HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Simon Despres

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-21-2013, 12:56 PM
  #126
vabm8
Injured Reserve
 
vabm8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dan's Gladams Shrine
Posts: 10,902
vCash: 500
I'm for re-signing Martin too. He'll probably age well and he's someone that I think would be a good veteran leader type. He's also stupidly important to this team right now and I can't see that changing in near future.

Scuderi, he probably won't decline horribly and by the end he'll be good for rookie defensemen to be put with and learn from. I doubt Shero trades him, if Shero is still here. Martin and Scuderi would both be good for guys that are still learning a lot.

The key here is letting Orpik go, it has to be done.

vabm8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:00 PM
  #127
BlindWillyMcHurt
Registered User
 
BlindWillyMcHurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Maatta already plays like a veteran. Just sayin'.
I don't disagree. But Martin can be a major boon to other young players who will hopefully start steadily trickling in over the years. Maatta is just... different. You don't see too many players his age play at this level the way he is. It's almost spooky.

BlindWillyMcHurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:00 PM
  #128
Aiastelmon
Registered User
 
Aiastelmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I don't know about that. Even our coach isn't able to keep Olli Maatta down. Maatta is going to be special, imo.




Yeah that's the thing for me. Letang needs to step up. If he can truly become a No. 1 defender in all avenues, the need for Martin lessens greatly.

For me, I'm not re-signing any of the veteran D-men because we have the depth to replace each one of them: Niskanen, Orpik, Martin AND Scuderi eventually.
I disagree with this. We can replace any of them after their current contracts expire except Martin. Even in a perfect world, we can't be going into 2015 with 36 year old Scuderi and Letang as our #1 and shutdown pairing. We are then one injury away from:

Scuderi/Depres
Maatta/Bortuzzo
Dumoulin/Harrington
Pouliot

That is simply too little experience on the blue line.

But if you look at it like this:

Martin/Maatta
Scuderi/Letang
Depres/Bortuzzo
Harrington

We are stacked. We'll have great trade chips if we need them, and we will not have traded any assets to acquire Martin other than cap space, which should be friendlier over time to us as the cap goes up, and our fixed cost big contracts do not.

As someone said in another post, Martin will be a perfect partner to allow Maatta to jump into the offense. I am hoping to see that pairing next year, and for a few years to come.

Aiastelmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:06 PM
  #129
Aiastelmon
Registered User
 
Aiastelmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BumFortyOne View Post
If Martin leaves, I figure that Harrington should be ready to take on a similar role by then. Leaving the D looking like:

Scuderi-Letang
Maatta-Harrington
Despres/Dumoulin-Bortuzzo/Ruopp

Which should be spectacular. Now, partially based on your input and seeing him play in the WJCs I have high hopes for Harrington and it seems to me that he's got a Martin-like upside though obviously he probably won't be that good as a rookie.

Another thing is that I don't think Shero likes to trade guys that came here as free agents. It sounds stupid, but I bet players like knowing that after they sign a contract here they aren't going to get traded somewhere halfway through. So I doubt we see Scuderi traded. And he can always move down the lineup and mentor some of the younger guys breaking into the league, say Pouliot down the road, if Despres/Dumoulin/Harrington/Maatta prove to be capable of taking the spot next to Letang.
Harrington will be 22 years old during the 2015 season. He cannot step in for Martin then. I love the kid too, but he should come in on the bottom pairing with a Bort or a Depres, and play a shutdown roll against 2nd lines at a very best case.

Aiastelmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:07 PM
  #130
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
**** You, Duthie
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 42,922
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Yes and no. I think in the immediate future (this year and next year, and possibly even in year 3), Scuderi will provide: a solid partner for Letang; a veteran presence (especially if we lose both Orpik and/or Nisky and/or Engelland (which is very possible, if not probable); and hedges against the issue of having both of those 3 guys walk and having to dress 4 youngsters.


But by the time we hit year 3 of his contract, or even in the final year, we have the option of trading Rob Scuderi. Signing a UFA only to trade them later is what I call "buying draft picks". You use them for that season or two or three, and then you flip them and get assets you wouldn't otherwise be able to acquire. You usually see this more often with "bubble" teams or rebuilding teams, but we could be in that boat because we're in the unique position of having tremendous depth at defense, but not wanting to rush the young guys just yet, so I think it's applicable in our case.


I think Harrington will be more than ready by year 3 of his & Scuderi's contract to step in and take that spot. We'll already have Maatta there and can't envision at least one of Despres/Dumoulin also being there in that 3rd left-Dman spot, which leaves Scuderi expendible in my eyes. That said, and if he maintains his level of play, I would VERY much like to extend Paul Martin, so he gives us that veteran presence and takes up 2 of the right-side spots along with Letang, and the last spot should be occupied by Bortuzzo full-time at that point. Samelsson should make a fine 7th Dman starting next year if we don't trade him first.

And as I've mentioned in several previous posts, I don't love Maatta and Letang together because I want Maatta to have more free reign. Keep him with Scuderi until one of Harrington/Dumoulin/Despres is ready to play along side of him full time.




No way: we'll be in a cap crunch if we do that next year, whereas we will have extra time to see where the cap goes and try to extend Martin for the following year. Martin >>>Orpik, so that should be a no-brainer, IMO.
One of our defense prospects could very well take over for Scuderi at some point later on in his contract, I was talking more about next year. I don't have any problem with Maatta/Letang. Lots of successful pairings have that dynamic.

As for Orpik, I hope you're right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiastelmon View Post
A lot of the future hinges on Paul Martin. He's clearly our best defender. Can the organization let him walk? I would say no, especially after Shero's experience letting Scuderi walk. Martin is 32 now, and will be 34 by the time any new deal would kick in, but his game is not physical, and his smarts and good stick should allow him to be at least a solid second pairing guy until the end of a potential next contract. So I can see the Pens offering him a 4 year deal at his current cap hit, or longer for a bit of a discount.

Then our younger guys can compete with the vets for the foreseeable future, and Scuderi and Martin can drift down the depth chart during the latter parts of their contracts, or just be traded as our young D come up for their bigger contracts.
We'll see. Martin's indispensable now, but a lot can change in two years.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:12 PM
  #131
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
We'll see. Martin's indispensable now, but a lot can change in two years.
Precisely. I'm not talking about present-day Paul Martin because we don't have to make any decision on him right now. And we don't even have to make a decision on him this summer. In fact, the last thing we should do this summer is re-sign Martin after July 1 (when first eligible to re-sign). There's no rush here.

We have at LEAST four prospects currently playing in the AHL, and another highly touted junior coming. Plus Letang and Maatta. Plus Robert Bortuzzo (yes it's easy to forget him but until he gets Strait'd out of the organization I view him as an asset and a good solid third-pairing guy).

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:18 PM
  #132
Aiastelmon
Registered User
 
Aiastelmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
One of our defense prospects could very well take over for Scuderi at some point later on in his contract, I was talking more about next year. I don't have any problem with Maatta/Letang. Lots of successful pairings have that dynamic.

As for Orpik, I hope you're right.



We'll see. Martin's indispensable now, but a lot can change in two years.
I agree, but the decision won't be made in two years, it will most likely be made next spring. Shero is not going to let Rob Scuderi part deux slip through his fingers. It's human nature, and it's also a calculated risk. Looking at Martin's career as a durable, top pairing shut down guy for 10 years (aside from when Billy G. busted his arm with a shot), it looks like a safe bet.

A safer bet than planning on 21 year olds developing into Paul Martin within a year, at least.

Aiastelmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:20 PM
  #133
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiastelmon View Post
I agree, but the decision won't be made in two years, it will most likely be made next spring. Shero is not going to let Paul Scuderi part deux slip through his fingers. It's human nature, and it's also a calculated risk. Looking at Martin's career as a durable, top pairing shut down guy for 10 years (aside from when Billy G. busted his arm with a shot), it looks like a safe bet.
We're in the driver's seat in negotiations with Martin (or any veteran D-man). There's no need to rush into anything.

If our stupid coach would actually trust our young players, we'd be in the driver's seat with virtually all negotiations!

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:24 PM
  #134
Aiastelmon
Registered User
 
Aiastelmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
We're in the driver's seat in negotiations with Martin (or any veteran). There's no need to rush into anything.

If our stupid coach would actually trust our young players, we'd be in the driver's seat with virtually all negotiations!
Brah, I agree. I am hoping we can have a friendly, Kunitz-esque low key negotiation with Martin after this year, and sign him to a friendly deal.

Aiastelmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:25 PM
  #135
mpp9
Registered User
 
mpp9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 17,876
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
We're in the driver's seat in negotiations with Martin (or any veteran D-man). There's no need to rush into anything.

If our stupid coach would actually trust our young players, we'd be in the driver's seat with virtually all negotiations!
Yeah I wouldn't be negotiating until next season at the earliest. Shero has to see what he has in Maatta the NHL level. If he's ready for top 4 duty next year. And what the plans are for Simon.

I just don't see three of Maatta, Despres, Harrington, Dumoulin and Pouliot being on the roster at the same time for another 2-3 years. That'd take a change in philosophy on this organization's part.

mpp9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:27 PM
  #136
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Yeah I wouldn't be negotiating until next season at the earliest. Shero has to see what he has in Maatta the NHL level. If he's ready for top 4 duty next year. And what the plans are for Simon.

I just don't see three of Maatta, Despres, Harrington, Dumoulin and Pouliot being on the roster at the same time for another 2-3 years. That'd take a change in philosophy on this organization's part.
Well if we don't win it all this spring, I'd like to think there will start to be pressure mounting for AT LEAST philosophical changes, if not an outright bloodletting.

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:28 PM
  #137
Aiastelmon
Registered User
 
Aiastelmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Yeah I wouldn't be negotiating until next season at the earliest. Shero has to see what he has in Maatta the NHL level. If he's ready for top 4 duty next year. And what the plans are for Simon.

I just don't see three of Maatta, Despres, Harrington, Dumoulin and Pouliot being on the roster at the same time for another 2-3 years. That'd take a change in philosophy on this organization's part.
Well, they better get comfortable with it, because it's going to happen at the start of 2015

If we didn't have Maatta on the big team now, I'd agree. If he or Depres aren't in the top 4 by 2015, then we're doing it wrong.

Aiastelmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:32 PM
  #138
mpp9
Registered User
 
mpp9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 17,876
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiastelmon View Post
Well, they better get comfortable with it, because it's going to happen at the start of 2015

If we didn't have Maatta on the big team now, I'd agree. If he or Depres aren't in the top 4 by 2015, then we're doing it wrong.
Despres is a situation that's tough to get a read on. Was he being showcased in the past? Is he now being groomed to be a shutdown guy for us in WBS?

It sure would be nice if those two were in our top 6 next year though.

mpp9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:38 PM
  #139
WVP
Registered User
 
WVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 13,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
After a rough start on the team... Martin seems like the kind of player you'd love to keep around and transition into a veteran leadership role on the blueline. Scuderi is great there, too... but Martin is younger and possesses an overall skillset Scuderi does not... all while retaining the vast majority of Scuderi's defensive acumen. Also... Martin closely resembling what we wish many of our young defensemen eventually panning out to be isn't a bad thing, at all. It makes sense to have Martin help them along the way.
Agreed. And I'd like to have all 3 of Letang, Martin and Scuderi here for the duration of Scuds' contract. Then complement with Maatta, Despres, Bortuzzo and eventually the other young defensemen.

It really is crazy how stacked our D is.

WVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:47 PM
  #140
BlindWillyMcHurt
Registered User
 
BlindWillyMcHurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,308
vCash: 500
Yeah, it really is. I might have my differences with their drafting and development philosophy... but big credit to the scouting department and Ray Shero for pulling a glut of very, very promising blueliners out of the draft (and trades) the last few years.

Now it's time for them to sack up and take advantage of that.

BlindWillyMcHurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:53 PM
  #141
WVP
Registered User
 
WVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 13,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
Yeah, it really is. I might have my differences with their drafting and development philosophy... but big credit to the scouting department and Ray Shero for pulling a glut of very, very promising blueliners out of the draft (and trades) the last few years.

Now it's time for them to sack up and take advantage of that.
And we can trade one of the D prospects for top 9 help/futures without blinking an eye. And still be stacked. Gotta figure it will happen at some point.

WVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:55 PM
  #142
BlindWillyMcHurt
Registered User
 
BlindWillyMcHurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,308
vCash: 500
See... that I don't necessarily agree with. Maatta you could... because he's proven something. Despres... eh... maybe. They all need to play first before they have real trade value.

BlindWillyMcHurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 02:21 PM
  #143
WVP
Registered User
 
WVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 13,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
See... that I don't necessarily agree with. Maatta you could... because he's proven something. Despres... eh... maybe. They all need to play first before they have real trade value.
Was thinking more like young player for young player. Despres, Pouliot, Harrington, Dumo...maybe a 1 for 1 or possibly packaged with a pick.

Not saying I want any of those guys traded but you gotta leverage your strengths.

WVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 02:30 PM
  #144
Aiastelmon
Registered User
 
Aiastelmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,042
vCash: 500
We'll either have to trade one or two of them, or else keep them in the minors longer than would be wise to allow for their proper development. As soon as they hit the A, they begin accruing years of professional service towards their UFA, just the same as in the NHL. They just won't get big contracts.

Poor Simon is making 67k a year right now at WBS rather than his 840k NHL salary. If that's not a motivator, I don't know what is.

Aiastelmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 02:57 PM
  #145
WVP
Registered User
 
WVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 13,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiastelmon View Post
Poor Simon is making 67k a year right now at WBS rather than his 840k NHL salary. If that's not a motivator, I don't know what is.
While I won't second the "poor Simon" part I've thought of that many times before. The difference in pay is staggering, so it does have to be a huge motivator for the bubble guys. A 5M salary divided by 26 paychecks = 192,307 each pay check before taxes...

WVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 03:09 PM
  #146
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,500
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vabm8 View Post
I'm for re-signing Martin too. He'll probably age well and he's someone that I think would be a good veteran leader type. He's also stupidly important to this team right now and I can't see that changing in near future.

Scuderi, he probably won't decline horribly and by the end he'll be good for rookie defensemen to be put with and learn from. I doubt Shero trades him, if Shero is still here. Martin and Scuderi would both be good for guys that are still learning a lot.

The key here is letting Orpik go, it has to be done.
Absolutely. The worst thing that happens in that event and with Martin resigned is that in 4 years maybe you consider moving one of Letang or Martin.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 03:12 PM
  #147
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,500
vCash: 500
Two things:

1. What's going on with Borts? Scratched legitimately or hurt, because I can't imagine any coach (except maybe one) willingly playing Engo over Borts this much.

2. If Despres isn't up starting over Engo, when you've got the reunion of the Nisky-Engo TB playoffs nightmare out there, then it's hard NOT to think that they've given up on him.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 03:23 PM
  #148
cygnus47
Registered User
 
cygnus47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,698
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Two things:

1. What's going on with Borts? Scratched legitimately or hurt, because I can't imagine any coach (except maybe one) willingly playing Engo over Borts this much.

2. If Despres isn't up starting over Engo, when you've got the reunion of the Nisky-Engo TB playoffs nightmare out there, then it's hard NOT to think that they've given up on him.
1. No idea. If our coach was anyone else I'd say injured.

2. It annoys me, but its better than having him in rotation again.

cygnus47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 03:57 PM
  #149
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,500
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cygnus47 View Post
1. No idea. If our coach was anyone else I'd say injured.

2. It annoys me, but its better than having him in rotation again.
Really strange situation with Borts. There's just nothing out there. No comment about how he needs to play better. Nothing about him being hurt. Just total silence. Does anyone know?

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 05:01 PM
  #150
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 15,975
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WVP View Post
And we can trade one of the D prospects for top 9 help/futures without blinking an eye. And still be stacked. Gotta figure it will happen at some point.
It happened already. We moved one of our top 3 D prospects for a old broken 4th liner who Shero didn't attempt to re-sign.

Everyone likes to tell themselves that every PMD can be traded for a 30 goal scorer but the truth is that w/o PT they aren't worth much. And we have a coach who refuses to give them that PT and a GM who will ****ing sign Earon to play over them.

Ragamuffin Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.