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Game #19 SJ SHARKS @ Vancouver Canucks 11/14/13 7:00pm PDT CSN/KFox

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Old
11-15-2013, 01:35 AM
  #576
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Didn't know what to really think of this game. But I'll take the 2 points any way possible with Burns still out.

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11-15-2013, 01:39 AM
  #577
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Thought havlat and nieto with desi was weird most of the night.

The feeling on the bench Sheppard is talking about is when the Canucks are up your ass every time you touch the puck and hemming you in all night. You start feeling a bit hopeless that you can break through. Gripping the stick too tight etc etc.

They out worked us for sure. As PF said though, they generally limited their zone time to a clear shot for niemi to take care of.

I'm glad Tmac finally went overload on the top line with pavs. When you need just 1 goal later on that's a move a team like this should make.

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11-15-2013, 02:26 AM
  #578
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Thornton showed how the talented can just squeeze on by. He played a pretty bad game, but still came out with two points.

Maybe it is because I could actually kind of watch this game, but I can see where those frustrated with Havlat and Marleau the past two games are coming from.

The fourth-line looked really good. Really, really good. Others have to step it up now.

It looked to me like Pavelski was being matched up against Richardson. How the hell did he get dominated in that matchup? Richardson is a fringe NHLer in my frank opinion.

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11-15-2013, 02:47 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Thornton showed how the talented can just squeeze on by. He played a pretty bad game, but still came out with two points.

Maybe it is because I could actually kind of watch this game, but I can see where those frustrated with Havlat and Marleau the past two games are coming from.

The fourth-line looked really good. Really, really good. Others have to step it up now.

It looked to me like Pavelski was being matched up against Richardson. How the hell did he get dominated in that matchup? Richardson is a fringe NHLer in my frank opinion.
TMac stuck Pavelski with Sheppard and McCarthy for a loooooong time during the second and third. I have no idea why he would punish Pavs like that but all it did was give us two totally useless lines instead of one.

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11-15-2013, 03:00 AM
  #580
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TMac stuck Pavelski with Sheppard and McCarthy for a loooooong time during the second and third. I have no idea why he would punish Pavs like that but all it did was give us two totally useless lines instead of one.
Because shep and McCarthy were the better linemates at the time as bad as that sounds. Havlat nieto got demoted. Not the other way around he was trying to improve that 3rd line

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11-15-2013, 03:27 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Thornton showed how the talented can just squeeze on by. He played a pretty bad game, but still came out with two points.

Maybe it is because I could actually kind of watch this game, but I can see where those frustrated with Havlat and Marleau the past two games are coming from.

The fourth-line looked really good. Really, really good. Others have to step it up now.

It looked to me like Pavelski was being matched up against Richardson. How the hell did he get dominated in that matchup? Richardson is a fringe NHLer in my frank opinion.
Marleau/Couture was the only line truly getting shots from the forwards. Give it a rest.

They had the wrong exit strategy versus Vancouver. It worked against Calgary, not Vancouver. They should have skated one guy to the middle near the blueline every chance they got to get it out. Vancouver was overcommitting low and interrupting a lot of first passes. It made all lines look relatively bad.

Agree with others about Shep/McCarthy outplaying Havlat/Nieto. They were doing better impressions of F1's where Pavs has been hurt not having Wingels.

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11-15-2013, 07:52 AM
  #582
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Marleau/Couture was the only line truly getting shots from the forwards. Give it a rest.

They had the wrong exit strategy versus Vancouver. It worked against Calgary, not Vancouver. They should have skated one guy to the middle near the blueline every chance they got to get it out. Vancouver was overcommitting low and interrupting a lot of first passes. It made all lines look relatively bad.

Agree with others about Shep/McCarthy outplaying Havlat/Nieto. They were doing better impressions of F1's where Pavs has been hurt not having Wingels.
Shep has been skating. Showing that he has some above average speed. I hope he keeps it up.

Are you feeling any different on vlasic/Boyle? Despite the sharks having poor fenwick etc that pair rose above and played really well. I also saw vlasic taking some entries and shots vice deferring. But if you saw different id be curious to hear your thoughts.

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11-15-2013, 10:38 AM
  #583
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Can I get an honorary SNOG for my call? That deserves recognition! COME ON, DRUNK!
No. You like Patrick Marleau

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11-15-2013, 11:30 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
Shep has been skating. Showing that he has some above average speed. I hope he keeps it up.

Are you feeling any different on vlasic/Boyle? Despite the sharks having poor fenwick etc that pair rose above and played really well. I also saw vlasic taking some entries and shots vice deferring. But if you saw different id be curious to hear your thoughts.
I agree about Shep being better. His impression of an F1 is lightyears beyond last year. Not great, but a lot better.

Various issues with Boyle/Vlasic. Boyle is still doing too many own zone spins. He is deferring to Vlasic in both ends at times which is good. But, Vlasic is not pinching. He doesn't have the shot to only do it from the blueline. Vlasic's offense comes from pinches. Vlasic is sacrificing to protect Boyle. This means they still have only one truly offensive dman 5on5. Separately, they might have two. With Vlasic/Braun, they had one pair to get it out super fast, one middling (Hannan/Demers) and one slow (Stuart/Irwin). Now they have three middling pairs. It shows on the shotclock for the team as a whole. This issue is also exacerbated by the exit style not being adapted to the opponent by the coaches. The team needs to adapt on the fly.

I did like Boyle's PP play in the OT 4on3, not just on the goal. He wasn't hanging on too long. A lot better movement and it was interesting to see JT absent from the foursome.

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11-15-2013, 11:50 AM
  #585
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I agree about Shep being better. His impression of an F1 is lightyears beyond last year. Not great, but a lot better.

Various issues with Boyle/Vlasic. Boyle is still doing too many own zone spins. He is deferring to Vlasic in both ends at times which is good. But, Vlasic is not pinching. He doesn't have the shot to only do it from the blueline. Vlasic's offense comes from pinches. Vlasic is sacrificing to protect Boyle. This means they still have only one truly offensive dman 5on5. Separately, they might have two. With Vlasic/Braun, they had one pair to get it out super fast, one middling (Hannan/Demers) and one slow (Stuart/Irwin). Now they have three middling pairs. It shows on the shotclock for the team as a whole. This issue is also exacerbated by the exit style not being adapted to the opponent by the coaches. The team needs to adapt on the fly.

I did like Boyle's PP play in the OT 4on3, not just on the goal. He wasn't hanging on too long. A lot better movement and it was interesting to see JT absent from the foursome.
Vlasic had 6 sog against a shot blocking team. I'm not sure I agree that his offense was dampened there. Boyle also was able to get much closer to vancouvers net due to vlasics presence. In the end, vlasic is a shutdown d that has shown flashes of offensive jump.

I'd also argue that Braun has made Stuart look serviceable. So the pairings seem balanced. Though I think our exit strategy was pretty bad all around. Not sure if that's due to pairings more than puck placement.

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11-15-2013, 12:07 PM
  #586
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I agree about Shep being better. His impression of an F1 is lightyears beyond last year. Not great, but a lot better.

Various issues with Boyle/Vlasic. Boyle is still doing too many own zone spins. He is deferring to Vlasic in both ends at times which is good. But, Vlasic is not pinching. He doesn't have the shot to only do it from the blueline. Vlasic's offense comes from pinches. Vlasic is sacrificing to protect Boyle. This means they still have only one truly offensive dman 5on5. Separately, they might have two. With Vlasic/Braun, they had one pair to get it out super fast, one middling (Hannan/Demers) and one slow (Stuart/Irwin). Now they have three middling pairs. It shows on the shotclock for the team as a whole. This issue is also exacerbated by the exit style not being adapted to the opponent by the coaches. The team needs to adapt on the fly.

I did like Boyle's PP play in the OT 4on3, not just on the goal. He wasn't hanging on too long. A lot better movement and it was interesting to see JT absent from the foursome.
Agree was interesting not to see Thorton out there. But it's just obvious they wanted someone to shoot the puck as they went with the three best shooters. I liked it efficient quick. Being 4 on 3 I think that was the way to go ad it's more about quick puck movement accurate shots on goal then the 5 on 4 where you need to be a little more creative

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11-15-2013, 12:13 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
Vlasic had 6 sog against a shot blocking team. I'm not sure I agree that his offense was dampened there. Boyle also was able to get much closer to vancouvers net due to vlasics presence. In the end, vlasic is a shutdown d that has shown flashes of offensive jump.

I'd also argue that Braun has made Stuart look serviceable. So the pairings seem balanced. Though I think our exit strategy was pretty bad all around. Not sure if that's due to pairings more than puck placement.
Vlasic gets his points from pinching and he is pretty good at it. Paired with Boyle, he doesn't pinch. All of his shots were from the point. Lots of shots, not much scoring that way. His shots weren't really creating rebounds either.

Just FYI, they have 3 exit strategies demoed so far this year. Zig-zag up the boards, a slight variation on last year's straight up the boards and an improvement. Close support low (what they were doing in the latest games against Vanc and Calgary) which is winger and center just above the dman. near the circles. Finally, high middle exits. Weak side winger comes off the boards to the middle to take a mini-stretch or very long rebound.

They have to vary their strategies according to what the opponent gives them. And, it is pretty much book on the Sharks that a heavy forecheck messes them up. The number of forwards and efficacy of opponent forechecks will drop dramatically when the Sharks start stretching the ice. It is the same forecheck strategy that opponents used successfully against Detroit in the middle 00's. Babcock finally decided to counter with stretch against those opponents who dared to do it. Refining it now, the Sharks have to figure where the opponents are committing their 3rd forward and select the appropriate counter away from the 3rd guy.

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11-15-2013, 12:19 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Various issues with Boyle/Vlasic. Boyle is still doing too many own zone spins. He is deferring to Vlasic in both ends at times which is good. But, Vlasic is not pinching. He doesn't have the shot to only do it from the blueline. Vlasic's offense comes from pinches. Vlasic is sacrificing to protect Boyle. This means they still have only one truly offensive dman 5on5. Separately, they might have two. With Vlasic/Braun, they had one pair to get it out super fast, one middling (Hannan/Demers) and one slow (Stuart/Irwin). Now they have three middling pairs. It shows on the shotclock for the team as a whole. This issue is also exacerbated by the exit style not being adapted to the opponent by the coaches. The team needs to adapt on the fly.
I specifically noticed Vlasic not pinching in scenarios where he would with Braun. He would be glued to the point even when no one was guarding him. I dislike it.

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I'd also argue that Braun has made Stuart look serviceable. So the pairings seem balanced. Though I think our exit strategy was pretty bad all around. Not sure if that's due to pairings more than puck placement.
Stuart looked eons better skating with Braun, but we shouldn't have to have our second best defensive D babysit for Stuart.

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11-15-2013, 12:32 PM
  #589
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You guys have such a talented team!

Arrgh i'm tired of playing you guys -.-

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11-15-2013, 12:34 PM
  #590
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I specifically noticed Vlasic not pinching in scenarios where he would with Braun. He would be glued to the point even when no one was guarding him. I dislike it.



Stuart looked eons better skating with Braun, but we shouldn't have to have our second best defensive D babysit for Stuart.
I want to see how this plays out over 10 games or so. Maybe vlasic starts pinching, maybe his shot starts causing rebounds.

As for Easy, vlasic had a career start points wise, but let's not imagine vlasic is a 30 pt ES d man just yet. Allowing your most dangerous offensive d man and having a second pairing that can stay above water is more important than vlasics overall point total.

Now, if the team affect of not having vlasic Braun together is negative. Let's go back.

I'm not ready to say that yet.

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11-15-2013, 12:55 PM
  #591
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I want to see how this plays out over 10 games or so. Maybe vlasic starts pinching, maybe his shot starts causing rebounds.

As for Easy, vlasic had a career start points wise, but let's not imagine vlasic is a 30 pt ES d man just yet. Allowing your most dangerous offensive d man and having a second pairing that can stay above water is more important than vlasics overall point total.

Now, if the team affect of not having vlasic Braun together is negative. Let's go back.

I'm not ready to say that yet.
The effect will likely be shotclock/scoring although that is also affected by the team using inappropriate exit strategies. It may also have a consequence of not being able defense overwhelming type top lines (eg Getzlaf/Perry).

I don't think of Vlasic as a quality offensive dman, but I do think that not taking advantage of what he does have is a mistake. If being with Vlasic gives Boyle 5 more ES points and loses 10 for Vlasic that is just wrong. And the points should be measured at ES not PP. Boyle has not been good 5on5. The team is not here for Boyle; Boyle is here for the team. The team needs all the help it can get to be an offensive juggernaut. That is not accomplished by one player or just one line. They have tried defensive mode to get through the playoffs and it just doesn't work for them.

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11-15-2013, 01:04 PM
  #592
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The effect will likely be shotclock/scoring although that is also affected by the team using inappropriate exit strategies. It may also have a consequence of not being able defense overwhelming type top lines (eg Getzlaf/Perry).

I don't think of Vlasic as a quality offensive dman, but I do think that not taking advantage of what he does have is a mistake. The team is not here for Boyle; Boyle is here for the team. The team needs all the help it can get to be an offensive juggernaut. That is not accomplished by one player or just one line. They have tried defensive mode to get through the playoffs and it just doesn't work for them.
Poor phrasing. Essentially I'm asking why handcuff Boyle who is a much bigger threat than vlasic? Boyle isn't so slow that vlasic can't pinch though, and I expect as they gel we will see that come out.

I don't want to funnel offense through Boyle, but getting him closer to the net as a late man on the cycle has a higher chance for goals than vlasic pinching IMO. I think he will still get his chances though.

Just went conservative this last game. If that's because coaches want Boyle running the offense from the blue line, that's a bad idea. If it's because he's still figuring Boyle out a bit. Let's see what we have.

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11-15-2013, 01:09 PM
  #593
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Poor phrasing. Essentially I'm asking why handcuff Boyle who is a much bigger threat than vlasic? Boyle isn't so slow that vlasic can't pinch though, and I expect as they gel we will see that come out.

I don't want to funnel offense through Boyle, but getting him closer to the net as a late man on the cycle has a higher chance for goals than vlasic pinching IMO. I think he will still get his chances though.

Just went conservative this last game. If that's because coaches want Boyle running the offense from the blue line, that's a bad idea. If it's because he's still figuring Boyle out a bit. Let's see what we have.
Boyle admitted last night that he's still having trouble getting up to speed after the hit. Vlasic being extra cautious is the correct thing to do at this point IMO. And Vlasic is never going to bring the puck out of the D zone and start an attack was well as Boyle.

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11-15-2013, 01:26 PM
  #594
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Boyle admitted last night that he's still having trouble getting up to speed after the hit. Vlasic being extra cautious is the correct thing to do at this point IMO. And Vlasic is never going to bring the puck out of the D zone and start an attack was well as Boyle.
The thing is that Boyle isn't bringing it out like he did 2 years ago. 5 clean entries all of last year. He isn't Campbell, Karlsson or Letang who were way into double digits. The Sharks are committed to passing it out now which generates faster exits. Skating it out for a Sharks dman is what now amounts to a poor backup plan. The fancy spin moves in his own zone have to stop when it isn't a line change.

I don't mind conservatism to get Boyle on track, but he needs to not hold back his d partner in the long run. And he needs to not put the team in a position of not being able to counter other teams' top lines. I am willing to wait to see the upshot, but if they go back to having only one or zero dmen generating 5on5 points (I don't care which ones), it is a failure. They need to get 3 dmen into the 20 point range at ES. And every one of the regulars needs at least 10.

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11-15-2013, 01:39 PM
  #595
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The thing is that Boyle isn't bringing it out like he did 2 years ago. 5 clean entries all of last year. He isn't Campbell, Karlsson or Letang who were way into double digits. The Sharks are committed to passing it out now which generates faster exits. Skating it out for a Sharks dman is what now amounts to a poor backup plan. The fancy spin moves in his own zone have to stop when it isn't a line change.

I don't mind conservatism to get Boyle on track, but he needs to not hold back his d partner in the long run. And he needs to not put the team in a position of not being able to counter other teams' top lines. I am willing to wait to see the upshot, but if they go back to having only one or zero dmen generating 5on5 points (I don't care which ones), it is a failure. They need to get 3 dmen into the 20 point range at ES. And every one of the regulars needs at least 10.
I have a hard time taking your views on Boyle seriously when you constantly post as if he was never injured last year and that it was a shortened season. I see what I see and you see what you see and our views differ widely.

To add to that, the difference of the PP with and without Boyle was HUGE. You can say that others need more time to prove themselves and get better, and I'll acknowledge there was a bit of improvement while Boyle was out, but nothing I saw said they'd come close at this time. And yes, the PP is important even if you get fewer of them and fewer goals off of them in the PO's.

And how is it Boyle's fault if all pairs underperformed in the points department?

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11-15-2013, 01:45 PM
  #596
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There was 10 minutes left so I was wondering why the hell Pavs would take himself off the ice for half the game for someone like Richardson. Thankfully it was only roughing.
To give his team a boost. And it worked. Everyone on the team had more pep in their step from that point on. Total shot in the arm.

Plus, enough was enough. The canucks one goal came off of a dive from Richardson on Pavelski. He also slashed and hacked Pavelski all night. I'm glad Pavelski stood up for himself.

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11-15-2013, 01:56 PM
  #597
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Don't ever question why Pavelski does something. If he feels the need to explain, he will let you know.

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11-15-2013, 02:26 PM
  #598
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All I know is Vlasic fired 16 shots last night. Thats a good sign it means hes feeling confident in his offensive game.

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11-15-2013, 02:27 PM
  #599
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To add to that, the difference of the PP with and without Boyle was HUGE. You can say that others need more time to prove themselves and get better, and I'll acknowledge there was a bit of improvement while Boyle was out, but nothing I saw said they'd come close at this time. And yes, the PP is important even if you get fewer of them and fewer goals off of them in the PO's.

And how is it Boyle's fault if all pairs underperformed in the points department?
Agreed, Boyle is tied 2nd in goals for dmen, despite missing 7 games and is top 10 in ppg....Hfsharks "Boyle is regressing!"

We are lucky to have him. I said last week they should try a Vlasic Boyle pairing and ride them, I think untill we have another good LHD to play with Boyle what other options are there? right now there isn't a pairing that is a 'liability'

Is there logged stats out there about clean zone entry's , seems like a random stat.

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11-15-2013, 02:29 PM
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To give his team a boost. And it worked. Everyone on the team had more pep in their step from that point on. Total shot in the arm.

Plus, enough was enough. The canucks one goal came off of a dive from Richardson on Pavelski. He also slashed and hacked Pavelski all night. I'm glad Pavelski stood up for himself.
Pavelski got enough of a whack in before the matching minors that i thought he might get 2 minors for himself. Pavelski isn't defenseless.
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I have a hard time taking your views on Boyle seriously when you constantly post as if he was never injured last year and that it was a shortened season. I see what I see and you see what you see and our views differ widely.

To add to that, the difference of the PP with and without Boyle was HUGE. You can say that others need more time to prove themselves and get better, and I'll acknowledge there was a bit of improvement while Boyle was out, but nothing I saw said they'd come close at this time. And yes, the PP is important even if you get fewer of them and fewer goals off of them in the PO's.

And how is it Boyle's fault if all pairs underperformed in the points department?
I have a hard time with your views because they are consistently prejudiced to the general view which is generally out of date. The upshot of your view is that he could be in walker or wheelchair and you would still want him. He wasn't injured all of last year and when he wasn't he had the same issues that I was spotting. He has gotten more conservative. I have never been a super fan of Boyle but I acknowledge that at one time he was one of the best offensive guys out there, including the skating, passing, entries, etc. He isn't any longer.

I acknowledge the necessity of the PP to get to the playoffs. I don't want them sitting around 15-17% because it will put too much pressure on other parts of the team's game. But if they can maintain 20% and gain in 5on5 play, I wouldn't have a problem either. I don't know that they can hit 20% without Boyle, but I think it would be close. I don't think they could hit 20% if they lost both Boyle and JT. I also think they could close on 20% without JT but with Boyle.

The team issue is when his presence becomes a model for others or they wait around until he does it. Just like waiting for JT to do it. All of them have to do it. Right now, that is press initiation of the attack. You don't do that by hanging onto the puck until everyone is ready. That method has failed for many teams.

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