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How far are we from winning the cup?

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Old
11-14-2013, 02:36 PM
  #76
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far.

We have some pieces but we're very far away. It will remain that way as long as politics is involved in every decision. Winning is not the #1 thing here so...

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11-14-2013, 02:42 PM
  #77
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I think we are a 40 goal scoring winger, a nasty 4th line right wing and a top 3 defenseman away from being in the cup finals and here is how:

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher
40 goal scoring winger - Eller - Collberg
Bozon/Lehkonen/Hudon - Bournival - McCarron
Crisp - White/Dumont - Nasty 4th line right wing

Subban - Top 3 defenseman
Beaulieu - Emelin
Thrower/Ellis/Pateryn - Tinordi

Price
Fucale

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Old
11-14-2013, 02:43 PM
  #78
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As a coach, I'll do everything to convince Mike Babcock. But, I imagine that the medias will jump of the roof because he doesn't speak French. I met Babcock when he made the finals in 03 with the Ducks and he impressed me a lot. He was in Montreal for an event at the McGill university. I asked him if one day he would like to coach the Habs. He told: "You can't imagine how it would be a privilege to coach for that franchise." Times changed. I'm sure he's happy in Detroit. But you never know.

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11-14-2013, 02:47 PM
  #79
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Laviolette is available...

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11-14-2013, 02:49 PM
  #80
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we need to upgrade size and scoring on the wing and need a couple of Dmen to develop into nasty shutdown types.

we're not winning ANY 7 game series vs the bruins with gionta, desharnais, briere, bouillon and Diaz ALL in the lineup. way too small soft and easy to play against.

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Old
11-14-2013, 04:04 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Dagistitsyn View Post
Boullion I agree with. Garbage, shouldn't be playing anymore unless there's injuries. Murray though, is doing a fine job in his role and it gives Tinordi better playing time in the AHL which he has shown he still needs.
DD and Briere, agree completely. DD should be gone and Briere was a silly signing.
You don't let a player like Markov walk. Especially that he has shown he is still a great player for us. We don't have anyone to replace him and no one in Free Agency can do what Markov does for us.
You really believe Kane is that much of an upgrade over Pacioretty? I know he is in a slump right now but I don't know..
Again with Plekanec, I'm sure if they felt confident someone could replace him within the team he would be dealt for a top 2 D man.. but we simply don't have that luxury yet.
good post but here is my reasoning

Max is soft , no other way to explain it , he will never do what Kane does in playoffs , score big goals , make big plays

Markov you trade while he has value , its not a dump , its understanding we are not winning a cup with Markov now or 3 years from now

he was brutal in the playoffs , yes he has missed a lot of hockey but seriously if people think Markov has that extra gear in the playoffs for 4 rounds , it wont happen

Pleks I agree but what have we accomplished wish him ? he has never been a playoff warrior and will only deal him if the we get the right deal

we have Galchy , we have Eller , its not like we have nothing at C

so the point is simple ....we have been middle of the pack for a decade , no finals , etc..

team is what its is , we are too passive , and not willing to transition , too scared

its not a tank job because the lottery and draft guarantees you nothing , ask Edmonton what picks have gotten them , and the Pens were lucky to have 2 of the best 5 players in the game on one team , but this rarely happens

but what ticks me off is start somewhere , stop these stupid patch deals that get you know where from the Gio and Cammy signings , to DD to Briere , and now keeping AHL caliber D .

there is no excuse why Tinordi and Pateryn were not 5-6 guys this year .

Why cant Leblanc be a bottom 6 , is he worse than a finished Briere ?

why didn't we go after Raymond , hell he signed for nothing with TO

did we draft Nathan to play behind a useless Diaz who cant play when the going gets tough and now is looking at cashing in at 3-4 mil only to disappoint us again

I would rather be in the middle of the pack with players who might help us down the road , than keep doing what we are doing which is treading water

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Old
11-14-2013, 04:08 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I think we are a 40 goal scoring winger, a nasty 4th line right wing and a top 3 defenseman away from being in the cup finals and here is how:

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher
40 goal scoring winger - Eller - Collberg
Bozon/Lehkonen/Hudon - Bournival - McCarron
Crisp - White/Dumont - Nasty 4th line right wing

Subban - Top 3 defenseman
Beaulieu - Emelin
Thrower/Ellis/Pateryn - Tinordi

Price
Fucale
I like your reasoning but most of these kids right now cant be relied on at this point , way to much guessing and hope

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Old
11-14-2013, 04:09 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
we need to upgrade size and scoring on the wing and need a couple of Dmen to develop into nasty shutdown types.

we're not winning ANY 7 game series vs the bruins with gionta, desharnais, briere, bouillon and Diaz ALL in the lineup. way too small soft and easy to play against.
agreed and this wont change until MB and company make the changes and stop kicking the same can down the road

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Old
11-14-2013, 04:12 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Feintastic View Post
I always say it I dont wanna be negative but yeah... we're pretty faaaaar away unfortunately.

We need to tank at the prospects station for some years, I was honestly so mad that they finished 2nd last year...had to draft 25th its too far. I knew they would suck in the playoff anyway as usual they're not built for that its easy to predict, im just being realistic. ''Yaaaay we finished 2nd wow the Habs is a elite team'' ;playoff time; ''Not strong enough to win 1 round LMFAO''.

Unfortunately we had the big defenseman but Gainey traded him and Fischer was a flop. We would be in cadillac for the years to come with McDo and Subban. We have to get another one Bergevin knows it so he wanted to pick Samuel Morin but it didnt work thanks to our wonderful season, they had to overpay to get the top10 pick but off course he wasnt ready to pay the price, I dont care about his excuses.

Tinordi will never be a Ryan McDonagh, he's mobile, he will be good but he's a defensive guy.

Beaulieu ? Has all the tools but we all know his defensive game is a big interrogation for the future.

I think we have good futures 3rd-4th liners in the pipeline but there's no top3/top6... sure we have Lehkonen and Collberg but they're both under 6' tall and the big question is will they make it one day ? I feel like its gonna be a really long process with these guys.

Conlusion we have some good pieces to build around like Galchenyuk and Subban, Price.. etc.. but its far from enough.
very true , excellent post

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11-14-2013, 04:41 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Feintastic View Post
I always say it I dont wanna be negative but yeah... we're pretty faaaaar away unfortunately.

We need to tank at the prospects station for some years, I was honestly so mad that they finished 2nd last year...had to draft 25th its too far. I knew they would suck in the playoff anyway as usual they're not built for that its easy to predict, im just being realistic. ''Yaaaay we finished 2nd wow the Habs is a elite team'' ;playoff time; ''Not strong enough to win 1 round LMFAO''.

Unfortunately we had the big defenseman but Gainey traded him and Fischer was a flop. We would be in cadillac for the years to come with McDo and Subban. We have to get another one Bergevin knows it so he wanted to pick Samuel Morin but it didnt work thanks to our wonderful season, they had to overpay to get the top10 pick but off course he wasnt ready to pay the price, I dont care about his excuses.

Tinordi will never be a Ryan McDonagh, he's mobile, he will be good but he's a defensive guy.

Beaulieu ? Has all the tools but we all know his defensive game is a big interrogation for the future.

I think we have good futures 3rd-4th liners in the pipeline but there's no top3/top6... sure we have Lehkonen and Collberg but they're both under 6' tall and the big question is will they make it one day ? I feel like its gonna be a really long process with these guys.

Conlusion we have some good pieces to build around like Galchenyuk and Subban, Price.. etc.. but its far from enough.
don't bring up McDonough

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11-14-2013, 04:46 PM
  #86
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11-14-2013, 04:58 PM
  #87
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Meh, as expected, some of you are being overly pessimistic about the Habs' long term prospects for success given their slide in competitiveness over the past year. I don't think anyone would sit here and argue that the habs roster, as currently constructed, is a legitimate stanley cup contender, but at the same time it seems most of you have been conditioned to expect mediocrity out of this team based on the franchise's results over the past decade and a half.

Keep in mind the views I am about to espouse are ones that i have not normally held in my years as a habs fan. I have been following hockey for a long long time, and have been hovering around these boards for a long time as well. As far back as i can remember i have been pessimistic and sour about the Habs' chances for long term success, even during the good times. While none of that means i know things that others don't, I hope it puts in context just how atypical it is for me to be positive about the Habs.

Anyways, my main argument to those saying this team is eons away from competing regularly for the cup, my suggestion is to focus on what is different about this version of the Canadiens relative to past versions.

For instance, who was the last truly elite talent to play for the Canadiens? Was it Theodore based on his hart season? Koivu? Markov in his prime? Turgeon? Damphousse?

Point is we haven't really had true elite talent in quite some time. I truly do believe we have that in Subban and Price, and potentially in Galchenyuk. Subban's resume speaks for itself, and i think Price is finally starting to put the mental and physical packages together and is slowly ascending to the game's upper echelon of goalies. Galchenyuk so far looks like the best player from the 2012 draft class, and if he keeps progressing like he has, he will be a special player for years to come.

That's three players right there that i could envision becoming franchise cornerstones. Keep in mind that none of them are in their prime years yet and they are all slated to hit their peaks at roughly the same time (forwards develop earliest, dmen later, and goalies latest of all). Without looking at the rest of the roster i would say that's a pretty darn good start.

Does the Habs team of 2013/14 have serious issues? yes, for sure. But there is also a good deal of positive to counterbalance the negative and provide some good for the future:

- Outside of Desharnais, there isn't a single albatross contract on the Habs past 2015. Bourque is debatable, but most of the scapegoats for this year's troubles (Briere, Bouillon, Murray, Parros) are all slated to be gone by the end of next year at the latest. While Desharnais remains a lingering issue, keep in mind that the hawks were able to sign and then get rid of both Campbell and Huet who were on far worse deals.

- There are a solid crew of talented forwards: Pacioretty, Eller, Gallagher, Plekanec, Bournival all are, or look like, quality NHLers. Throw in Galchenyuk and you have 6 players that all look capable (or will be capable) of playing top 9 minutes for a contending team. Are the Habs short a few players (PUN not intended)? Yes of course. The cupboard was pretty bare a few years ago. But trades happen, prospects surprise, signings can happen...basically i think its reasonable to expect an improvement in this team's performance over the coming years based on internal growth alone.

- Our D, as it currently stands, will not be the D of the future. As i mentioned earlier, both Murray and Bouillon are off the books for next year, and if Emelin comes back strong, there are at least four defenseman capable of playing quality NHL minutes on the roster (i am likely higher on Gorges than most). Point being, not all of our prospects will pan out, but it would be foolish to assume that none of them will. As the Habs begin to lean less on stop-gaps (Which i actually think MB has planned for despite most people suggesting he's clueless) I think you will see our D corps come together and become above average. Look at LA's Defensemen when they won the cup...they didn't have much star power after Doughty but they played well as a unit in front of their all world goalie. I think we will have a defensive corps capable of doing the same thing in a few years' time.

To sum it up: I don't think that those of us who are optimistic about this team's future are being blind to reality and in fact think its quite the opposite. My optimism for the habs exists in spite of my severe skepticism for the franchise and the mediocrity its displayed over the past few decades. I think there is true elite talent in the system and that the Habs are finally at a point where their success will be determined by the complimentary moves they make, rather than blowing up the team and starting from scratch. There is alot left to be desired by this year's version of the Habs, but there is also alot to be excited about. At this point i no longer feel that the habs will need a miracle to be a contender, only a couple of good bounces.

And hey, if you can't hold out a (slightly) irrational hope that some breaks will go your team's way and that things will turn out for the better...what's the point of being a sports fan?

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11-14-2013, 05:18 PM
  #88
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You're cherrypicking because you don't agree with me. Stop acting like a child or I'll simply stop wasting my time with you and put you on my ignore list.


Quote:
Also, I agree that Parros won't be playing in the playoffs, but you said role player weren't the problem, and I proved you wrong by saying Parros, who is very much a role player, was a problem.
The actual title of the thread is 'how far are we from winning the cup'. So a player who won't be playing in the playoffs can't really have an impact on that one way or another, unless he's bad enough to be the difference between making or not making the playoffs in the first place. In which case the easy and obvious solution would be not to play him.

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Old
11-14-2013, 05:57 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Quagmier View Post
Meh, as expected, some of you are being overly pessimistic about the Habs' long term prospects for success given their slide in competitiveness over the past year. I don't think anyone would sit here and argue that the habs roster, as currently constructed, is a legitimate stanley cup contender, but at the same time it seems most of you have been conditioned to expect mediocrity out of this team based on the franchise's results over the past decade and a half.

Keep in mind the views I am about to espouse are ones that i have not normally held in my years as a habs fan. I have been following hockey for a long long time, and have been hovering around these boards for a long time as well. As far back as i can remember i have been pessimistic and sour about the Habs' chances for long term success, even during the good times. While none of that means i know things that others don't, I hope it puts in context just how atypical it is for me to be positive about the Habs.

Anyways, my main argument to those saying this team is eons away from competing regularly for the cup, my suggestion is to focus on what is different about this version of the Canadiens relative to past versions.

For instance, who was the last truly elite talent to play for the Canadiens? Was it Theodore based on his hart season? Koivu? Markov in his prime? Turgeon? Damphousse?

Point is we haven't really had true elite talent in quite some time. I truly do believe we have that in Subban and Price, and potentially in Galchenyuk. Subban's resume speaks for itself, and i think Price is finally starting to put the mental and physical packages together and is slowly ascending to the game's upper echelon of goalies. Galchenyuk so far looks like the best player from the 2012 draft class, and if he keeps progressing like he has, he will be a special player for years to come.

That's three players right there that i could envision becoming franchise cornerstones. Keep in mind that none of them are in their prime years yet and they are all slated to hit their peaks at roughly the same time (forwards develop earliest, dmen later, and goalies latest of all). Without looking at the rest of the roster i would say that's a pretty darn good start.

Does the Habs team of 2013/14 have serious issues? yes, for sure. But there is also a good deal of positive to counterbalance the negative and provide some good for the future:

- Outside of Desharnais, there isn't a single albatross contract on the Habs past 2015. Bourque is debatable, but most of the scapegoats for this year's troubles (Briere, Bouillon, Murray, Parros) are all slated to be gone by the end of next year at the latest. While Desharnais remains a lingering issue, keep in mind that the hawks were able to sign and then get rid of both Campbell and Huet who were on far worse deals.

- There are a solid crew of talented forwards: Pacioretty, Eller, Gallagher, Plekanec, Bournival all are, or look like, quality NHLers. Throw in Galchenyuk and you have 6 players that all look capable (or will be capable) of playing top 9 minutes for a contending team. Are the Habs short a few players (PUN not intended)? Yes of course. The cupboard was pretty bare a few years ago. But trades happen, prospects surprise, signings can happen...basically i think its reasonable to expect an improvement in this team's performance over the coming years based on internal growth alone.

- Our D, as it currently stands, will not be the D of the future. As i mentioned earlier, both Murray and Bouillon are off the books for next year, and if Emelin comes back strong, there are at least four defenseman capable of playing quality NHL minutes on the roster (i am likely higher on Gorges than most). Point being, not all of our prospects will pan out, but it would be foolish to assume that none of them will. As the Habs begin to lean less on stop-gaps (Which i actually think MB has planned for despite most people suggesting he's clueless) I think you will see our D corps come together and become above average. Look at LA's Defensemen when they won the cup...they didn't have much star power after Doughty but they played well as a unit in front of their all world goalie. I think we will have a defensive corps capable of doing the same thing in a few years' time.

To sum it up: I don't think that those of us who are optimistic about this team's future are being blind to reality and in fact think its quite the opposite. My optimism for the habs exists in spite of my severe skepticism for the franchise and the mediocrity its displayed over the past few decades. I think there is true elite talent in the system and that the Habs are finally at a point where their success will be determined by the complimentary moves they make, rather than blowing up the team and starting from scratch. There is alot left to be desired by this year's version of the Habs, but there is also alot to be excited about. At this point i no longer feel that the habs will need a miracle to be a contender, only a couple of good bounces.

And hey, if you can't hold out a (slightly) irrational hope that some breaks will go your team's way and that things will turn out for the better...what's the point of being a sports fan?
A few lucky bounces? ... you could say that as well for Toronto, Ottawa, Tampa Bay, and right up to half of the teams in the NHL. All the top half of the NHL teams have solid cores and if yours is not better than the others and capable of taking them on and beating them, then you don't win. All the teams as well as the HABs are also improving. It comes down to more than just improving a team, you have to improve more than the other teams are improving if you want to win and I just don't see that happening. I see the HABs improving somewhat, but only to keep pace and not enough with what they have now or in the near future to do much more than run on the treadmill.

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11-14-2013, 06:06 PM
  #90
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We are closer to our last cup, than the next one.

Think about that.

Think.


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11-14-2013, 06:20 PM
  #91
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Parros played less than 25 minutes this season and he is -5, so yes, he is a problem. I agree that Prust - White - Moen is a good 4th line, but I like having Prust on the 3rd line, so a guy like Halpern would be great.
I think the point he's making is that contenders top two lines and top pairing D are greater than ours.

Crosby-Neal-Malkin-whoever > than Galchenyuk-Eller-Plekanec

Or Kane-Toews-Hossa > us

I think Galchenyuk and Eller have the potenial but right now our franchise center is playing wing and Plek is preferred in many other situations.

We need to select the future core and let them dominate the team. Right now they lose ice time to mediocre vets.

As for the fourth line, that's BS. The Penguins, Blackhawks and Bruins roll their 4th lines every single season yet remain contenders. Why? Top two lines and top pairin D remain the same.

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11-14-2013, 06:26 PM
  #92
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A few lucky bounces? ... you could say that as well for Toronto, Ottawa, Tampa Bay, and right up to half of the teams in the NHL. All the top half of the NHL teams have solid cores and if yours is not better than the others and capable of taking them on and beating them, then you don't win. All the teams as well as the HABs are also improving. It comes down to more than just improving a team, you have to improve more than the other teams are improving if you want to win and I just don't see that happening. I see the HABs improving somewhat, but only to keep pace and not enough with what they have now or in the near future to do much more than run on the treadmill.
Yes you COULD say that about Toronto, Ottawa and Tampa Bay...which is why those three and Montreal are all considered young up and coming teams with promise. I'm not sure why you would compare us to those teams in an unfavorable manner as they are all franchises with great future potential.

Ottawa looks really promising with Karlsson, Lehner, Ryan, Cowen etc.
Tampa Bay has a nice looking future with Stamkos, Drouin, Hedman, Bishop
Toronto has some good young pieces in Kessel, Kadri, Rielly, Reimer/Bernier
Montreal has Galchenyuk, Subban, Price, Pacioretty, Eller

and all of those teams have some work to do with their lineup. Point being that parity has ensured that the top half of the NHL will be a VERY competitive landscape, and expecting the Habs to be head and shoulders above everyone else is pretty unrealistic.

as for "lucky bounces"...any team that has ever won a cup had a few of them. Not just game to game, but in the way things played out for their franchise. You make the best moves you can based on the information you have, but sometimes things happen that you didn't account for and you just hope it goes your way. For example:

- Jonathan Quick emerging as a top level goalie for LA despite being drafted in the third round and being an afterthought to Jonathan Bernier. The Kings had Kopitar, Brown, Doughty and Johnson as their cornerstones. They traded JOhnson for Carter who re-invented himself, Quick emerged as an elite goalie, they traded prospects and quality depth for Mike Richards, made a saavy signing in Justin Williams and then went on an absolute tear in the playoffs. A solid mix of shrewd moves and luck.

- The blackhawks drafted Kane, Toews, Keith and Seabrook and built around them. They made shrewd deals for Sharp and Leddy, got Hossa via UFA, got tremendous value from their prospects (Bickell, Saad, Sharp, Hjalmarsson, etc.) and are now a powerhouse.

- The bruins stanley cup core consisted of Bergeron, Krecji, Lucic, Chara, Marchand, Thomas and Seguin. That's a solid core and they are still a competitive team, but keep in mind that it took them a couple of years to gel before they became a legitimate force...and that's only after getting the most dominant defenseman in the league as a UFA.

My point is: lucky bounces are what any team needs to go from treadmill running middle of the pack franchise to elite, legit contender. If you think that bottoming out and gunning for top picks is how the Habs ensures that, then so be it.

Right now, i think the habs have most of the essentials down as far as key elements to a cup winner go. NO we don't have everything we need...but we have elite talent, both potential and actual, at just about every position that matters. That, to me, is the difference between this club and previous versions.

It remains to be seen if Bergevin can make the moves necessary to build a contender...but i think there is enough in the cupboard now that the chances are actually pretty good the Habs can become a legit team.

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11-14-2013, 06:32 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
I think the point he's making is that contenders top two lines and top pairing D are greater than ours.

Crosby-Neal-Malkin-whoever > than Galchenyuk-Eller-Plekanec

Or Kane-Toews-Hossa > us

I think Galchenyuk and Eller have the potenial but right now our franchise center is playing wing and Plek is preferred in many other situations.

We need to select the future core and let them dominate the team. Right now they lose ice time to mediocre vets.

As for the fourth line, that's BS. The Penguins, Blackhawks and Bruins roll their 4th lines every single season yet remain contenders. Why? Top two lines and top pairin D remain the same.
But that process takes time, and if we rush our top forwards into a situation where they are given too much responsibility too early, it could hurt their development moving forward. Look no further than Edmonton for an example of that.

In any event, it seems as though Therrien has begun relying alot more on the EGG line near the end of close games. Maybe that's the start of the process that so many fans seem to want?

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11-14-2013, 06:39 PM
  #94
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A few lucky bounces? ... you could say that as well for Toronto, Ottawa, Tampa Bay, and right up to half of the teams in the NHL. All the top half of the NHL teams have solid cores and if yours is not better than the others and capable of taking them on and beating them, then you don't win. All the teams as well as the HABs are also improving. It comes down to more than just improving a team, you have to improve more than the other teams are improving if you want to win and I just don't see that happening. I see the HABs improving somewhat, but only to keep pace and not enough with what they have now or in the near future to do much more than run on the treadmill.
yup, and here you are trying to predict how things will turn out...

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11-14-2013, 06:54 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Laviolette is available...
Not sure " isle sec " would get much mileage here.

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11-14-2013, 07:02 PM
  #96
overlords
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Not sure " isle sec " would get much mileage here.
I'm sure the laughs it would trigger when first proposed would at the very least brighten up the dressing room for a few moments!

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11-14-2013, 07:04 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
We are closer to our last cup, than the next one.

Think about that.

Think.

I say the glass is half full, my neighbor says it is half empty, and you say it is full of urine, cracked so badly it has lost structural integrity, infested with leeches who are infected with AIDS, and when smashed will release the antichrist.

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11-14-2013, 07:05 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I say the glass is half full, my neighbor says it is half empty, and you say it is full of urine, cracked so badly it has lost structural integrity, infested with leeches who are infected with AIDS, and when smashed will release the antichrist.
That's part of his charm.

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11-14-2013, 07:08 PM
  #99
Madam Kadri
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Laviolette is available...
Definitely will add Subban, Pacioretty, and Chucky to my fantasy pool and ride them to victory if he ever gets hired!!!!

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11-14-2013, 07:14 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Not sure " isle sec " would get much mileage here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I'm sure the laughs it would trigger when first proposed would at the very least brighten up the dressing room for a few moments!
Turned out great, didn't it?

Just for the wrong team



**** Disneyland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I say the glass is half full, my neighbor says it is half empty, and you say it is full of urine, cracked so badly it has lost structural integrity, infested with leeches who are infected with AIDS, and when smashed will release the antichrist.


Anyway you wanna slice it: we're getting closer every day, aren't we?

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