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Where has the offense gone?

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Old
11-17-2013, 11:43 AM
  #26
CanadienShark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toastman View Post
Quite simple, our main goal scorers aren't scoring (Patches, Gionta)

We can't rely on the EGG line all season
Pretty much this. Our old scorers aren't doing much. We're a one trick pony - well, a one trick EGG.

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11-17-2013, 11:49 AM
  #27
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We need Yakupov.

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11-17-2013, 11:51 AM
  #28
CanadienShark
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I think there's a few reasons for this.

The vets aren't chipping in their share. The 4 youngsters Eller, Gally, Bournival and Galchmeyuk have nearly half the Habs goals.

Therriens insistence on playing DD with Patches even though it's not working. When Briere was with Patches for half a game, they scored a big goal and helped get a point in what was a sorry effort. Same for Bou who is given too many minutes by MT than what he can handle. What's with Plex and Gio having to play together. They haven't worked well for a long time but MT keeps them together ALL the time. Why? Break them up and change up the lines as they clearly aren't working now.

Bergevin can't pull a trade off for some offence the we desperately need. We have a ton of assets at our disposal to pull off a trade. He seems like he's afraid to make another Gomez trade and he's afraid to take a chance. Given the number of teams who are out there and publicly stating they're aggressively pursuing trades, why haven't we made one yet to address some of our weakness'?

Overall, the team is playing great defense and the core guys you want to build around are doing a fantastic job for the most part. The problem seems to be more the lack of a supporting cast and vets stepping up. They should be the pieces that are the easiest to interchange and trade. At the ver least change the line pairings.

Patches Chuckie Galagher
Prust Eller Gio
Briere Plex Bourque
Moen White Bournival
Parros
DD

Markov Emelin
Gorges PK
Murray Diaz
I'm sorry, but I think all this line changing has hurt the team more than helped it. Also, we should keep the EGG line together - this will draw top defensive pairings away, leaving Patches able to take advantage, at least in theory.

I have:

EGG line
Patches - Briere - Bourque
Bournival - Pleks - Gionta/Prust

I really, really like Bournival and Plekanec together. I think surrounding Briere (AS CENTRE) with our two big wingers, that he could thrive.

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11-17-2013, 11:53 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
I'm sorry, but I think all this line changing has hurt the team more than helped it. Also, we should keep the EGG line together - this will draw top defensive pairings away, leaving Patches able to take advantage, at least in theory.

I have:

EGG line
Patches - Briere - Bourque
Bournival - Pleks - Gionta/Prust

I really, really like Bournival and Plekanec together. I think surrounding Briere (AS CENTRE) with our two big wingers, that he could thrive.
**** this man, time to put Gionta in the press box. He has cooled of and Plekanec can't carry him any more.

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11-17-2013, 11:54 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
I'm sorry, but I think all this line changing has hurt the team more than helped it. Also, we should keep the EGG line together - this will draw top defensive pairings away, leaving Patches able to take advantage, at least in theory.

I have:

EGG line
Patches - Briere - Bourque
Bournival - Pleks - Gionta/Prust

I really, really like Bournival and Plekanec together. I think surrounding Briere (AS CENTRE) with our two big wingers, that he could thrive.
We all really like Bournival and Plek together. They formed an effective line that was responsible defensively, and creative / talented enough to score some nice goals.

I also agree that Patches-Briere-Bourque would be a decent line that can score. If only Therrien would see this...

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Old
11-17-2013, 11:55 AM
  #31
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Guys guys guys...

I don't understand what is so hard to grasp here.

It's been the EXACT SAME PROBLEM for years!

How many times do you need to be baffled and confused as to why we CONSISTENTLY get shut out by average or backup/no-name goaltenders?

How many times do you need to see this team "dominate" and yet still get shut out despite outshooting the opponent?

THIS TEAM CAN'T FINISH. IT LACKS GOALSCORERS AND ALWAYS HAS.

Guys like Patch or Gionta will put up goals, but they also put up a ton of shots on goal and eventually they go in. The problem is, you can't COUNT on these guys to score. They lack the talent to be gamebreakers.

It's been the same issue for YEARS now.

I couldn't stand Kovalev but you know what? The guy could finish.

Putting up 40 shots on net doesn't meant squat. It doesn't mean we are "dominating" other teams and they just happen to magically have a hot goaltender when they face us... 40 shots on net shooting from the point is useless.

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Old
11-17-2013, 11:57 AM
  #32
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EGG are assigned opponent's top defensive guys, so it's understandable that they settle at a lower scoring pace.

For the rest of the top 9 forwards, it's simple: they play passive, perimeter games. Nobody's driving the net.

Plekanec: plays his usual smart perimeter game, but got nobody on his line to create space and/or complete his plays
Gionta: the most overpaid 5'7" glorified checking winger in the NHL today. Because that's all he is now. A defensive forward. He has 0 offense left. His biceps injuries killed his shot, he's still a horrible passer and he gets rid of the puck 90% of the time.
Pacioretty: either his hamstring injury is not fully healed, or he has become a skittish perimeter player. Notice how he stops skating and lets himself glide everytime he's 1-on-1 now. Also avoids going in traffic now.
Bourque: works hard one shift, than invisible the next. Misses tons of chances and whenever he shoots it's deflected by a stick. Doesn't crash the net as often as he should.
Desharnais: STOP TRYING TO GRIND IT OUT WHEN YOU ARE TOSSED AROUND LIKE A PEE-WEE! ****!
Briere: His legs can't keep up anymore. Plus it seems that the concussions screwed up his peripheral vision or something, because he has troubles tracking pucks and players. So he's useless 5-on-5.

I leave Bournival and Prust out of it because the offense isn't their job.

So this is why the Habs' offense is gone. We got 3 midgets who are useless offensively 5-on-5 (Gio, DD, Briere) because they are too easily neutralized. We got 2 big wingers who are scared to go in traffic and crash the net (Bourque, Pacioretty) and we've got one playmaking center with nobody to make plays for (Plekanec).

Almost all combinations of lines have been tried with those guys, so can't really find anything that hasn't been tried before.

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11-17-2013, 11:58 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
**** this man, time to put Gionta in the press box. He has cooled of and Plekanec can't carry him any more.
I think you're overreacting somewhat. Gionta is not nearly that bad. He's defensively responsible, a good leader and can provide more offence than most of our other options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
We all really like Bournival and Plek together. They formed an effective line that was responsible defensively, and creative / talented enough to score some nice goals.

I also agree that Patches-Briere-Bourque would be a decent line that can score. If only Therrien would see this...
So it wasn't just me, lol. I totally agree with what you've said. I love Bournival's speed with Pleks too.

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11-17-2013, 11:58 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
What?
Give Desharnais Paccioretty's size and speed and he's an all-star player.

Which doesn't mean I think he's a great, or even a good player. But his offensive instincts are probably better than anyone on this team.

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11-17-2013, 12:00 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
I'm sorry, but I think all this line changing has hurt the team more than helped it. Also, we should keep the EGG line together - this will draw top defensive pairings away, leaving Patches able to take advantage, at least in theory.

I have:

EGG line
Patches - Briere - Bourque
Bournival - Pleks - Gionta/Prust

I really, really like Bournival and Plekanec together. I think surrounding Briere (AS CENTRE) with our two big wingers, that he could thrive.
Shuffling the lines is a temporary fix to get the offence going. Separating Plex and Gio is a must as they do nothing together.

Also, I'd like to see Patches with Chucky as they will likely be the top line players and play with each other for the Olympic team.

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11-17-2013, 12:02 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Shuffling the lines is a temporary fix to get the offence going. Separating Plex and Gio is a must as they do nothing together.

Also, I'd like to see Patches with Chucky as they will likely be the top line players and play with each other for the Olympic team.
Galchenyuk probably won't make the Olympic team unless he goes on a tear. He's just so young and not developed enough imo. Don't get me wrong though, I love the guy and would love it if he made it, even if he'd be in direct competition with team Canada.

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11-17-2013, 12:03 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
Give Desharnais Paccioretty's size and speed and he's an all-star player.

Which doesn't mean I think he's a great, or even a good player. But his offensive instincts are probably better than anyone on this team.
I think Galchenyuk has the best offensive instincts, but DD's are good nonetheless.

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11-17-2013, 12:16 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Galchenyuk probably won't make the Olympic team unless he goes on a tear. He's just so young and not developed enough imo. Don't get me wrong though, I love the guy and would love it if he made it, even if he'd be in direct competition with team Canada.
He was on the invite list, is second in points on the Habs and can play at Wong or centre. If the US wants to go young as they normally do, then I think his odds aren't that bad.

Besides, even if he doesn't make it this year, he'll likely make it next time around. Point is they will both likely be teammates for the US in the future as well as for the Habs. Why not play them together to help develop some chemistry?

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11-17-2013, 12:29 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
He was on the invite list, is second in points on the Habs and can play at Wong or centre. If the US wants to go young as they normally do, then I think his odds aren't that bad.

Besides, even if he doesn't make it this year, he'll likely make it next time around. Point is they will both likely be teammates for the US in the future as well as for the Habs. Why not play them together to help develop some chemistry?
Still, there are just too many players that are as good offensively right now, and better defensively. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see him make it, but I think it'll be based on current play, not developing for the future. If he's not good enough, they won't take him - they want to win. I have no doubt it my mind he'll be the #1 centre for the US in the future, possibly as soon as next Olympics.

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11-17-2013, 01:06 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Teams are bottling up our puck-moving defence. They're forechecking harder and deeper in our zone, forcing Markov and Subban to hurry their passes. It's working. Habs passing has become a series of desperate flips, hail-Marys and two-line bombs. Result: Our puck-possession has disappeared because we can't start a proper rush out of our own zone. We're stuck in our zone or we try a long pass that misses, bringing us back into our zone.

The fast breakout worked last season, but other teams have adapted to us. When is Therrien going to adapt in turn?
Excellent post.
Simply put, our goal scorers cannot score if the puck is not being brought to them. Which is why I mad a proposal on the Trade Rumor Forum to get us on of the bet outlet passers in the game (Gorges, Desharnais, 1st for Campbell) .

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11-17-2013, 01:11 PM
  #41
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Our veterans are struggling and I dont expect that to change. Bourque and Gionta are way too inconsistent. Pleky doesnt have much supporting cast besides if Max Pac gets going. I would love to do a trade.

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11-17-2013, 01:14 PM
  #42
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All teams have to do is shut down the kid line and we won't produce. Subban's creativity and confidence is all but gone under Therrien it seems, at least offensively, so that's another thing.

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11-17-2013, 01:16 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Still, there are just too many players that are as good offensively right now, and better defensively. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see him make it, but I think it'll be based on current play, not developing for the future. If he's not good enough, they won't take him - they want to win. I have no doubt it my mind he'll be the #1 centre for the US in the future, possibly as soon as next Olympics.
Ok. Future will tell. This is very far off my initial post of mixing the lines up and seeing patches play with our best playmaker.

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11-17-2013, 01:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Ok. Future will tell. This is very far off my initial post of mixing the lines up and seeing patches play with our best playmaker.
True. Still an interesting discussion.

But I like the EGG line together still. If they go cold, then break it up.

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11-17-2013, 01:30 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by FazChenyuk View Post
Our veterans are struggling and I dont expect that to change. Bourque and Gionta are way too inconsistent. Pleky doesnt have much supporting cast besides if Max Pac gets going. I would love to do a trade.
We do need to make several trades. But that's not likely to happen now.

I always refer back to the Bruins when talking about a team to emulate and model. We have enough talent on this team. We just do not have execution or a plan to execute scoring.

Boston is very good at isolating and exploiting two on ones. Not an odd man rush, but two on ones while in possession of the puck in the offensive zone. They do this with cycling and give and goes. There is ALWAYS a Bruins player skating toward the net anticipating a pass from anywhere in the O zone.

Our PP at times is a thing of beauty with players constantly moving and with great passing. But when we get to 5 on 5, the puck movement and player movement stops. We no longer have a player (like Markov does on the PP) skating in toward the net on the weak side looking for an easy shot.

Simple fix but it requires effort on behalf of the coaching staff at practice to develop, practice and refine an offensive system.....exactly like the Bruins'........to exploit our quickness.

Dump and chase and perimeter shooting will not get it done.

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11-17-2013, 01:33 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
True. Still an interesting discussion.

But I like the EGG line together still. If they go cold, then break it up.
I see what Seguin and Benn are doing with each other in Dallas and I think Patches and Chucky could be even better.

The EGG line is great together but it will eventually be broken up when Chucky assumes his natural position at centre. At that point, it only makes sense to put him with our best goal scorer in Patches. Don't know why we haven't seen them together yet.

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11-17-2013, 01:40 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I see what Seguin and Benn are doing with each other in Dallas and I think Patches and Chucky could be even better.

The EGG line is great together but it will eventually be broken up when Chucky assumes his natural position at centre. At that point, it only makes sense to put him with our best goal scorer in Patches. Don't know why we haven't seen them together yet.
We have. They played together for 1 period, and Patches hit a crossbar from the slot. They were solid together. Then they played 2 periods together the next game but were quickly separated.

Patches was back with DD the following game.

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11-17-2013, 01:41 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I see what Seguin and Benn are doing with each other in Dallas and I think Patches and Chucky could be even better.

The EGG line is great together but it will eventually be broken up when Chucky assumes his natural position at centre. At that point, it only makes sense to put him with our best goal scorer in Patches. Don't know why we haven't seen them together yet.
I could've sworn they've played together some.

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11-17-2013, 02:02 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
We have. They played together for 1 period, and Patches hit a crossbar from the slot. They were solid together. Then they played 2 periods together the next game but were quickly separated.

[I]Patches was back with DD the following game[/I].
Therein lies the problem.

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11-17-2013, 02:23 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by KoZed View Post
EGG are assigned opponent's top defensive guys, so it's understandable that they settle at a lower scoring pace.

For the rest of the top 9 forwards, it's simple: they play passive, perimeter games. Nobody's driving the net.

Plekanec: plays his usual smart perimeter game, but got nobody on his line to create space and/or complete his plays
Gionta: the most overpaid 5'7" glorified checking winger in the NHL today. Because that's all he is now. A defensive forward. He has 0 offense left. His biceps injuries killed his shot, he's still a horrible passer and he gets rid of the puck 90% of the time.
Pacioretty: either his hamstring injury is not fully healed, or he has become a skittish perimeter player. Notice how he stops skating and lets himself glide everytime he's 1-on-1 now. Also avoids going in traffic now.
Bourque: works hard one shift, than invisible the next. Misses tons of chances and whenever he shoots it's deflected by a stick. Doesn't crash the net as often as he should.
Desharnais: STOP TRYING TO GRIND IT OUT WHEN YOU ARE TOSSED AROUND LIKE A PEE-WEE! ****!
Briere: His legs can't keep up anymore. Plus it seems that the concussions screwed up his peripheral vision or something, because he has troubles tracking pucks and players. So he's useless 5-on-5.

I leave Bournival and Prust out of it because the offense isn't their job.

So this is why the Habs' offense is gone. We got 3 midgets who are useless offensively 5-on-5 (Gio, DD, Briere) because they are too easily neutralized. We got 2 big wingers who are scared to go in traffic and crash the net (Bourque, Pacioretty) and we've got one playmaking center with nobody to make plays for (Plekanec).

Almost all combinations of lines have been tried with those guys, so can't really find anything that hasn't been tried before.
Two offensive lines:
Galchenyuk-Eller-Gallagher
Pacioretty-Briere/DD-Bourque

Two defensive or two-way lines:
Bournival-Plekanec-Gionta
Moen-Prust-White

Solid "fourth" line whose members can kill penalties and take pressure off Pleks and Eller. White can take defensive zone faceoffs on right side, but otherwise I prefer a RH shot on RW on a defensive line. Easier to get out of your zone.

"Third" line centre position up for grabs: it belongs to whoever performs; otherwise, Leblanc is waiting.

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