off of your high horse.

It's probably pretty easy to sit back and take pot-shots at others' opinions. Why don't you make some statements of your own, and let us pick them apart?
Heh, I can't figure that one out either. I guess all the true sages like to speak in riddles.

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11-13-2013, 11:06 PM
  #300
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It's probably pretty easy to sit back and take pot-shots at others' opinions. Why don't you make some statements of your own, and let us pick them apart?
He did say that Mike Richter was as good as Henrik Lundqvist and that Mike Liut wasn't a top-40 goaltender and that Martin Brodeur would be the #1 goaltender in 20 years. So there's that.

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