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Markov wants to stay in Montreal and wants one more contract

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Old
11-16-2013, 07:25 PM
  #201
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Just curious guys, if MB can get Markov to take a bit of a hometown discount, would PK follow? Probably, or not?
Maybe, but that would make him an idiot. This is his life and this contract is his best chance at lifetime succees. He should squeeze every dollar he can.

It is not as though Bergevin would ever give him an extra dollar.

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11-16-2013, 07:52 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Maybe, but that would make him an idiot. This is his life and this contract is his best chance at lifetime succees. He should squeeze every dollar he can.

It is not as though Bergevin would ever give him an extra dollar.
PK could take a 20% discount and still be set for life. When you spend all 8 months a year, working and travelling on the companies dime, you don't spend that much money. When you spend all summer working out like PK does, you also don't spend money.

Hockey players don't blow their money like other sports stars do. They are a lot smarter with it.

PK has enough charisma and talent and brains to also do well after hockey that he won't need his hockey money, he will still earn money.

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11-16-2013, 08:05 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
PK could take a 20% discount and still be set for life. When you spend all 8 months a year, working and travelling on the companies dime, you don't spend that much money. When you spend all summer working out like PK does, you also don't spend money.

Hockey players don't blow their money like other sports stars do. They are a lot smarter with it.

PK has enough charisma and talent and brains to also do well after hockey that he won't need his hockey money, he will still earn money.
He would make some good money doing promotions too.

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Old
11-16-2013, 08:07 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Maybe, but that would make him an idiot. This is his life and this contract is his best chance at financial succees. He should squeeze every dollar he can.

It is not as though Bergevin would ever give him an extra dollar.
fixed.

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11-16-2013, 08:21 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
PK could take a 20% discount and still be set for life. When you spend all 8 months a year, working and travelling on the companies dime, you don't spend that much money. When you spend all summer working out like PK does, you also don't spend money.

Hockey players don't blow their money like other sports stars do. They are a lot smarter with it.

PK has enough charisma and talent and brains to also do well after hockey that he won't need his hockey money, he will still earn money.
You should tell your boss that you want a 25% paycut, so that he can hire other people and you'll have a better time at the office, I bet you have more than what you "need"

There's no reason for Subban to take a hometown discount. He made $800,000 his first two years. He then made ~2.9 million in the latter two years, even though he was worth ~5.9 million. Bergevin nickeled and dimed him. The Habs have already gotten a discount.

The difference between market value for Subban (8 years, 8 million, 64 million total) and a hometown discount (6 years, 6.5 million, 39 million) is a ridiculous 25 million, or 12.5 million after taxes. If he throws that away to be a nice guy, then he's an idiot. Money is good to have in this dog-eat-dog world and you can never have too much. It's not up to you to decide how much Subban "needs".

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11-16-2013, 08:35 PM
  #206
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Like one poster said.6-5-4 mil for 3 yrs.I would be very happy.

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Old
11-17-2013, 04:05 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Dekar View Post
Except he was more physical. A LOT more physical. No one seems to remember how rough Markov was before his knee injuries.

It's a shame there's not much footage on YT, but this is a good start:

He was never a really physical guy. You can cherrypick plays all you want, he wasn't a physical defenseman.
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Markov's value is at its peak right now. We'd get a hefty return for someone that's a few years away from retirement.
Yup. But I think he has a limited NTC right?
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Originally Posted by billy piton View Post
Our young core (price, subban, galchenyuk, eller, gallagher, pacioretty, emelin) is about to break out and some of those guy are already there.

Why not to try what can they do next two or three years?

Trading markov for picks and prospects would kill any hope of doing anything significant for at least two-three years. Markov is a top pairing d-man and elite ppqb and it would be next
to impossible to find a replacement for god knows how long.
As I said above, we're going to lose him one way or the other. Either to trade or old age. He's not going to be the same player in three years that he is now. He's already lost a step.
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Originally Posted by billy piton View Post
And, it's not like our prospect pool is empty so there is a pressing need to trade markov. Late 1st pick and b-prospect won't make us contender. Trading markov would make us big time non-contender for next few years and maybe some more.
We're not contenders anyway. What it would do is extend the window for us to win. If we were winning this year like last, maybe a different story. But we're at an 'in between stage' and it's probably going to be a few years before we start winning.

And if we're going to keep Markov and go for it? Then deal some prospects for vets and go for it now. But do one or the other...
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
The ****? I never said Markov didn't make mistakes. All I'm saying is that Markov was miles above Kaberle defensivley. They were made comparable due to similar offensive output but defensively it wasn't even close. Something that Leaf fans knew this but never admitted to it and something that Habs fans found out first hand when Kaberle played in Montreal.
And unless you're talking about the Kaberle from the past few years, you'd be wrong.

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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
No. If you think Markov is defensively mediocre or coughed the puck under pressure, then you need to watch him play more. There's a reason why Montreal absolutely crumbled without him.
The reason why was offense. Our team was almost always bottom third in goals for and always top top ten in goals against. Markov's presence in the lineup made a HUGE difference to a mediocre offense and games that we'd normally win 2-1 were now won 2-1 instead. THAT was his value and it still is.

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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
No. All this shows is that Kaberle wasn't all that he was made out to be. They called it the Kaberle sweepstakes when he was on the trading block and sucked balls in Boston in the same year. Kaberle didn't decline. He was exposed.
He declined big time. Was way out of shape... Happens to a lot of guys in their 30s. Look at Robero Alomar. One year he's great then after an offseason he comes back terrible. Doesn't happen all the time but it happens to guys. Some just fall off a cliff and that's what happened to Kaberle.

Are you old enough to remember Kaberle in his prime? You aren't giving the guy near enough credit. He was a lot like Markov. As good? I wouldn't say so but others would. They were certainly comparable back in the day.

If you're talking about when he was with Boston or with us then no doubt it's not comparable. But that's not what I'm saying.
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
I've seen PK get bailed out by Markov more than the other way around. Anywayz, I think they mutually benefit from each other's presence but in no way do I believe or seen that PK is carrying Markov in that pairing.
You aren't watching the games closely enough. And if Emelin comes back and they're split up, this will become very obvious.
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Originally Posted by Edgy View Post
Markov was never great defensively? Your definition for great and defense doesn't seem to be what everyone else understands it.
Hab fans have always overrated the guy's D. He was never a liability but he was never great.

If he was, he'd have been nominated for the Norris.
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Originally Posted by Edgy View Post
How does the above quote not contradict the below?

Markov and Kaberle are similar?! In what world? I get you don't like Markov, but comparing him to Kaberle is beyond selling him short not to mention extremely disingenuous.
I like Markov a lot. I just think that Hab fans overrate him a lot. And its understandable because we went so long without a star that we build up players who were good into thinking that they were superstars.

Markov was never that calibre of player. He'd never be listed among the top blueliners like Neidermayer or Pronger or Chara or Lidstrom. On the flipside PK has already won a Norris at a very young age. He actually can be compared to the best in the league. He's THAT good. Markov never was.

That doesn't mean that I think Markov sucked. He was very good. But not the same caliber as Subban.

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Originally Posted by Edgy View Post
Really now, you're just goading people into continuing with an inane argument so you could throw more inflammatory comments.

Praising Markov does not take away anything from Subban, one does not thrive at the expense of the other. The blind hate for Markov is uncalled for and completely unjustified.
I'm not. And I don't want to do this. I just think that Montreal fans have overrated Markov for a long time. He's not in that top tier of blueliners in his generation. He's in the 2nd tier. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's had a great career and is STILL very good.

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11-17-2013, 04:47 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
As I said above, we're going to lose him one way or the other. Either to trade or old age. He's not going to be the same player in three years that he is now. He's already lost a step.
He's still better than any available defenseman for the money he will command. If you don't get better by a trade, no reason to do it.

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We're not contenders anyway. What it would do is extend the window for us to win. If we were winning this year like last, maybe a different story. But we're at an 'in between stage' and it's probably going to be a few years before we start winning.
That's why you need someone to mentor the kids that come up, I don't think Subban is up to that task just yet.

Quote:
And if we're going to keep Markov and go for it? Then deal some prospects for vets and go for it now. But do one or the other...
I don't want to sell the future for a bunch of vets that might or might not click and instead we'll end up like the Rangers of a few years past. All vets and no team.

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The reason why was offense. Our team was almost always bottom third in goals for and always top top ten in goals against. Markov's presence in the lineup made a HUGE difference to a mediocre offense and games that we'd normally win 2-1 were now won 2-1 instead. THAT was his value and it still is.
How is that bad thing?

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He declined big time. Was way out of shape... Happens to a lot of guys in their 30s. Look at Robero Alomar. One year he's great then after an offseason he comes back terrible. Doesn't happen all the time but it happens to guys. Some just fall off a cliff and that's what happened to Kaberle.
He was injured and hasn't played in almost 2 years, he's shown he's rebounded quite well so far this season.

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Are you old enough to remember Kaberle in his prime? You aren't giving the guy near enough credit. He was a lot like Markov. As good? I wouldn't say so but others would. They were certainly comparable back in the day.
Markov was consensus top 10 in the league prior to his injuries. Can't say the same about Kaberle.

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You aren't watching the games closely enough. And if Emelin comes back and they're split up, this will become very obvious.
I'm willing to take you up on this.

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Hab fans have always overrated the guy's D. He was never a liability but he was never great.
Let's say that we Habs fan do that, what about the rest of the fan bases? As I said before, the guy was consensus top 10 in the league prior to injury.

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If he was, he'd have been nominated for the Norris
So you think Karlsson is better than Markov too?

Only time will tell if Subban and Karlsson belong with the likes of Lidstrom, Bourque and Chelios but right now I hesitate to classify them as such.

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Markov was never that calibre of player. He'd never be listed among the top blueliners like Neidermayer or Pronger or Chara or Lidstrom. On the flipside PK has already won a Norris at a very young age. He actually can be compared to the best in the league. He's THAT good. Markov never was.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ghlight=markov

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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Presently, who is the best defencemen in the NHL (from the list), or who would you want for next season only (independent of: linemates, team he plays for, injury/injury proneness, salary, etc)?

1. Lidstrom 38%
2. Chara 45%
3. Weber 41%
4. Pronger 37%
5. Keith 43%
6. Suter 53%
7. Doughty 70%
8. Boyle 23%
9. Markov 20%
10. Enstrom 20%
Quote:
I'm not. And I don't want to do this. I just think that Montreal fans have overrated Markov for a long time. He's not in that top tier of blueliners in his generation. He's in the 2nd tier. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's had a great career and is STILL very good.
Again, the link above says we're not the only ones that thought highly of him. He's still very good indeed and perhaps if he hadn't gotten injured he would have been far greater but to write him off or trade him right now would be a huge mistake.

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11-17-2013, 05:00 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And unless you're talking about the Kaberle from the past few years, you'd be wrong.

The reason why was offense. Our team was almost always bottom third in goals for and always top top ten in goals against. Markov's presence in the lineup made a HUGE difference to a mediocre offense and games that we'd normally win 2-1 were now won 2-1 instead. THAT was his value and it still is.
How simplistic to tack it on to point production. Surely it had nothing to do with having a guy who infused a transition game, able to break up plays and clear the zone.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He declined big time. Was way out of shape... Happens to a lot of guys in their 30s. Look at Robero Alomar. One year he's great then after an offseason he comes back terrible. Doesn't happen all the time but it happens to guys. Some just fall off a cliff and that's what happened to Kaberle.
Out of shape...right. If all he had to do was get in shape then he wouldn't be out of the NHL right now.


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Are you old enough to remember Kaberle in his prime? You aren't giving the guy near enough credit. He was a lot like Markov. As good? I wouldn't say so but others would. They were certainly comparable back in the day.
Yes I am and always knew that his point production masked his defensive shortcomings to a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You aren't watching the games closely enough. And if Emelin comes back and they're split up, this will become very obvious.
Do me a favor and pay better attention in the next game and maybe you'll notice the moments I'm taking about.

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Old
11-17-2013, 05:41 PM
  #210
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I want to see one of the following two options:


Gorges - Subban

Markov - Emelin

Tinordi - Diaz


or


Emelin - Subban

Edler - Girardi

Tinordi - Gorges

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Old
11-17-2013, 07:54 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgy View Post
He's still better than any available defenseman for the money he will command. If you don't get better by a trade, no reason to do it.


That's why you need someone to mentor the kids that come up, I don't think Subban is up to that task just yet.


I don't want to sell the future for a bunch of vets that might or might not click and instead we'll end up like the Rangers of a few years past. All vets and no team.



How is that bad thing?


He was injured and hasn't played in almost 2 years, he's shown he's rebounded quite well so far this season.


Markov was consensus top 10 in the league prior to his injuries. Can't say the same about Kaberle.


I'm willing to take you up on this.


Let's say that we Habs fan do that, what about the rest of the fan bases? As I said before, the guy was consensus top 10 in the league prior to injury.


So you think Karlsson is better than Markov too?

Only time will tell if Subban and Karlsson belong with the likes of Lidstrom, Bourque and Chelios but right now I hesitate to classify them as such.


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ghlight=markov





Again, the link above says we're not the only ones that thought highly of him. He's still very good indeed and perhaps if he hadn't gotten injured he would have been far greater but to write him off or trade him right now would be a huge mistake.
You've got a bunch of strawman arguments here. "How is that a bad thing?" Really?

Dude, don't waste my time...
Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
How simplistic to tack it on to point production. Surely it had nothing to do with having a guy who infused a transition game, able to break up plays and clear the zone.



Out of shape...right. If all he had to do was get in shape then he wouldn't be out of the NHL right now.




Yes I am and always knew that his point production masked his defensive shortcomings to a lot of people.



Do me a favor and pay better attention in the next game and maybe you'll notice the moments I'm taking about.
If/when they're split, you'll see what I'm talking about. We saw it last season and we saw it at the start of this one. Markov isn't doing the heavy lifting on that line.

Doesn't mean he's not good.

As for Kaberle... again, Leaf fans had him in the top ten in his prime. Same with Hab fans for Markov. Neither though were in that top tier group. Top ten for either one? Maybe. You want to say Markov was better? Sure, I'd say he was too. But not by much. And ten years from now when their careers are over neither will be remembered as a dominant blueliner with the exception of some in their respective fan bases. Good blueliners but not in the top tier.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 11-17-2013 at 08:02 PM.
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11-17-2013, 09:03 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You've got a bunch of strawman arguments here. "How is that a bad thing?" Really?

Dude, don't waste my time...

If/when they're split, you'll see what I'm talking about. We saw it last season and we saw it at the start of this one. Markov isn't doing the heavy lifting on that line.

Doesn't mean he's not good.

As for Kaberle... again, Leaf fans had him in the top ten in his prime. Same with Hab fans for Markov. Neither though were in that top tier group. Top ten for either one? Maybe. You want to say Markov was better? Sure, I'd say he was too. But not by much. And ten years from now when their careers are over neither will be remembered as a dominant blueliner with the exception of some in their respective fan bases. Good blueliners but not in the top tier.
Strawman arguments? lol really? So you see winning games that we usualy would lose is a bad thing. Gotcha. Great logic and argument there buddy.

You said he was overrated by Habs fans and I show you a poll prior to his injuries where non-Habs fans voted and he's coming up top 10 and all you can muster is "don't waste my time"

When you have no argument, pack it in instead of being obstinate in the face of facts.


Last edited by Edgy: 11-17-2013 at 09:04 PM. Reason: typo
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Old
11-17-2013, 09:08 PM
  #213
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Strawman arguments? lol really?
Yes really. Look at your next sentence...
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So you see winning games that we usualy would lose is a bad thing.
Strawman argument.

Look it up.

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11-17-2013, 09:16 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yes really. Look at your next sentence...

Strawman argument.

Look it up.
obstinate, look it up.
Put up a counter argument or pack it up. You have no leg to stand on.

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11-18-2013, 02:01 PM
  #215
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Is Friedman's comment about Markov's insurability, a factor?

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Another thing to remember about Markov, who remains one of the game's smartest players, is that his upcoming deal may not be insurable for pre-existing conditions. It's a common issue for guys who've battled a lot of injuries. It adds risk for teams, especially since he will soon be 35 years old, meaning his next deal cannot come off the salary cap.

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11-18-2013, 04:02 PM
  #216
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Is Friedman's comment about Markov's insurability, a factor?
I don't think the Habs are too hard up for cash in general... so I doubt it's a HUGE factor, end of the day. But they can point to it in negotiations, anyway, if there's a real risk factor there, and hopefully save a few bucks.

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11-18-2013, 09:31 PM
  #217
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Pass....his 5 million would be bettter spent elsewhere.....

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11-18-2013, 09:34 PM
  #218
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3 years, $15M. Do it.
Three years for a guy who is made of glass? No thanks....no way, this team has more pressing needs then ensuring Markov retires as a Hab...

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11-18-2013, 09:37 PM
  #219
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Three years for a guy who is made of glass? No thanks....no way, this team has more pressing needs then ensuring Markov retires as a Hab...
Yeah, like letting a #1 dman walk for nothing and finishing in the lottery again. Brilliant plan chap.

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11-18-2013, 09:39 PM
  #220
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Yeah, like letting a #1 dman walk for nothing and finishing in the lottery again. Brilliant plan chap.
brb buying Habs McDavid jersey.

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11-18-2013, 09:43 PM
  #221
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Yeah, like letting a #1 dman walk for nothing and finishing in the lottery again. Brilliant plan chap.
I don't think anyone's suggesting letting him walk for nothing. If Markov has a NTC and decides to use it then we've got little choice but to re-sign him.

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11-18-2013, 09:46 PM
  #222
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Yeah, like letting a #1 dman walk for nothing and finishing in the lottery again. Brilliant plan chap.
Hes not a number one defenceman anymore sorry.... Maybe four or five years ago....but not now take off the rose coloured glasses

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11-18-2013, 10:33 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Westcoasthabsfan View Post
Hes not a number one defenceman anymore sorry.... Maybe four or five years ago....but not now take off the rose coloured glasses
Perhaphs but there is no better guy to groom a kid like tinnordi.

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11-18-2013, 11:12 PM
  #224
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Hes not a number one defenceman anymore sorry.... Maybe four or five years ago....but not now take off the rose coloured glasses
the guy still plays more than Subban.

And that "glass" player is now on a 82 games iron streak... Lol. Only Gorges has a longer streak on D(with Habs, Bouillon doesn't count).

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11-18-2013, 11:31 PM
  #225
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the guy still plays more than Subban.

And that "glass" player is now on a 82 games iron streak... Lol. Only Gorges has a longer streak on D(with Habs, Bouillon doesn't count).
Yeah that the idiot coaches fault...the reigning Norris trophy winner should be playing the most minutes and in all situations....

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