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HOH Top 40 Goaltenders of All Time

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Old
11-13-2013, 10:23 PM
  #301
billingtons ghost
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
In case it makes you feel better, I watched nearly every season of Kelly Hrudey's career live.

And your response doesn't indicate if you think that I'm overrating Hrudey or underrating Hrudey. And in either case, who are you where your opinion is automatically the one that everyone should bow down to?

"Should be all anyone ever needs to know about the sanctity of your poll and what stats do to warp opinions." Get off of your high horse.

It's probably pretty easy to sit back and take pot-shots at others' opinions. Why don't you make some statements of your own, and let us pick them apart?
high horse? Am I permitted to speak or did I get my one reply? You started out on the high horse here, and you're the one that went diving into a debate waving your list as the end-all, ok? That's what got me here.

It is nice you guys did some work to educate everyone about pre-1950 players, and it is nice that informed folks were polled and offered their opinions.

I offered that it would be interesting to do a generational thing because it is tough for folks to compare apples to oranges - especially when they have never seen guys play. Sorry that seems to have been a terrible thing to say.

I get it - you are a stats guy and 'X' of these makes this player better than 'Y' of those.

I can't offer any opinions about guys I haven't seen play - because three WC MVPs doesn't mean diddly to me. Truly. You have done a noble thing in trying.

I did see Hrudey play alot with the Isles. I did watch Liut extensively with Hartford and the Caps and I did see Richter and Lundqvist. If some folks who watched those guys play too want to debate something - I'm ok.

Enough with the condescension. You win - I won't come back.

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11-13-2013, 10:25 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
you're the one that went diving into a debate waving your list as the end-all, ok?
I did?

The rest of your post appears to make a lot of false assumptions about me. For instance, the fact that I use statistics to augment my own experiences does not make me a "stats guy".

And you still have managed to not tell me whether (in your opinion) I've overrated Hrudey or underrated him.

Feel free to put your opinions up for scrutiny. I realize that that's more difficult.

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Old
11-13-2013, 10:26 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Enough with the condescension. You win - I won't come back.
Because that would require your opinions to go on trial?

Uses the phrase "all-time" in relation to a goaltender
Declared Stevens to have a better prime than Jagr

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...17&postcount=4


I'm curious as to why it's okay to make an off-hand statement evaluating a goaltender's place in the context of "all-time" in a thread about Stevens being a better hockey player than Jagr, but when we gathered up 27 people to talk about Jiri "Horecek," what we were doing was "sadly extremely flawed."

Don't run away; indulge me.

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Old
11-13-2013, 10:28 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I did?
Obviously:

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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Exactly. If we did the survey again in twenty years and the results weren't different, I'd consider it a waste of time.
What part about this statement is not indicating that the list was the "end-all" of goalie lists?

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11-13-2013, 10:29 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
What part about this statement is not indicating that the list was the "end-all" of goalie lists?
Reminds me of this quote from This Is Spinal Tap:

Marty DiBergi: "This tasteless cover is a good indication of the lack of musical invention within. The musical growth of this band cannot even be charted. They are treading water in a sea of ******** sexuality and bad poetry."

Nigel Tufnel: That's just nitpicking, isn't it?

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Old
11-13-2013, 10:34 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Because that would require your opinions to go on trial?

Uses the phrase "all-time" in relation to a goaltender
Declared Stevens to have a better prime than Jagr

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...17&postcount=4


I'm curious as to why it's okay to make an off-hand statement evaluating a goaltender's place in the context of "all-time" in a thread about Stevens being a better hockey player than Jagr, but when we gathered up 27 people to talk about Jiri "Horecek," what we were doing was "sadly extremely flawed."

Don't run away; indulge me.
Comparing two players who played in the same league, at the same time who everyone watched play in multiple playoff runs?

Versus comparing someone who you could have stayed up late at night (if you are 50 years or older) to see play in World Championships versus Roy/Hasek/Brodeur versus someone who played in 1931?

Yeah, my opinion might be wrong, and you can laugh or rip it to pieces - but at least it is founded on something - because you and I've seen the guys play.

Yes - the approach here is flawed and it's tough to make a case for the list's ultimate worth.

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11-13-2013, 10:36 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Reminds me of this quote from This Is Spinal Tap:

Marty DiBergi: "This tasteless cover is a good indication of the lack of musical invention within. The musical growth of this band cannot even be charted. They are treading water in a sea of ******** sexuality and bad poetry."

Nigel Tufnel: That's just nitpicking, isn't it?
ANd your line would be:
'because it is green...'

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Old
11-13-2013, 10:45 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I did?

The rest of your post appears to make a lot of false assumptions about me. For instance, the fact that I use statistics to augment my own experiences does not make me a "stats guy".

And you still have managed to not tell me whether (in your opinion) I've overrated Hrudey or underrated him.

Feel free to put your opinions up for scrutiny. I realize that that's more difficult.
Hrudey was an average goaltender - his longevity helped him pad his wins total, but that just puts him alongside guys like Wregget, Salo, Roloson, Millen... not money goaltenders like CuJo.

And I guess my point for bringing it up is that in a small sample set of opinions - these outliers really compromise the integrity - you like Hrudey, hence he's there in the convo. I have a Rick Wamsley jersey (believe it or not) from back in the day. I don't think he belongs on any list anywhere, though.

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Old
11-13-2013, 10:51 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Hrudey was an average goaltender - his longevity helped him pad his wins total, but that just puts him alongside guys like Wregget, Salo, Roloson, Millen... not money goaltenders like CuJo.
Hrudey's prime was in one of the highest-scoring eras in the league's history. Some of that (obviously) is the fault of the goaltenders, but how much of it?

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:11 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Hrudey's prime was in one of the highest-scoring eras in the league's history. Some of that (obviously) is the fault of the goaltenders, but how much of it?
I know his GAA is high, but that isn't at all why I value him less than you do. I just watched him play, and in the games I watched I saw a decent, average, solid goaltender. He played for a while, but he was never dominant, and he never seemed like the guy that opposing players would be talking about in a locker room before the game - 'uh oh, we've got Hrudey tonight!'

During the time he was in the league, in any given year there could have been maybe 10-15 goaltenders you would arguably want to have on your team ahead of him.

I'll even try to name them so you can rip me apart. Randomly selecting 1989 as his midway point in the league:
Roy
Casey
McLean
Ranford
Burke
Moog
Barasso
Belfour
Peeters
Vanbiesbrouck
Hextall
Vernon
Fuhr

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11-13-2013, 11:15 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Yeah, my opinion might be wrong, and you can laugh or rip it to pieces - but at least it is founded on something - because you and I've seen the guys play.
So you can defend the statement that "Marty is one of the two best goaltenders of all time" because you have seen every goaltender of all-time, but you don't want to hear us talk about Vezina. That's a no-no. Huh.

I mean, do you not see the contradiction?

I can point it out again.

It's right under the indefensible statement about Scott Stevens.

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:17 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
He played for a while, but he was never dominant, and he never seemed like the guy that opposing players would be talking about in a locker room before the game - 'uh oh, we've got Hrudey tonight!'

During the time he was in the league, in any given year there could have been maybe 10-15 goaltenders you would arguably want to have on your team ahead of him.
Try randomly selecting 1987. You know, around the time of the Canada Cup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
these outliers really compromise the integrity - you like Hrudey, hence he's there in the convo. I have a Rick Wamsley jersey (believe it or not) from back in the day. I don't think he belongs on any list anywhere, though.
Do you have a Scott Stevens jersey?

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:19 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Yeah, my opinion might be wrong, and you can laugh or rip it to pieces - but at least it is founded on something - because you and I've seen the guys play.
Research has also showed that people rewrite history with each recounting of a story - and that human 'memory' is almost too susceptible to suggestion as to be trusted.

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Old
11-13-2013, 11:23 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Try randomly selecting 1987. You know, around the time of the Canada Cup.




Do you have a Scott Stevens jersey?
No, I don't. But I have a Sean Burke jersey.

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11-13-2013, 11:27 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
So you can defend the statement that "Marty is one of the two best goaltenders of all time" because you have seen every goaltender of all-time, but you don't want to hear us talk about Vezina. That's a no-no. Huh.

I mean, do you not see the contradiction?

I can point it out again.

It's right under the indefensible statement about Scott Stevens.
No, I can't defend that statement. I should have been much more precise.

In the modern era - by the most common metrics, it is a three horse race - so I should have said, "In my opinion, Marty is one of the three best goaltenders of the modern era".

Hasek always enters the equation as Sanders does in football - he's probably the greatest to watch.
Roy has the playoff success.
Marty has all of the other numbers.

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11-13-2013, 11:28 PM
  #316
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No, I don't. But I have a Sean Burke jersey.
Love Sean Burke - I've got a Whalers and Devils sweater for him.

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11-13-2013, 11:30 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
In the modern era - by the most common metrics, it is a three horse race - so I should have said, "In my opinion, Marty is one of the three best goaltenders of the modern era".
Depending upon how far back you consider the modern era to go, I agree with this completely (for instance, if you mean the post-original six era) - I also think that most would (some would put Dryden ahead of Brodeur).

We don't seem to be as far apart on this as you initially thought.

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11-13-2013, 11:30 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
No, I don't. But I have a Sean Burke jersey.
I'm still waiting for an answer on how you reconcile the following statements:

Quote:
Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Marty is one of the two best goaltenders of all time
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
I'll permit myself an opinion on who I've seen play and won't pretend that a list of accolades or a few newspaper articles or Stan Fischler's opinion is going to give me an accurate read on someone's career.
How is it that four months ago, you possessed the ability to rate Brodeur's career under the context of all-time (which includes Vezina and "Horecek") - but somehow now are being overly critical of us for doing the same?

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11-13-2013, 11:31 PM
  #319
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No, I can't defend that statement.
And that's why I'm in litigation.

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11-13-2013, 11:32 PM
  #320
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Can we all just hug it out?

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11-13-2013, 11:33 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Love Sean Burke - I've got a Whalers and Devils sweater for him.
*mumbles quietly about my Phoenix Coyotes jersey*

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11-13-2013, 11:33 PM
  #322
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And that's why I'm in litigation.
clearly.

I should watch all statements I make from here on out for fear of reprisals at a later date.

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11-13-2013, 11:33 PM
  #323
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Can we all just hug it out?
Only if we agree that Sean Burke was the best goaltender in the world from 2000-2004.

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11-13-2013, 11:37 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Can we all just hug it out?
yeah, I'm all for that.

Sorry for the noise. It's Rangers-Devils hangover. Takes at least three days to come down off of the hate.

I think everyone who watches a goalie for a long time HATES the fact that other fans only get to see the highlights - and not the consistent day-to-day.

Brodeur is on his hot streak now not because of any positioning, nor the saves he's making and certainly not because of the crappy D in front of him. It's because he's playing 3rd Defenseman and no team can stay in the zone for more than the time it takes for him to make an outlet pass. It's just been ridiculous to watch.

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11-13-2013, 11:38 PM
  #325
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Only if we agree that Sean Burke was the best goaltender in the world from 2000-2004.
My green Christmas tree #1 jersey concurs.

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