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Contract extension talks for Subban AND Diaz have started

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Old
11-14-2013, 05:21 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Just making the point that I'd rather sign Diaz to a good contract(around 3 for 2-3-4 years) than overpay and have an albatross from UFA. A good contract means a tradeable asset.
Wasn't the same said of DD's contract at the time it was signed? I'd rather convert for value before signing if the market is as optimistic about Diaz as most in this thread appear to be. Diaz is a pending UFA, he won't come cheap and he'll expect extra dollars for his "UFAness" as well as compensation for Quebec's tax bite, all of which should make him a less tradeable asset. Best trading value is now, without a contract.

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11-14-2013, 05:24 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Don't understand the hate for Diaz. He's not great but he's far from terrible.
He doesn't hit, isn't really big and isn't flashy. Since it looks like some people can't look past that, they can't see he's effective at other things.

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11-14-2013, 05:36 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Wasn't the same said of DD's contract at the time it was signed? I'd rather convert for value before signing if the market is as optimistic about Diaz as most in this thread appear to be. Diaz is a pending UFA, he won't come cheap and he'll expect extra dollars for his "UFAness" as well as compensation for Quebec's tax bite, all of which should make him a less tradeable asset. Best trading value is now, without a contract.
Nobody expected Desharnais to put up 1 point in 18 games. Most of the complaints about his deal were about his size and wanting Galchenyuk at center. If he was on a 50 point pace it would be a non issue and he would have positive value next summer.

Again, it depends on the cost. If Diaz is looking at Emelin money then I try and sign Markov before the trade deadline and I look at moving Diaz. At 3 mil I keep him until one of the kids shows he can play at a top 4(or 18-19 minutes) level. If you let Diaz go(trade) and don't keep Bouillon and Murray then you have rookies as #5-6 leaving you vulnerable if injuries hit.

If you keep Diaz at 3 mil(up from 1.225 mil), let Murray(1.5 mil) and Bouillon(1.5 mil) walk and replace them essentially with Drewiske(637k) and Tinordi(870k), you are spending only 275k more on those 3 spots, not even half of 1% of the cap.

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11-14-2013, 05:36 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Wasn't the same said of DD's contract at the time it was signed? I'd rather convert for value before signing if the market is as optimistic about Diaz as most in this thread appear to be. Diaz is a pending UFA, he won't come cheap and he'll expect extra dollars for his "UFAness" as well as compensation for Quebec's tax bite, all of which should make him a less tradeable asset. Best trading value is now, without a contract.
I think the issue here isn't simply a case of what do to: I think we disagree on what Diaz brings. I do not think he is useless and I do not believe he is a bad player at all. Desharnais is an extreme case in terms of someone who has seemingly lost all ability to play at the NHL level, but even if one were to predict such a case, I do think Diaz has a few strengths in his game that will allow him to have a niche longer term, such as his skating and work on the PP. (Also, I do think Desharnais was given too many years on his contract, that was my biggest issue)

There are always teams, even good ones, that could use a Diaz to solidify their defensive unit (ideally as someone who gets to play on the PP while giving #5 minutes 5-on-5), and having him on a short term contract that does not break the bank makes him an available asset instead of dead weight.

For now, I would say he has more value to us as a player than as a tradeable asset, but at least signing him to some kind of contract means a team that wants a decent skating defenseman who is not a hindrance can rest assured that he can be more than just a quick dump off.

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11-14-2013, 05:47 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
Assumption does not equal research. I prefer to deal with the facts as they are now, not what may or may not occur under hopeful/ideal circumstances.

The fact is that the best player in the game does not make 9 million a year. So I think it would be ridiculous for any other player to expect that much, until/unless the cap actually does go up substantially.
You don't get it...looking at the facts from today then, PK should be making over 10m if he thinks he's worth Crosby in that case. And assuming the cap won't go up by at least 2.7m is just dumb, it's going to go up that's no hidden fact

The fact you are comparing Crosby's contract from 2008 to a 9m contract in 2013 just makes no sense at all, I don't know how I can make this more clear for you its basic math.

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11-14-2013, 05:52 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
If you let Diaz go(trade) and don't keep Bouillon and Murray then you have rookies as #5-6 leaving you vulnerable if injuries hit.
I'm assuming a Diaz move would be part of a larger strategy where he'd be replaced by another defenseman more suitable to our needs. Could be obtained in a separate trade. I agree about your fall-back scenario, esp. that we don't know for sure when Tinordi will be ready to play in a regular capacity.

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11-14-2013, 06:00 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by BLASPHEMOUS View Post
I think the issue here isn't simply a case of what do to: I think we disagree on what Diaz brings. (...)

There are always teams, even good ones, that could use a Diaz to solidify their defensive unit (ideally as someone who gets to play on the PP while giving #5 minutes 5-on-5), and having him on a short term contract that does not break the bank makes him an available asset instead of dead weight.

For now, I would say he has more value to us as a player than as a tradeable asset, but at least signing him to some kind of contract means a team that wants a decent skating defenseman who is not a hindrance can rest assured that he can be more than just a quick dump off.
Those who are proponents of trading Diaz are not saying he's worthless, it's just that what he brings, we don't absolutely need. Players like Diaz are non-factors in the playoffs, they are easily circumvented. We need a different player mix on our defense, esp. if we commit to Markov and hold on to Gorges.

Ultimately, it's what he brings to us and whether we can afford to use one of our third pairing spots on him, when, by most accounts, we have many other pressing issues on D.

As far as his contract goes, I'd like to see what his demands are -- as much as DD's contract length was repugnant, an impending UFA never tends to settle for a low number of years -- we may yet see another diminutive player with non-elite skills, asking for a deal similar to the one the similarly non-elite DD got.

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11-14-2013, 06:44 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Those who are proponents of trading Diaz are not saying he's worthless, it's just that what he brings, we don't absolutely need. Players like Diaz are non-factors in the playoffs, they are easily circumvented. We need a different player mix on our defense, esp. if we commit to Markov and hold on to Gorges.

Ultimately, it's what he brings to us and whether we can afford to use one of our third pairing spots on him, when, by most accounts, we have many other pressing issues on D.

As far as his contract goes, I'd like to see what his demands are -- as much as DD's contract length was repugnant, an impending UFA never tends to settle for a low number of years -- we may yet see another diminutive player with non-elite skills, asking for a deal similar to the one the similarly non-elite DD got.
How can you claim that Diaz is a non-factor in the playoffs when his entire track-record is five games after coming back from injury? You can't judge anyone on five rusty games. He's also not diminutive, though I'll admit he has been playing like it.

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11-14-2013, 06:49 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
I'm assuming a Diaz move would be part of a larger strategy where he'd be replaced by another defenseman more suitable to our needs. Could be obtained in a separate trade. I agree about your fall-back scenario, esp. that we don't know for sure when Tinordi will be ready to play in a regular capacity.
He eventually will, but at this point I don't want the expectation on Tinordi, Beaulieu or Nygren to be #5 next year...maybe if one of those guys gets 25-30 NHL games this year at some point and looks very good.

Best case is to get a nice pick or prospect for him while replacing him with a younger player at some point in the next 2 years.

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11-14-2013, 07:28 PM
  #285
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Is diaz really a priority at this point? I would be exhausting my resources trying to find a way to get markov and subban both signed first and formost. I'll gladly take the tradeoff of losing diaz if it meant that we can retain the general along with sooby doo

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11-14-2013, 07:34 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
Is diaz really a priority at this point? I would be exhausting my resources trying to find a way to get markov and subban both signed first and formost. I'll gladly take the tradeoff of losing diaz if it meant that we can retain the general along with sooby doo
Probably best to get as many signed asap before they announce how much the cap is going up, I would imagine.

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11-14-2013, 07:37 PM
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i would be ok with signing diaz if it was for cheap(ideally around 3.5M), we could use him on the 2nd PP wave w/ emelin and we could put together a solid package with beaulieu for a top 6 winger

markymark - subban
emelin - gorges
tinordi - diaz

solid RHD's arent easy to come by and theres still the possibility that markov wont resign with us.. in that case we would have to resign diaz and pray that beaulieu pans out as a solid PMD


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11-14-2013, 07:37 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Nobody expected Desharnais to put up 1 point in 18 games. Most of the complaints about his deal were about his size and wanting Galchenyuk at center. If he was on a 50 point pace it would be a non issue and he would have positive value next summer.

Again, it depends on the cost. If Diaz is looking at Emelin money then I try and sign Markov before the trade deadline and I look at moving Diaz. At 3 mil I keep him until one of the kids shows he can play at a top 4(or 18-19 minutes) level. If you let Diaz go(trade) and don't keep Bouillon and Murray then you have rookies as #5-6 leaving you vulnerable if injuries hit.

If you keep Diaz at 3 mil(up from 1.225 mil), let Murray(1.5 mil) and Bouillon(1.5 mil) walk and replace them essentially with Drewiske(637k) and Tinordi(870k), you are spending only 275k more on those 3 spots, not even half of 1% of the cap.
the point is simple here

Diaz and DD are bad fits . DD was never a top 6 forward , so his contract and his fit are bad , regardless if he was in his 50 point pace .

I have a cheaper solution than Diaz in Hamilton named Nathan B, who was drafted in the first round .

both don't play D very well but one is bigger and better potential

3 mil or 2.5 is not the issue , he doesn't fit here , bye bye

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11-14-2013, 07:41 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
Is diaz really a priority at this point? I would be exhausting my resources trying to find a way to get markov and subban both signed first and formost. I'll gladly take the tradeoff of losing diaz if it meant that we can retain the general along with sooby doo
he is a dime a dozen every team has a diaz , better trading nothing for liles than overpay this stiff , maybe the leafs pick up a mil as well

not that I want Liles but you could find these finesse guys on most teams

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11-14-2013, 07:42 PM
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Those who are proponents of trading Diaz are not saying he's worthless, it's just that what he brings, we don't absolutely need. Players like Diaz are non-factors in the playoffs, they are easily circumvented. We need a different player mix on our defense, esp. if we commit to Markov and hold on to Gorges.

Ultimately, it's what he brings to us and whether we can afford to use one of our third pairing spots on him, when, by most accounts, we have many other pressing issues on D.

As far as his contract goes, I'd like to see what his demands are -- as much as DD's contract length was repugnant, an impending UFA never tends to settle for a low number of years -- we may yet see another diminutive player with non-elite skills, asking for a deal similar to the one the similarly non-elite DD got.
excellent post

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11-14-2013, 07:44 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
Is diaz really a priority at this point? I would be exhausting my resources trying to find a way to get markov and subban both signed first and formost. I'll gladly take the tradeoff of losing diaz if it meant that we can retain the general along with sooby doo
pk is a must , the rest aren't

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11-14-2013, 07:44 PM
  #292
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he is a dime a dozen every team has a diaz , better trading nothing for liles than overpay this stiff , maybe the leafs pick up a mil as well

not that I want Liles but you could find these finesse guys on most teams
I suggest you look up and learn what "dime a dozen" means.

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11-14-2013, 07:45 PM
  #293
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pk is a must , the rest aren't
we have TWO NHL Dman signed for next season...

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11-14-2013, 07:52 PM
  #294
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How can you claim that Diaz is a non-factor in the playoffs when his entire track-record is five games after coming back from injury? You can't judge anyone on five rusty games. He's also not diminutive, though I'll admit he has been playing like it.
My comment doesn't refer to Diaz personally, but on the basis of a class of other players who exhibit a similar playing style and tools. Seems rather logical that he's not suited to the rigors of a physical game, something he doesn't quite have to worry about in the first half of a regular season, where opponents allow a lot more time and space than they do in the latter stages of the season. Nor is he particularly elite in any aspect of his game -- his 20 mins. TOI average so far reflects a matter of necessity, not deservedness.

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11-14-2013, 07:55 PM
  #295
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I suggest you look up and learn what "dime a dozen" means.
easily replaceable

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11-14-2013, 07:56 PM
  #296
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Am I the only one thinking that if this guy is in our TOP 4 moving forward that we are in trouble , he shouldn't get anything more then a OFD on the bottom pairing and 2nd wave , which he does well.

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11-14-2013, 07:57 PM
  #297
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easily replaceable
Just as an exercise, who would you have replaced diaz with on last year's ufa market?

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11-14-2013, 08:01 PM
  #298
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Just as an exercise, who would you have replaced diaz with on last year's ufa market?
ian white 111!!!!

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11-14-2013, 08:02 PM
  #299
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we have TWO NHL Dman signed for next season...
agreed and it shouldn't be this way

Pk will get his money , Emelin done , Gorges signed

Tinordi and or Pateryn should of been phased in so they get some experience and can play as 5-6th guys thereby Cube, Murray etc... can leave

then we aren't scrambling in free agency to fill the gaps

I don't want Markov back at crazy money 1-2 years max , but I would trade him and get value back cause we aren't winning anything anytime soon

Diaz for me is a non factor long term , can be replaced if need be

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11-14-2013, 08:08 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Those who are proponents of trading Diaz are not saying he's worthless, it's just that what he brings, we don't absolutely need. Players like Diaz are non-factors in the playoffs, they are easily circumvented. We need a different player mix on our defense, esp. if we commit to Markov and hold on to Gorges.

Ultimately, it's what he brings to us and whether we can afford to use one of our third pairing spots on him, when, by most accounts, we have many other pressing issues on D.

As far as his contract goes, I'd like to see what his demands are -- as much as DD's contract length was repugnant, an impending UFA never tends to settle for a low number of years -- we may yet see another diminutive player with non-elite skills, asking for a deal similar to the one the similarly non-elite DD got.
Oh, we do have pressing issues on D, but getting rid of Diaz does not magically solve the issue.

If it's a 5 year deal, then that is obviously a different story and I do not want that kind of term with Diaz. There is a sweet medium that has to be reached.

I also find your continual connecting to Desharnais rather unsettling. Diaz is not Desharnais, Diaz can skate, Diaz is of use on the powerplay, he has a role he can succeed in without being a detriment. And if you continue to do so, I WILL go into full Stephen A. Smith mode.

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