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cammalleri to Vancouver per fan 960

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Old
11-20-2013, 03:11 AM
  #176
biturbo19
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I didn't get any impression from Roy, positive or negative.

I think that the Canucks probably showed zero inclination towards re-signing him(and to be honest, they might have been handcuffed capwise due to Booth's contract)

Anyways, my point is that it's okay to move futures for players on the last year of their contract, as long as you can re-sign them.
At what Roy ended up making, the Canucks could've fit him in. They didn't. I think that's pretty telling.

And my point remains, it's okay to move future for players that you actually want to re-sign. imo, you give up substantial assets for the players you truly covet if and when they become even slightly available. You don't go tossing around your assets for the cast-offs from a bad team.

Roy isn't a player i'd want to build my 'core' around. Neither is Mike Cammalleri...and more than a couple of teams seem to have decided much the same on Cammy.

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Old
11-20-2013, 03:16 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
At what Roy ended up making, the Canucks could've fit him in. They didn't. I think that's pretty telling.

And my point remains, it's okay to move future for players that you actually want to re-sign. imo, you give up substantial assets for the players you truly covet if and when they become even slightly available. You don't go tossing around your assets for the cast-offs from a bad team.

Roy isn't a player i'd want to build my 'core' around. Neither is Mike Cammalleri...and more than a couple of teams seem to have decided much the same on Cammy.
We could not have fit Roy unless we bought out Booth, who was injured during the buyout period. We are barely under the salary cap as it is.

We didn't give up substantial assets for Roy. I'm not in favour of giving up substantial assets for Cammalleri either(depending on your definition of substantial) Cammalleri is far from a cast off, and at his best he is absolutely a player I'd want as a part of our "core" as a legitimate goal scoring threat who can also make his linemates better.

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Old
11-20-2013, 11:48 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
We are in the same place as the Kings in terms of being a team solid in all aspects except putting the puck in the net.

There's not a single impact forward on this team that wasn't drafted/developed by us. At some point we have to look outside the organization to find enough scoring talent to make us competitive.

Apparently trading away picks has put us in "this situation", but if "this situation" means we have a very solid prospect pool, then I don't see the problem with trading a piece or two to fill a glaring hole. It's not like we trade major future pieces every year. We'll still have plenty of youth to avert whatever apocalypse people are afraid of.
We're not in the same place as as LA. Their core is younger. Ours is aging past their prime. I want to have a competitive team. I want to make the playoffs. But no matter what piece we add, we're not going to winnable Cup right now. I'd rather hold onto youth, retool while still being competitive and set ourselves up for years to come. Our prospect pool got better after this draft, but it's still bottom-third league wide.

The apocalypse I want to avoid is turning into the Calgary Flames.

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11-20-2013, 11:52 PM
  #179
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Cammy is a much different player than Roy. I'm not sure why they're being compared.

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Old
11-21-2013, 12:24 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossram View Post
We're not in the same place as as LA. Their core is younger. Ours is aging past their prime. I want to have a competitive team. I want to make the playoffs. But no matter what piece we add, we're not going to winnable Cup right now. I'd rather hold onto youth, retool while still being competitive and set ourselves up for years to come. Our prospect pool got better after this draft, but it's still bottom-third league wide.

The apocalypse I want to avoid is turning into the Calgary Flames.
I don't want to be a consistently mediocre team, just good enough to make the playoffs but lack the talent to go on any serious push. That our core is aging just makes it all the more imperative to make sure that we don't waste the time they have left as high end players.

We'll only get worse by doing nothing. Do you think anyone in our system will be able to replace the Sedins?

If we trade a 1st or equivalent prospect for Cammalleri, what exactly are we giving up? The odds are less than 50% that a player drafted outside the first half of the first round even becomes a productive NHLer, yet trading one away is the tipping point that will turn us into the Calgary Flames? The perspective on HF is ridiculous, with prospects and picks being way overvalued in terms of what they actually bring to the table.

I'm not saying we should trade all our futures and go all in, but to give up one piece which would be lucky to come even close to the calibre of player Cammalleri is now, to fill a glaring roster need, is absolutely worth our while, especially given we have enough prospect depth, not even considering whoever we end up drafting between now and when the Sedins' contracts are up in 5 years.

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11-21-2013, 02:08 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by bossram View Post
We're not in the same place as as LA. Their core is younger. Ours is aging past their prime. I want to have a competitive team. I want to make the playoffs. But no matter what piece we add, we're not going to winnable Cup right now. I'd rather hold onto youth, retool while still being competitive and set ourselves up for years to come. Our prospect pool got better after this draft, but it's still bottom-third league wide.

The apocalypse I want to avoid is turning into the Calgary Flames.
"No matter what piece we add, we're not going to win a cup right now".

I'm curious how you know that winning a cup is impossible. You want to avoid the Calgary Flames... but you're turning into the Edmonton Oilers. Let's just get all the good youth and worry about winning later...

You assemble the best team you can, year after year, and do everything you can, within reason and without sacrificing the future, to win each and every year. That's the only way you ever win in this league. So much has to go right in the playoffs to win the cup - health, bounces, avoiding/facing bad matchups, travel... You need to give yourself as many chances as you can. You can't just try and set yourself up for the future; not when you have two elite forwards who are still producing.

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Old
11-21-2013, 02:18 AM
  #182
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gillis has gone after cammalleri a coulpe times now and he does make a lot of sense in our top 6 id be willing to part with gaunce or schroeder + a pick to get him also with the cap rising we can afford to re sign him at something like 5x4

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11-21-2013, 02:21 AM
  #183
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If the Canucks are still a bubble team 6 weeks from now, we'll see.

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Old
11-21-2013, 02:24 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by brandon4679 View Post
gillis has gone after cammalleri a coulpe times now and he does make a lot of sense in our top 6 id be willing to part with gaunce or schroeder + a pick to get him also with the cap rising we can afford to re sign him at something like 5x4
Huge pass on Schroeder. At 23 years old, he's turning into bust material. Jensen, Gaunce and picks are all assets I would hope for in a deal. (not all three, obviously)

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11-21-2013, 03:00 AM
  #185
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Gaunce is the piece that I'd be most willing to part with due to organizational depth.

We have a need for scoring wingers on the roster which would make me more reluctant to move Jensen, and a 1st could be used on virtually anything.

However we have Henrik, Kesler, Santorelli, Schroeder, Dalpe, Welsh, Horvat, Cassels, Mallet as centre depth to be able to stand the loss of Gaunce, especially when you consider you only need half as many centres as you do wingers.

While if pressed I'd be willing to give up any one of those three, Gaunce is the one I would press for most to be the centrepiece.

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Old
11-21-2013, 03:23 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Land O Lakes View Post
Cammy is a much different player than Roy. I'm not sure why they're being compared.
They are both listed as five foot nine.

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Old
11-21-2013, 03:41 AM
  #187
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yay another smurf.

the canucks aren't a cammy away from turning into a contender.

If Gillis trades anything significant to CGY, it's going to slap him in the face in the future.

Just like Booth and Ballard.

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11-21-2013, 03:50 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Since1989 View Post
Huge pass on Schroeder. At 23 years old, he's turning into bust material. Jensen, Gaunce and picks are all assets I would hope for in a deal. (not all three, obviously)
Disagree. Schroeder can be a fourty-fifty point guy in the NHL....'s eastern conference. He hopefully won't get injured as much. He had like 0.3 ppg playing with plugs like sestito and weise last season at times lol.

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Old
11-21-2013, 03:51 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I don't want to be a consistently mediocre team, just good enough to make the playoffs but lack the talent to go on any serious push. That our core is aging just makes it all the more imperative to make sure that we don't waste the time they have left as high end players.

We'll only get worse by doing nothing. Do you think anyone in our system will be able to replace the Sedins?

If we trade a 1st or equivalent prospect for Cammalleri, what exactly are we giving up? The odds are less than 50% that a player drafted outside the first half of the first round even becomes a productive NHLer, yet trading one away is the tipping point that will turn us into the Calgary Flames? The perspective on HF is ridiculous, with prospects and picks being way overvalued in terms of what they actually bring to the table.

I'm not saying we should trade all our futures and go all in, but to give up one piece which would be lucky to come even close to the calibre of player Cammalleri is now, to fill a glaring roster need, is absolutely worth our while, especially given we have enough prospect depth, not even considering whoever we end up drafting between now and when the Sedins' contracts are up in 5 years.
Then he walks as an UFA and it's a complete waste of assets. And our prospect pool still isn't that great. Cammy doesn't make us a contender either IMO. I would be a fan of moving pieces for a youngish player who the team can control. I don't want to be throwing out 1st rounders for a guy will walk at the end of the year. Our prospect pool still isn't that great to throw valuable assets away.

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11-21-2013, 04:24 AM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossram View Post
Then he walks as an UFA and it's a complete waste of assets. And our prospect pool still isn't that great. Cammy doesn't make us a contender either IMO. I would be a fan of moving pieces for a youngish player who the team can control. I don't want to be throwing out 1st rounders for a guy will walk at the end of the year. Our prospect pool still isn't that great to throw valuable assets away.
Or he re-signs. Gillis was Cammalleri's former agent and Cammy expressed interest in Vancouver prior to signing with Montreal. He may walk, but there is no guarantees we couldn't keep him. I would rather take that risk than throw away a whole season when our core does not have many competitive years left.

In 2010, Montreal was a garbage team and managed to ousted arguably one of the most offensively dominate teams in the past two decades. Just last year Detroit, a team everyone claims is finished, almost bounced Chicago. We may not be a favorite anymore, but we can certainly make a run.

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11-21-2013, 05:39 AM
  #191
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Or he re-signs. Gillis was Cammalleri's former agent and Cammy expressed interest in Vancouver prior to signing with Montreal. He may walk, but there is no guarantees we couldn't keep him. I would rather take that risk than throw away a whole season when our core does not have many competitive years left.

In 2010, Montreal was a garbage team and managed to ousted arguably one of the most offensively dominate teams in the past two decades. Just last year Detroit, a team everyone claims is finished, almost bounced Chicago. We may not be a favorite anymore, but we can certainly make a run.

Gillis was Cammalleri's former agent, yet Cammy signed in MTL when he could have signed in VAN. My guess is money was the cause. Money again could be the cause as FA looms for Cammalleri. The cap is also going up so teams will have money to spend.

There's no way I give up a 1st for a rental. VAN, to this point, had never done it. Gilman's remark on the Roy trade was telling in that he does not want a similar situation to that happening again. Do you think it happens again with Cammy? High picks/prospects for a rental? Doubtful.

Lastly, interesting to hear that speculation on CGY's broadcast cited Cammy's interest to return east to be closer to home. I think that should impact armchair discussions somewhat.

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11-21-2013, 05:48 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
"No matter what piece we add, we're not going to win a cup right now".

I'm curious how you know that winning a cup is impossible. You want to avoid the Calgary Flames... but you're turning into the Edmonton Oilers. Let's just get all the good youth and worry about winning later...

You assemble the best team you can, year after year, and do everything you can, within reason and without sacrificing the future, to win each and every year. That's the only way you ever win in this league. So much has to go right in the playoffs to win the cup - health, bounces, avoiding/facing bad matchups, travel... You need to give yourself as many chances as you can. You can't just try and set yourself up for the future; not when you have two elite forwards who are still producing.

I agree with increasing the frequency of opportunities to win the cup. But "within reason and without sacrificing the future" is what this debate is all about. Some view the pipeline as strong enough to make a move like this, others don't.

Personally, I don't think VAN's pipeline of talent is strong enough to give up 1sts for rentals. A team like CHI or ANA could more readily do so as they have stockpiled talent. VAN isn't like that. Now, this is very difficult to argue with someone who doesn't value prospects or 1st rounders much at all. The extreme side of going all in every year. But to the conservative side that better recognizes VAN's pool for what it is, paying a high price for a rental makes no sense. Two elite forwards or not.

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11-21-2013, 06:33 AM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Gillis was Cammalleri's former agent, yet Cammy signed in MTL when he could have signed in VAN. My guess is money was the cause. Money again could be the cause as FA looms for Cammalleri. The cap is also going up so teams will have money to spend.

There's no way I give up a 1st for a rental. VAN, to this point, had never done it. Gilman's remark on the Roy trade was telling in that he does not want a similar situation to that happening again. Do you think it happens again with Cammy? High picks/prospects for a rental? Doubtful.

Lastly, interesting to hear that speculation on CGY's broadcast cited Cammy's interest to return east to be closer to home. I think that should impact armchair discussions somewhat.
It was money. Montreal came back with Cammalleri's current contract and the rest i history. Of course, that was four years ago. He could well be focusing on a cup or settling for term rather than banking on a payday. He also does not have recent 30-40 goal seasons to entice those dollar figures.

Depends on their assessment of why Roy failed. Was it the player, the coach or simply a poor trade? Either of the former could simply mean if they are going to pay, they will seek a more proven player. Do I believe it happens? No. But I also view that course a mistake because this team can compete. We're simply wasting a year by not doing anything, imo.

Considering just a few days ago they were speculating Vancouver would be a good destination. I do not put much salt in anything being said. They are speculating as much as we are.

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Old
11-21-2013, 07:55 AM
  #194
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If true it'd be a good pickup for a Vancouver team that needs secondary scoring in the worst possible way.

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