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Old
11-16-2013, 08:33 PM
  #776
Jek McPorkins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
heh, I suspected you were in the tire industry, just a feeling I got from having these discussions before. The bolded is of course a good point.

But again its all in fun. I just enjoy the discussion and thanks for engaging civilly. I find it a very interesting topic. I have huge interest in marketing approaches for some reason but from a consume less perspective if that makes any sense. I'm a devout nologo kind of guy.

As a consumer I'm told I now need snow tires, ABS. antilock breaks, 4wheel drive, traction control, home security, life insurance, work insurance, death insurance, medical insurance, GPS, smart phones, tech gadgets, and a whole array of "don't leave home without it" things that I never really needed before. Some of this is about getting the consumer to just consume more. People get to decide which posited needs aren't for them. Because its definitely a growth industry to tell people they need everything.

ps I find this conversation much more enjoyable then talking about the team or writing reports.
GPS is my new BFF. It's the one tech advancement that makes driving so much easier. The rest may get a good driver out of a bad situation once in awhile, but with each year I tend to agree with you more: Slow down and pay attention.

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Old
11-16-2013, 09:55 PM
  #777
Gord
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for those of you with two sets of tires, where do you keep them?
I have no where to store another set of tires, if I purchased them.

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11-16-2013, 10:15 PM
  #778
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its like Christmas tradition, haha.

Just trying to help people save their time and money. Also to reinforce safe driving. All seasons is not for everybody. But skilled drivers can do just as well with very little difference. That said if its my son or daughter I'm not saying this. Which is fair enough.

For inexperienced drivers snow tires are better I guess.

In anycase its just a discussion, no ill will or anything and just putting different information out there.

If anything all the advertising that tells me I'm irresponsible, terrible, and harm children and families if I don't have snowtires kind of offends me. So theres a bit of reaction with the mercantile approach to selling these tires. The product is better than the way its sold lol.
I don't respond well to being guilted into purchasing something I feel isn't needed.
All I ever drove when I was younger was RWD 1/2 tons and never put much stock whatsoever into a winter tire and I got around just fine; I don't ever recall putting my truck in the rhubarb in the winter...of course, I always drove to the road conditions. This all changed in 2004 when gas prices started creeping up to an outrageous 75.9 cents/liter ()and I got my first FWD car, a Dodge SX 2.0 which my wife & I still own today. I am TERRIFIED to drive this thing with even a hint of snow on the roads with all seasons on. It is like driving with banana peels on and it doesn't matter what brand or style of all season either, it is all over the place. Put winter tires on and it's a totally different car. I even had a Mazda B4000 with all seasons and I never thought about putting winter tires on it and rarely ever used the 4WD. Sometimes, it's just the car and its design I think. I got sick of doing the Fall/Spring changeover (here's a hint...if you have winter tires mounted and balanced on rims, Wal-Mart will change them over for about $35 if you are unable to do it yourself whereas any tire shop where I live charges around $80) so this year I bought a set of those Nokian WRG2s about three weeks ago. We have had three storms since, including the day I got them and they perform very well for being a step below a dedicated winter tire. I'd wager to say I don't even notice a difference between them and my dedicated winter set.

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Old
11-16-2013, 10:38 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Gord View Post
for those of you with two sets of tires, where do you keep them?
I have no where to store another set of tires, if I purchased them.
The living room.

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Old
11-16-2013, 10:45 PM
  #780
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Replacement, your arguments are illogical and potentially dangerous if others adopt them.

Winter tires are factually far superior in performance, which you admit. Then you say they are not necessary. That is BS. What you continually do is obfuscate the argument and try to make it about driving skill, when it is not. Given two equally responsible drivers, one with winter tires and the other without, there is absolutely no doubt that the far superior braking, accelerating and manoeuvring capabilities of the person driving the car with winter tires would result in a higher rate of accident avoidance.

The proponents of winter tires are not saying that defensive driving is not important. Rather it is important to do everything possible to maximize accident avoidance. Focusing solely on defensive driving is a red herring from the fact that winter tires are efficacious.

You say that statistics show that accident rates have not changed over time. Even if that were true, it ignores the growth in traffic and the corresponding huge, potentially exponential, increase in potential accident situations that has occurred. You are blind to the other factors at play because you subscribe to a false dogma based around a preconception that winter tires only exist for corporate profit. Your anecdotal evidence is really of zero value.

Also, your arguments ignore the fact that, regardless of defensive driving, emergency situations are sometimes forced on drivers by others. In these circumstances, there is absolutely no doubt that having winter tires significantly increases your chances of being able to successfully complete emergency manoeuvres. Looking at only prevention is shortsighted and just another facet of your dogma.

Also, while I am at it, you are insulting other technologies that have been shown to significantly reduce death and serious injury. The most important new-ish techs for saving lives are stability control and side curtain airbags.

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Old
11-16-2013, 11:04 PM
  #781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggli G View Post
Replacement, your arguments are illogical and potentially dangerous if others adopt them.

Winter tires are factually far superior in performance, which you admit. Then you say they are not necessary. That is BS. What you continually do is obfuscate the argument and try to make it about driving skill, when it is not. Given two equally responsible drivers, one with winter tires and the other without, there is absolutely no doubt that the far superior braking, accelerating and manoeuvring capabilities of the person driving the car with winter tires would result in a higher rate of accident avoidance.

The proponents of winter tires are not saying that defensive driving is not important. Rather it is important to do everything possible to maximize accident avoidance. Focusing solely on defensive driving is a red herring from the fact that winter tires are efficacious.

You say that statistics show that accident rates have not changed over time. Even if that were true, it ignores the growth in traffic and the corresponding huge, potentially exponential, increase in potential accident situations that has occurred. You are blind to the other factors at play because you subscribe to a false dogma based around a preconception that winter tires only exist for corporate profit. Your anecdotal evidence is really of zero value.

Also, your arguments ignore the fact that, regardless of defensive driving, emergency situations are sometimes forced on drivers by others. In these circumstances, there is absolutely no doubt that having winter tires significantly increases your chances of being able to successfully complete emergency manoeuvres. Looking at only prevention is shortsighted and just another facet of your dogma.

Also, while I am at it, you are insulting other technologies that have been shown to significantly reduce death and serious injury. The most important new-ish techs for saving lives are stability control and side curtain airbags.
My main impetus in the comments has been talking about safe and defensive driving. So i don't think its fair to state I'm endangering people and certainly not my intent.

Next, I never mentioned airbags which are a good and reasonable safety future(except arguably for children who can be seriously harmed by an airbag) I did cite ABS as most problematic. Theres been countless lawsuits, very serious accidents due to malfunctioning ABS, and the onset of ABS brakes INCREASED serious accidents and fatalities in several jurisdictions.

I have no idea what you mean in the bolded. Rates are rates, the numbers of course not being impacted by "growth in traffic" whatever you mean by that.

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Old
11-16-2013, 11:48 PM
  #782
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I'll chime in on this discussion as someone that does not have winter tires. I do drive a 4x4 for the sole purpose of winter driving on heavy snowfall days. I just do not have the space for an extra set of tires...

Winter tires are nice to have, but if you don't get them, then you need to drive for the weather. Don't make any sudden turns or stops, drive slow, and watch for idiots (as always). I don't think that winter tires are fool proof and I'd bet there are just as many accidents with snow tires as without because of the 'false sense of security' that the snow tires can provide. Some people will still drive like maniacs because they think they can and one slippy section can take out you, your passengers, and others on the road no matter what your tire tread looks like.

Just my opinion.

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Old
11-16-2013, 11:50 PM
  #783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord View Post
for those of you with two sets of tires, where do you keep them?
I have no where to store another set of tires, if I purchased them.
Get yourself some oversized pillow cases. Then you can keep them on your bed.

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Old
11-16-2013, 11:59 PM
  #784
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Winter tires rock.

They keep my wife's car on the road, away from the ditch and from the bumpers of other cars.

Mandatory, they should be.

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Old
11-17-2013, 01:02 AM
  #785
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If anyone here believes winter tires have no advantage to all(no)season tires, I don't even know what to say.

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Old
11-17-2013, 11:15 AM
  #786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord View Post
for those of you with two sets of tires, where do you keep them?
I have no where to store another set of tires, if I purchased them.
A lot of place will store your tires for you (Kal Tire for example) they have a big warehouse where they keep their customers second sets of tires.

There's also places like Tire Hotel that exist only to serve that purpose. There's alot of people who live in apartments but own multiple sets of tires.

Check out tirehotel.ca you'll see that a ton of garages around town are affiliated with them and if you ask them about it they'll get you all set up


Last edited by SephF: 11-17-2013 at 11:22 AM.
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Old
11-17-2013, 11:41 AM
  #787
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Anyone here use studded winter tires? Kind of surprised I don't see them very often, is it just due to the road noise that people don't like them?

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Old
11-17-2013, 03:38 PM
  #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
My main impetus in the comments has been talking about safe and defensive driving. So i don't think its fair to state I'm endangering people and certainly not my intent.

Next, I never mentioned airbags which are a good and reasonable safety future(except arguably for children who can be seriously harmed by an airbag) I did cite ABS as most problematic. Theres been countless lawsuits, very serious accidents due to malfunctioning ABS, and the onset of ABS brakes INCREASED serious accidents and fatalities in several jurisdictions.

I have no idea what you mean in the bolded. Rates are rates, the numbers of course not being impacted by "growth in traffic" whatever you mean by that.
No. You are basically implying snow tires are useless as long as you have safe driving habits and people are wasting money buying it.

Check this article out:

http://ca.autoblog.com/2013/11/15/sn...-driving-cold/

Gist is if you can buy them, do so. You are potentially saving yours and another's life when you hit the road.

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Old
11-17-2013, 03:39 PM
  #789
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Originally Posted by oilblue View Post
Anyone here use studded winter tires? Kind of surprised I don't see them very often, is it just due to the road noise that people don't like them?
I believe only select tires can be properly studded.

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Old
11-17-2013, 03:51 PM
  #790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord View Post
for those of you with two sets of tires, where do you keep them?
I have no where to store another set of tires, if I purchased them.

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Old
11-17-2013, 03:57 PM
  #791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
No. You are basically implying snow tires are useless as long as you have safe driving habits and people are wasting money buying it.

Check this article out:

http://ca.autoblog.com/2013/11/15/sn...-driving-cold/

Gist is if you can buy them, do so. You are potentially saving yours and another's life when you hit the road.
The prelude argument in the article is a falsehood;

" In today's rapid-paced environment, cars (and people) need to move fast and safely. "

From the word go thats an invented need. Pure marketing technique. The advertising industry really needs to do a better job being convincing. The manufactured lies don't cut it.

If I can add this is also selling tires on the basis of going FASTER. Which is what I've been saying all along is people are induced to drive faster with snow tires. lol that its even foremost in the advertising. That the need and reason for snow tires is to drive faster.

Look as well what this source is. A source and article sponsored by Canadian Tire. lol. No Bias ply there...

excuse the pun.

Also go on AMA road reports sometime. All day anyday on the twitter feed you have people lambasting other drivers on why they're not driving fast enough. As if its a race out there, in terrible road conditions. This sorry tirade occurring in every jurisdiction with Snow tire acolytes chiding other drivers for not going fast enough. You know, like the aggressive driver riding a bumper on a freeway in slippery conditions on a 4-6 lane road.

So is it fast or safe? Maybe the auto industry should decide which they're going with. Because its quite arguable that these are mutually exclusive.

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11-17-2013, 04:12 PM
  #792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
The prelude argument in the article is a falsehood;

" In today's rapid-paced environment, cars (and people) need to move fast and safely. "

From the word go thats an invented need. Pure marketing technique. The advertising industry really needs to do a better job being convincing. The manufactured lies don't cut it.

If I can add this is also selling tires on the basis of going FASTER. Which is what I've been saying all along is people are induced to drive faster with snow tires. lol that its even foremost in the advertising. That the need and reason for snow tires is to drive faster.

Look as well what this source is. A source and article sponsored by Canadian Tire. lol. No Bias ply there...

excuse the pun.

Also go on AMA road reports sometime. All day anyday on the twitter feed you have people lambasting other drivers on why they're not driving fast enough. As if its a race out there, in terrible road conditions. This sorry tirade occurring in every jurisdiction with Snow tire acolytes chiding other drivers for not going fast enough. You know, like the aggressive driver riding a bumper on a freeway in slippery conditions on a 4-6 lane road.

So is it fast or safe? Maybe the auto industry should decide which they're going with. Because its quite arguable that these are mutually exclusive.
Dont get me wrong. Driving fast in winter conditions, unless you are rally racing [which Edmonton is not primo location for], is just plain stupid and dangerous.


Discounting the efficacy of winter tires, which is what you are doing, is just as absurd.

Is it a lot of marketing lingo? Sure but that doesn't mean they are useless.

FTR, I drive safe year round-none of the at the must be speed limit with 10kph "allowance". Given the choice, in these conditions, I would never risk slip and slide at 30kph in all seasons if I have winters in the garage [which I do and always install early October]

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Old
11-17-2013, 05:02 PM
  #793
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Dont get me wrong. Driving fast in winter conditions, unless you are rally racing [which Edmonton is not primo location for], is just plain stupid and dangerous.


Discounting the efficacy of winter tires, which is what you are doing, is just as absurd.

Is it a lot of marketing lingo? Sure but that doesn't mean they are useless.

FTR, I drive safe year round-none of the at the must be speed limit with 10kph "allowance". Given the choice, in these conditions, I would never risk slip and slide at 30kph in all seasons if I have winters in the garage [which I do and always install early October]
Its all good.

Don't take me the wrong way. At no time have I questioned the stopping efficacy.

Throughout this conversation I've focused a lot on what it possibly does to the driver behind the wheel. For instance increased speed compromising the stopping distance.

But really poor form, and poor strategy for an article on the tech involved in winter tires to start out with an ill advised falsehood. Indeed its the platform statement that the piece is built on and its a falsehood.
I also wonder if its a case of "knowing the market" and that as many people buy snowtires for speed, performance, for use in bad road conditions, rather than safety. Its very revealing that the speed, go fast, pitch is used.

I've been upfront that one of my chief issues with the industry is the means in which they try to sell their tires.
I am somewhat guilty of throwing out the baby with the bathwater I suppose. But the tires pitches have never been very convincing imo.

But Like I said in a more demanding environment I would be using snow tires.

cheers

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Old
11-18-2013, 10:29 PM
  #794
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Snowfall warning issued. Up to 15cm possible in certain areas overnight.

http://weather.gc.ca/warnings/report...921cweg-076400

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Old
11-18-2013, 10:29 PM
  #795
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This is an incredible amount of snow. And apparently there's (a lot) more to come overnight?

Love it!

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11-18-2013, 10:36 PM
  #796
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If anyone here believes winter tires have no advantage to all(no)season tires, I don't even know what to say.
It also depends on what tires you're talking about. I've had all season tires that were better than some previous winter tires (and I was up North, not down here in Vancouver like I am now). There's not denying that a set of quality winter tires is best though

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11-18-2013, 10:42 PM
  #797
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I was never proponent of Snow tires. Last Year I bought some for the wifes van what a difference. I grew up on RWD vehicles hell it was just a feel for the skids in winter. The newer vehicles with FWD hell when they snap loose they are heading any which way but loose. I miss they old E brake spins I did in my teens and 20's. if you can afford Snow tires thumbs up for them but if you can't just be aware as it gets colder the the tires loose grip and speed needs to drop as the contact pad is still the same. Drive for the equipment you have

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11-18-2013, 10:44 PM
  #798
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Anyone here use studded winter tires? Kind of surprised I don't see them very often, is it just due to the road noise that people don't like them?
I got my wife's car studded tires. The noise is not that much more on bare pavement, just turn the radio a bit louder. But these tires are totally worth it, incredible grip in these conditions.

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Old
11-18-2013, 10:55 PM
  #799
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Originally Posted by RKD View Post
This is an incredible amount of snow. And apparently there's (a lot) more to come overnight?

Love it!
you enjoy shoveling snow, driving in snow and brushing off the snow after 15 cm falls?
me? my arms are tired already from shoveling and I hate the drivers on the road when it snows...so many potential accidents

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11-18-2013, 10:56 PM
  #800
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your arm is tired? this is high quality snow. its pure puff. its weightless!

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