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Contract extension talks for Subban AND Diaz have started

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Old
11-14-2013, 10:53 AM
  #251
Saundies
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Lol, some of you guys wouldn't trade Subban for Crosby? No wonder we get made fun of for being homers sometimes, wow. "Best player in the world? Nah I'll pass thanks."

I'm not a fan of Diaz at all, and yes I do watch every game. The guy just doesn't bring anything to the table for me, especially not enough to warrant a contract extension this early in the year. He's average/below average on pretty much everything he does. Some people call him a PP specialist.. really? How many PP points does this guy have to warrant that title? The guy shoots like he practices taking shots on a soccer net because the puck is usually 2-3 feet wide every single time. Not to mention he's easily our softest D on the back end right now (including Markov). Whatever this guy makes is only gonna take away from Subban and Markov could be making. That, plus the fact that we've got a decent D pipeline coming up.... It doesn't make any sense to me to resign him.

Subban: Pay him what he's worth, and don't you dare mess it up, Marc.

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11-14-2013, 11:38 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
Lol, some of you guys wouldn't trade Subban for Crosby? No wonder we get made fun of for being homers sometimes, wow. "Best player in the world? Nah I'll pass thanks."

I'm not a fan of Diaz at all, and yes I do watch every game. The guy just doesn't bring anything to the table for me, especially not enough to warrant a contract extension this early in the year. He's average/below average on pretty much everything he does. Some people call him a PP specialist.. really? How many PP points does this guy have to warrant that title? The guy shoots like he practices taking shots on a soccer net because the puck is usually 2-3 feet wide every single time. Not to mention he's easily our softest D on the back end right now (including Markov). Whatever this guy makes is only gonna take away from Subban and Markov could be making. That, plus the fact that we've got a decent D pipeline coming up.... It doesn't make any sense to me to resign him.

Subban: Pay him what he's worth, and don't you dare mess it up, Marc.
I think they see a young Markov in Diaz and while i agree he's an average d-man, he has shown flashes of being very effective. For me, he's a guy who has the potential to be a complete puck moving defenseman but who has softness and constancy issues.

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11-14-2013, 11:49 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
research would have told you that, since the imposed cap, there's been no 10M players, and not many 9M players (can you figure out who?)...
But the question was whether PK thinks he's worth Crosby or not, so the your factoid of no player signing for 10m is irrelevant. If he thinks he's worth Crosby then he would ask for 10,9m which he will not. If he asks for 9m he's not implying he's worth Crosby or anyone really, he'll just be asking for too much money.

I think 60m over 8 years is more than fair imo (7.5x8). If the habs can use EK's contract as a guideline then even better, although he gave a pretty good hometown discount to the sens at 6.5m a year.

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11-14-2013, 11:59 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
That's taking homerism to a whole new level. I love PK, but Crosby is the best player in the league...
Best player in the league? Ya? Is he better than PK at defending? Is he better than Budaj in nets??
You don't compare apples and oranges. PK is one of the best Dman in the league.
It all comes down to what you value more, and for me defenseman such as PK are a lot more valuable. That's why teams have no problem winning with less talented guys up front. But every team need their rock Dman in order to win. You don't win cups without a Keith, Chara, Doughty, Lidstrom, but you do win some without Crosby-like talent up front.
So ya, I value my Dmen more than my centers.

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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
Lol, some of you guys wouldn't trade Subban for Crosby? No wonder we get made fun of for being homers sometimes, wow. "Best player in the world? Nah I'll pass thanks."
Best player is also one big concussion away from retirement but who needs to look at this when you're talking about trading a 24yo Norris winner never injured.

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Old
11-14-2013, 12:05 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
research would have told you that, since the imposed cap, there's been no 10M players, and not many 9M players (can you figure out who?)...
The cap also started at 39M. It's now almost double that.
We also have a new CBA that doesn't allow cap circumvention. The salaries are going as high as 14M a year but with a cap hit under 8M under the previous CBA. There will be no more of this, and by the looks of things, it doesn't appear like teams will hold back from giving huge raises. I mean, we're seeing guys like Clarksson get big term with big dollars. We're seeing a PF that scored 3 goals sign a 5year deal just short of 5M per.
Safe to say, the cap hits and salaries will continue to rise.
Not that I think PK will get that much, but I do believe the league is headed in that direction.

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Old
11-14-2013, 12:30 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Cap hit in 2008-2009: 56.7m
Cap hit in 2014-2015: 68m (assuming it goes up by at least 2.7m, entirely plausible)

9m in 2008: 16%
9m in 2014: 13%

If he was worth Crosby, he would be making 10.9m...a bit of research goes a long way
Assumption does not equal research. I prefer to deal with the facts as they are now, not what may or may not occur under hopeful/ideal circumstances.

The fact is that the best player in the game does not make 9 million a year. So I think it would be ridiculous for any other player to expect that much, until/unless the cap actually does go up substantially.

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11-14-2013, 12:52 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
"Do you think you're a better player than Sidney Crosby?"

7 to 8 million a year is perfectly fair. Unless Subban and/or his agent are unreasonable (or have no commitment whatsoever to Montreal), then I'm sure he'd take it. I just hope MB has enough sense to offer it.
Can't compare Crosby's cap hit to any new contracts, big fallacy here.

Crosby's is front loaded, his salary is 12M, and doesn't drop below 9M for 8 more seasons. It's the same things as when Malkin was signed, his cap hit is higher than Crosby's too. Subban won't be getting 12M a year but to say that he shouldn't get a higher cap hit than Crosby on principle doesn't make sense because the front loading era is over. Is Crosby only worth 75k more than Corey Perry? Only 700k more than Getzlaf? Worth less than Malkin? Of course not, he gets paid more and his cap hit is lower because of a loophole that's now been closed. Don't get caught up in cap hit vs salary.

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Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
Assumption does not equal research. I prefer to deal with the facts as they are now, not what may or may not occur under hopeful/ideal circumstances.

The fact is that the best player in the game does not make 9 million a year. So I think it would be ridiculous for any other player to expect that much, until/unless the cap actually does go up substantially.
As said, the fact is the best player in the game makes 12 million a year and won't make less than 9 million a year for a long time.


Last edited by Noob616: 11-14-2013 at 01:00 PM.
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Old
11-14-2013, 01:39 PM
  #258
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People making the same mistakes with Diaz as they did with Gorges. Neither player is top 2 pairing dman but are treated like it around here..... Diaz is decent, he's just not right for this team.
I think you should watch other teams and look at what guys they have playing top 4 minutes. Gorges and Diaz are legit top 4 NHL d-men. Are you giubg to win a cup with both in your top 4? Probably not but just because you sign them doesn't mean they can't be traded if you develop a better player from your prospects.

I think if you can sign Diaz 4 years and 12 mil you do it quick, at least you're protected if you can't sign Markov. Then if the sitation warrants trading a d-man next summer or during next season(with cap going up, creating more demand) you have a tradeable asset.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Diaz has 7 points and is +3 in 19 games with limited minutes and salary, I dont get why so many hate him.
Limited minutes? He's been playing 20:58 per game, that's #3 d-man minutes.

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Originally Posted by Marc-E- View Post
I'm sure the two first years of Subban contract's will be two years of transition. Like 6.5M the first 7M the next. It will give time to sponge as the cap grow. After those two first year it will be at 8M IMO.
The cap hit doesn't change for his whole contract. Even if it's back loaded, it's total dollars/total years=cap hit.

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Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
Here's something to think about. I think the realists here have quietly accepted 8million per season for subban but what if he asks for more, say 9? He might get that much on the open market. Would you give him 9 per year?

You have to consider that weber and suter are effectively getting 9-10 per year with those long term front loaded contracts.
At 9 mil per year I'd let him sit. I would use Karlsson Doughty Letang and co as comparables. I would start at 6.5 x 8 years and go from there. Ideally 8 x 7=56 mil, worst case 60 mil over 8.

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Originally Posted by Spearmint Rhino View Post
8 x $6.5MM, puts PK in the Karlsson & Doughty world - dont want to turn this into a debate about where each of those 3 rank, that'll be MBs & Meehans job but I don't see Subban getting above $7MM offer- from the Habs anyways and keeps Price tied for highest paid
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
But the question was whether PK thinks he's worth Crosby or not, so the your factoid of no player signing for 10m is irrelevant. If he thinks he's worth Crosby then he would ask for 10,9m which he will not. If he asks for 9m he's not implying he's worth Crosby or anyone really, he'll just be asking for too much money.

I think 60m over 8 years is more than fair imo (7.5x8). If the habs can use EK's contract as a guideline then even better, although he gave a pretty good hometown discount to the sens at 6.5m a year.

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11-14-2013, 01:46 PM
  #259
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I don't know about Diaz. How bad can he be when he leads our defensemen in GA/60 while on even strength AND the penalty kill while having the lowest Off. Zone start %?


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11-14-2013, 01:50 PM
  #260
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I'll repeat myself, I have no problem with Diaz. As long as he is in a bottom pairing role, you can do a lot worse, and he shows just the right amount of offensive ability that can allow him to be a tradeable asset should he have no more use for us.

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11-14-2013, 01:53 PM
  #261
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I did not read the whole thread so I don't know if i'm completly off-topic.

Regarding Diaz, I am not a big fan of his. But he needs to be signed given the fact of how hard/expansive it is to sign FA defensemen. Now I am pretty sure many poeple are probably saying in this thread how we should let him walk to make room for Tinordi/Beaulieu. If there's one thing I've learned from many years of following NHL is that the young players need to make room for themselves, not management. Yeah, we need the presence of Tinordi. But we need the presence of a Tinordi that pushed Murray/Bouillon/Diaz to the pressbox, like Bournival did to some of the vets
This makes too much logical sense to be used on this issue. I laugh when I see people diss Diaz but he is part of a great PK.

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11-14-2013, 01:58 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by BLASPHEMOUS View Post
I'll repeat myself, I have no problem with Diaz. As long as he is in a bottom pairing role, (...).
Why do we want a second diminutive player as a third pairing guy (with Gorges), when our defensive corps is already size-challenged?

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11-14-2013, 02:00 PM
  #263
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Why do we want a second diminutive player as a third pairing guy (with Gorges), when our defensive corps is already size-challenged?
Gorges-Diaz would be one of the best 3rd pairings in the NHL IMO.

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11-14-2013, 02:01 PM
  #264
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Diaz is much better than Bouillon, Drewiski and Murray so if it's a choice between these players I want Diaz. However, if it's at the expense of one of the kids earning a spot I'd be less than thrilled.

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11-14-2013, 02:05 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
Gorges-Diaz would be one of the best 3rd pairings in the NHL IMO.
So let's say he signs for 3.5M x 3 years , so you're paying 7.4 M a year for a 3rd pairing? That's abit ridiculous.

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11-14-2013, 02:12 PM
  #266
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So let's say he signs for 3.5M x 3 years , so you're paying 7.4 M a year for a 3rd pairing? That's abit ridiculous.
Ya I agree. Just saying though, that it would be a great 3rd pairing.

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11-14-2013, 02:19 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Avim86 View Post
So let's say he signs for 3.5M x 3 years , so you're paying 7.4 M a year for a 3rd pairing? That's abit ridiculous.
They wouldn't be the 3rd pairing, though? I don't know if they'd play together or not, but at least one of them would be nominally 2nd pairing, and probably with injuries they'd still average out to 2nd pairing minutes, with only 3 guys ahead of them. Having 5 top-4 options would be a good thing.

And the Habs should sign Subban for $61.414141414141etcM/8yrs. Or just say $60.8M/8yrs.

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11-14-2013, 02:25 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Why do we want a second diminutive player as a third pairing guy (with Gorges), when our defensive corps is already size-challenged?
Because we are not in contention yet so I could give less of a damn at the moment as to his size? Like I said, if he is not to be on our team in times of contention, then he has shown enough to be an asset elsewhere, and I would much rather have him than the other guys right now.

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11-14-2013, 02:27 PM
  #269
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Because we are not in contention yet so I could give less of a damn at the moment as to his size?
It's not about the damn you give, but the opportunity cost of who we might land in his place.

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11-14-2013, 02:28 PM
  #270
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It's not about the damn you give, but the opportunity cost of who we might land in his place.
And who will land in his place right now, exactly? Please, it is actually a genuine question, not trying to dismiss it.

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11-14-2013, 02:52 PM
  #271
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It's not about the damn you give, but the opportunity cost of who we might land in his place.
If we listen to some of the fans on here we'd be giving 5 mil per year over 5-6 years to Girardi. Which would be an albatross and lot worse than 3-4 years at 3-3.25/year to Diaz.

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11-14-2013, 04:08 PM
  #272
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If we listen to some of the fans on here we'd be giving 5 mil per year over 5-6 years to Girardi. Which would be an albatross and lot worse than 3-4 years at 3-3.25/year to Diaz.
LOL. Are you serious?

Girardi is arguably the d-man on this Rangers squad I would pick first if I had to choose - yeah, even before McDonagh.

Diaz is nowhere near his level. He's worst in everything, except almost having one of his teammates killed.

I'd rather pay 7 * 6.5M for Girardi, than anything near that amount for Diaz.

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11-14-2013, 04:14 PM
  #273
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LOL. Are you serious?

Girardi is arguably the d-man on this Rangers squad I would pick first if I had to choose - yeah, even before McDonagh.

Diaz is nowhere near his level. He's worst in everything, except almost having one of his teammates killed.

I'd rather pay 7 * 6.5M for Girardi, than anything near that amount for Diaz.
Girardi is a solid d-man but not worth the 5-5.5 mil over 5-6 years he will cost in free agency. Just making the point that I'd rather sign Diaz to a good contract(around 3 for 2-3-4 years) than overpay and have an albatross from UFA. A good contract means a tradeable asset. A bad contract is dead cap space.

The Rangers defense is solid, but nothing special. They look good when the team plays their tight defensive system and Lundquist plays like an all-star. They are similar to Boston in that sense.

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11-14-2013, 04:15 PM
  #274
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Don't understand the hate for Diaz. He's not great but he's far from terrible.

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11-14-2013, 04:18 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The cap also started at 39M. It's now almost double that.
We also have a new CBA that doesn't allow cap circumvention. The salaries are going as high as 14M a year but with a cap hit under 8M under the previous CBA. There will be no more of this, and by the looks of things, it doesn't appear like teams will hold back from giving huge raises. I mean, we're seeing guys like Clarksson get big term with big dollars. We're seeing a PF that scored 3 goals sign a 5year deal just short of 5M per.
Safe to say, the cap hits and salaries will continue to rise.
Not that I think PK will get that much, but I do believe the league is headed in that direction.
I know that, but there's still no player with a 10M cap hit... and only 1 player with a 9M cap hit (2 next season)...

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