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How far are we from winning the cup?

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Old
11-14-2013, 11:43 AM
  #26
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1. Maturity of youngsters
2. Two more top 4 D-men
3. A better defined top-nine, i.e. a clear top-six and two-way line, with fourth liners that get it done

Montreal is in a good position for the future, and now that drafting has been a success it is free agent signings and trading that will make the difference from here.

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11-14-2013, 11:44 AM
  #27
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the oilers are closer

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11-14-2013, 11:46 AM
  #28
Smoky Thompson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
Not buying this. Role players are rarely the problem.

Our fourth line is fine with Moen and Prust on it. Ideally we would upgrade the fourth line centre from Desharnais, obviously

We have a perfectly decent bottom pairing D. But they are currently the 3/4 D....
You're going to tell me that Boston's 4th line didnt play a big role in the Bruins them making the Finals last season?

You're going to tell me Andrew Shaw, Bickell, Frolik didn't play a big role in the Hawks winning the cup?

Moen was a huge factor in the Ducks winning the cup back when he was breaking into the league.

The importance of role players is huge when playoffs come around.

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11-14-2013, 11:48 AM
  #29
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Ideally Gorges-Diaz is a third pairing, so a top 4 right handed Hamrlik type D to play with Emelin. Also replacing DD with a real third line center. Upgrading Gionta would help too.

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11-14-2013, 11:48 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Breadman View Post
we lack size, skill, physicality, defense and yeah we are really really far from winning a cup
Our best players might be too young, but if EGG can produce like this in the playoffs... this is their first full season and it's a compact schedule, so that's a tall order.

If that is yes, and Emelin and Markov can be 100% (and Emelin shows some offensive upside). And Tinordi is able to take a top 4 role, pushing Gorges to the third pairing...

If Waite can help Price find the next level...

If Bourque turns back into a 27 goal scorer. If Plekanec turns back into the guy that shut Crosby down in the playoffs. If Gionta gets his rockets back. If Briere pulls playoff rabbits out of his helmet.

If we can pick up a couple studs with size/experience at the deadline.

If we can stay healthy and get lucky with playoff matchups.

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11-14-2013, 11:49 AM
  #31
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We need to steal another d-man in the draft, like we did in 2007 with Mcdo and Subban.
Then, let's just hope Bergevin make some depth moves that makes sense.

I'd say we're far from winning the cup, but things change easily in the NHL.

We're on the right path with a franchise d-man, goalie and potentially center. It's all about drafting and depth moves.

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Old
11-14-2013, 11:50 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
You're going to tell me that Boston's 4th line didnt play a big role in the Bruins them making the Finals last season?

You're going to tell me Andrew Shaw, Bickell, Frolik didn't play a big role in the Hawks winning the cup?

Moen was a huge factor in the Ducks winning the cup back when he was breaking into the league.

The importance of role players is huge when playoffs come around.
I think Pahlsson and Niedermayer are what made that line work so well defensively. Moen was complementary muscle. He did well at it, but he was not the cerebral component of that line.

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11-14-2013, 11:53 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
I think Pahlsson and Niedermayer are what made that line work so well defensively. Moen was complementary muscle. He did well at it, but he was not the cerebral component of that line.
Can't disagree with this. Point being, that defensive line was a big part of the Ducks cup run.

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11-14-2013, 11:58 AM
  #34
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We're not that far, but the pieces we are missing do not come cheap:
(a) A well-rounded blueliner. Not a Subban, but a Subban-lite who can play physical and make a decent first pass out of the zone. Ideally a guy to play on the second pairing with Emelin (while Gorges and Diaz round out our top six).
(b) A consistent, scoring winger. I like Gallagher, but I have doubts about his ability to maintain his offensive prowess as his minutes increase. He takes a beating out there. Doesn't necessarily have to be a power forward, go to the net guy (in fact a bit of a dangler would help in the shoot out) nor does he have to be a superstar forward but a guy who can play in the top two lines.
(c) An offensive centre who can win a faceoff. Eller at just north of 52% is not good enough IMHO. We need a guy who is closer to sixty than fifty.

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11-14-2013, 11:58 AM
  #35
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We'll win the cup when:
-Our top 3 centers are Galchenyuk, Plekanec, Eller
-Our top 3 centers are surrounded by good wingers
-We get rid of low puck possession players such as Briere and Desharnais.
-Tinordi becomes a beast that will chase Gorges off the top 4.
-Our 4th line is able to play good defensive hockey and bang hard in the forecheck at the same time.

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11-14-2013, 12:05 PM
  #36
Beendair Donedat
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What we need to be Stanley Cup Contenders/Champs:

1- A Genuine Sniper/FInisher. Who is the last one we've had?
2- A Genuine First Line. The closest we have is the EGG line and they aren't there yet.
3- More than Subban and Markov on defense. Subban and Markov are a legitimate number one pairing, but it drops off sharply after that.... You're going to need a very solid second pairing (Emelin and very solid right handed defenseman with size that can score)

4- SIZE. We're playing with far too many passengers and smurfs. Desharnais, Briere, Gionta, and Gallagher is 3 too many small guys in the top 9.

So basically we are at least 3 years IMO from being legitimate contenders. When Galchenyuk, Gallagher are in their third contracts, Subban, Pacioretty, Price, Eller are vets, and you're getting solid support from young veterans like Bournival, Tinordi, Beaulieu, McCarron, etc....

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Old
11-14-2013, 12:06 PM
  #37
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having good talented team on paper means nothing. we could be another 25 years away from #25.
who knows

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Old
11-14-2013, 12:08 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcv View Post
A functionnal 4th line and bottom pairing.

They were within one goal of both San Jose and St Louis, who are both powerhouses.

So if Bergevin was to wake the **** up and trade for a good 4th liner and a good bottom pairing D, the Habs would be in business.
Wow! It's so simple! What is Bergevin doing? We only need a couple of 4th liners and below average defensemen!



Back on topic, I'd say we need an upgrade in our top4 D. Subban/Markov is fine. Emelin is OK as #4 on a contending team. But we really need something better than Gorges to complete our top 4 if we are to contend. That being said, Gorges can be a great #5-6 on a contender.

Forwards: I have no problem with Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Plekanec and Patches in our top 6. Sitll have some doubts about Eller. He's in the top 9 of a contending team, for sure, but maybe not top 6, as it would mean he's a 2nd line center on a contender. So yeah, probably another top6 forward.

Goals: If Price plays like he's doing this year, no problem.

All in all, we have some good pieces (Price, Subban, Patches, Plek, the Gallys, Eller) and time is maybe what this team needs more. Our core is relatively young and prospects might come in and patch some of our holes.

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Old
11-14-2013, 12:20 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaivuN View Post
We'll win the cup when:
-Our top 3 centers are Galchenyuk, Plekanec, Eller
-Our top 3 centers are surrounded by good wingers
-We get rid of low puck possession players such as Briere and Desharnais.
-Tinordi becomes a beast that will chase Gorges off the top 4.
-Our 4th line is able to play good defensive hockey and bang hard in the forecheck at the same time.
If we win a cup, it will be those 3 guys as our top centers. Basically it's a matter of when Galchenyuk is ready for the #1 spot.

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Old
11-14-2013, 12:39 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrontierPsyCHiatrist View Post
We need to steal another d-man in the draft, like we did in 2007 with Mcdo and Subban.
Then, let's just hope Bergevin make some depth moves that makes sense.

I'd say we're far from winning the cup, but things change easily in the NHL.

We're on the right path with a franchise d-man, goalie and potentially center. It's all about drafting and depth moves.
Potentially nothing, Galchenyuk is the real deal.

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11-14-2013, 12:43 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
If we win a cup, it will be those 3 guys as our top centers. Basically it's a matter of when Galchenyuk is ready for the #1 spot.
I think you are right on the money.

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Cammalleri-Plekanec-Gionta
Briere/Bournival-Eller-Bourque
Moen-White-Prust
Parros

Gorges-PK
Markov-Emelin
Tinordi/Murray-Diaz/Bouillon


Trade deadline...Cammalleri would slip in there nicely. I don't see any UFA Dmen in the West that we could grab tho...so we're stuck with Diaz or Bouillon.


Last edited by tinyzombies: 11-14-2013 at 12:54 PM.
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Old
11-14-2013, 12:46 PM
  #42
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A major rebuild and a minimum of at least five years away. Problem is, management won't allow a drop to the bottom to do a correct rebuild so it will be never at this rate.

It is not just how good you think your team is and how much it has improved, it is how good your team is relative to the other 29 teams and how much they have improved. Right now, Montreal is stuck in the middle, not getting any better against the other teams who are also improving as well nor getting worse to be able to get better players via the draft. Montreal now is a treadmill team running hard but getting nowhere against the other teams, and with the present philosophy of the Habs management to satisfy the media and always try for a winner, they will remain that middle level treadmill team.

As well, the Habs keep saying they are going to rebuild through the draft, but if Montreal is going to rebuild a team via a draft that is better than other teams, it has to have draft results that are better than other team's drafts as well. However the draft results of recent years are hardly stellar compared to other teams. In the drafts since 2008, Montreal has only Galchenyuk and Gallagher who are quality players from the draft and that is not enough top players. (Yes they did get Eller for Halak who was drafted in 2003, but that was a result of a draft ten years ago.)

Look at the players drafted in the last five years aside from Galchenyuk and Gallagher. First round: 2008 - Thomas(Kristo) - in the minors; 2009 -Louis leblanc - up and down and average at best; 2010 - Jared Tinordi - back down and looking slow and average at best; 2011 - Nathan Beaulieu - 11 games and OK, but no star, a good average; 2012 - Galchenyuk - good but he was the can't miss third pick; 2013 -McCarron - big slow and you have to wearing homer glasses to see star in him or anybody else in that draft besides Fucale. For players beyond the first round, aside from Gallagher, none are playing in the NHL.

In 2007 they hit the jackpot with Pacioretty and Subban and even McDonagh and these are the kind of draft results that are needed every year if they are going to improve by the draft. At the rate they are going, and with the few and far between gems they do get that they need to improve with, by the time they get them, guys like Subban and Eller will be retired. All teams garner stars here and there, but if your draft is average compared to other teams, and you draft mostly average players, you end up with an average team.

Montreal needs to realize this is not the last century and change its philosophy to get the best management available if it wants the best results, and not just get ones who can speak to the local French media. They also definitely, definitely, have to do better in the draft if they want to win by the draft, else this team will just go on being mediocre forever.

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Old
11-14-2013, 12:59 PM
  #43
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I think McCarron has potential. He has good vision and his skating is not bad for this point in development for a big man. Good vision means good hockey sense. And I like his rough attitude. I think he's a player.

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Old
11-14-2013, 01:03 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Realistically, with Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Eller up front and some recent draft picks as well and Subban, Gorges, Tinordi, Beaulieu on the back end and Price in goal, how are are we from winning the cup?

I think we are at least 3 seasons away from being a contender in the finals because at that point we will also have Tinordi, Beaulieu, Thrower, McCarron, Thomas, Collberg, De La Rose etc. playing in the NHL (hopefully).

Maybe even Fucale ;-)
not even close folks

we have too many holes , lack grit , warriors , role players , we don't have that the lineup to win 4 rounds of attrition

our D overall is not built to win in the playoffs . Pk is great , Emelin a legit top 4
Gorges should be a third pairing guy , excluding the kids for now the rest I don't want on this team

upfront size and grit is a major issue

Pleks and Max are fine but not winners come playoff time , Pleks has never elevated his game when it counts

so its the kid line and questions everywhere

look at Chicago , their role players were Oduya, Rosival , Shaw, Bolland , Kruger , Frolik , Bickel , etc to go with a top 5 player in Towes , a top 10 winger in Kane , a top D man in Keith and a true shut down D in Seebrook

sorry to burst our bubble we don't have that to go with our core , we are still trying to establish a legit core

we are a decent team but contenders we are not ...not yet

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11-14-2013, 01:07 PM
  #45
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We are 3 points out of 2nd in the conference not even 20 games into an 82 game season having gone thru a tonne of injuries.

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11-14-2013, 01:07 PM
  #46
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63 games + playoffs

Damn straight.

(I've always been overly optimistic)
So 79 games?

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Old
11-14-2013, 01:10 PM
  #47
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not even close folks

we have too many holes , lack grit , warriors , role players , we don't have that the lineup to win 4 rounds of attrition

our D overall is not built to win in the playoffs . Pk is great , Emelin a legit top 4
Gorges should be a third pairing guy , excluding the kids for now the rest I don't want on this team

upfront size and grit is a major issue

Pleks and Max are fine but not winners come playoff time , Pleks has never elevated his game when it counts

so its the kid line and questions everywhere

look at Chicago , their role players were Oduya, Rosival , Shaw, Bolland , Kruger , Frolik , Bickel , etc to go with a top 5 player in Towes , a top 10 winger in Kane , a top D man in Keith and a true shut down D in Seebrook

sorry to burst our bubble we don't have that to go with our core , we are still trying to establish a legit core

we are a decent team but contenders we are not ...not yet
Max and Pleks need the right complement of players too. We haven't seen that yet.

The thing that hurts is that Bergevin signed Briere and Desharnais and kept Gionta. So our problems are compounded up front. I don't think he envisioned the Gallys being ready so soon (if they are).

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11-14-2013, 01:12 PM
  #48
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We are 3 points out of 2nd in the conference not even 20 games into an 82 game season having gone thru a tonne of injuries.
The injuries won't stop though, this is a small, fragile lineup in places and we're asking our D to block a million shots in a compact schedule year (hopefully that strategy will ease up now that we are getting to full strength, but collapsing seems to be part of the recovery aspect of a puck pressure system?).

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11-14-2013, 01:12 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Ditchweed View Post
A major rebuild and a minimum of at least five years away. Problem is, management won't allow a drop to the bottom to do a correct rebuild so it will be never at this rate.

It is not just how good you think your team is and how much it has improved, it is how good your team is relative to the other 29 teams and how much they have improved. Right now, Montreal is stuck in the middle, not getting any better against the other teams who are also improving as well nor getting worse to be able to get better players via the draft. Montreal now is a treadmill team running hard but getting nowhere against the other teams, and with the present philosophy of the Habs management to satisfy the media and always try for a winner, they will remain that middle level treadmill team.

As well, the Habs keep saying they are going to rebuild through the draft, but if Montreal is going to rebuild a team via a draft that is better than other teams, it has to have draft results that are better than other team's drafts as well. However the draft results of recent years are hardly stellar compared to other teams. In the drafts since 2008, Montreal has only Galchenyuk and Gallagher who are quality players from the draft and that is not enough top players. (Yes they did get Eller for Halak who was drafted in 2003, but that was a result of a draft ten years ago.)

Look at the players drafted in the last five years aside from Galchenyuk and Gallagher. First round: 2008 - Thomas(Kristo) - in the minors; 2009 -Louis leblanc - up and down and average at best; 2010 - Jared Tinordi - back down and looking slow and average at best; 2011 - Nathan Beaulieu - 11 games and OK, but no star, a good average; 2012 - Galchenyuk - good but he was the can't miss third pick; 2013 -McCarron - big slow and you have to wearing homer glasses to see star in him or anybody else in that draft besides Fucale. For players beyond the first round, aside from Gallagher, none are playing in the NHL.

In 2007 they hit the jackpot with Pacioretty and Subban and even McDonagh and these are the kind of draft results that are needed every year if they are going to improve by the draft. At the rate they are going, and with the few and far between gems they do get that they need to improve with, by the time they get them, guys like Subban and Eller will be retired. All teams garner stars here and there, but if your draft is average compared to other teams, and you draft mostly average players, you end up with an average team.

Montreal needs to realize this is not the last century and change its philosophy to get the best management available if it wants the best results, and not just get ones who can speak to the local French media. They also definitely, definitely, have to do better in the draft if they want to win by the draft, else this team will just go on being mediocre forever.
great post

they are too scared to take chances and the political landscape will keep them middle of the pack

this year is a great example , our D is terrible but we play Cube ,and Murray who are done , but wont play Tinordi and Pateryn who have some upside

the Briere signing made no sense , DD was a joke of signing , etc... and now we are talking of extending Markov and Diaz which make no sense now

look at Murray who had the stones to get Turris , and Ryan when the chance was there

go after Evander Kane if he is available , give them Max and others and see if they bite , we are too stubborn for change

Pleks is solid but seriously what are we going to win with him ?

have we not seen this same video for 7 years now , nice player but no jam or killer instinct when it matters .

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11-14-2013, 01:13 PM
  #50
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I don't see them being far. They could make a Carolina type run if Price got hot, they stayed relatively injury free and the team gelled at the right time with 1-2 more pieces.

The ideal cup window where they may be a top 4-5 team over 3-5 years would possibly open once Beaulieu and Tinordi become top 4 calibre and Galchenyuk becomes an 80 point guy. Obviously there are a fair bit of variables involved.

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