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Subban behind Boyle and Letang for Team Canada

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Old
11-17-2013, 05:20 PM
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
To multi-quote, click the 'multi' button once under each post you'd like to quote, then scroll down and hit reply at the bottom of the page. That's how I do it, anyway.

It seems you are adjusting subban's projected mistakes and chances and only accounting for the increase in competition, without adjusting for the increase in quality of linemates. It's break even at very best. And it's team canada, so the difference between his current linemates vs new linemates would be greater than the difference in competition. If anything, Subban would be more effective relative to his team on team canada than on the habs.
That is a good discussion point, and I did consider it. I just try to keep my posts short because otherwise they seem to get ignored (or maybe there are other reasons, whatever).

But to the point: it's the type of error. Unforced errors, needlessly risky plays that create a clear chance for the other team when they go awry, arguably have nothing to do with linemates. It's the decision to deke a guy at centre ice or flip a little backhand pass through the middle that's the problem, and having Crosby on the ice at the same time doesn't really make it better or worse.

Now, where it may be relevant is if we argue that Subban's facepalm errors are because he's trying to do too much. He's exposing himself because he's that committed to doing anything possible to win a game. And if he had a Crosby on the ice with him, well, he wouldn't force plays. He would bring the steadiness you want in that type of tournament and also measured flair, where it can't hurt the team at a critical time.

Maybe that's the case. He was that guy at the WJC. Believe in that part of Subban's game, and he should be there -- what's the downside? But from what I've watched of him, I see an extremely talented athlete who gets caught too often, which makes me (pretending to be Team Canada) nervous about bringing him to play best on best in a short tournament where one mistake at the wrong time can be far more important than in any one game in an 82 game regular season.

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11-17-2013, 07:10 PM
  #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Souffle View Post
That is a good discussion point, and I did consider it. I just try to keep my posts short because otherwise they seem to get ignored (or maybe there are other reasons, whatever).

But to the point: it's the type of error. Unforced errors, needlessly risky plays that create a clear chance for the other team when they go awry, arguably have nothing to do with linemates. It's the decision to deke a guy at centre ice or flip a little backhand pass through the middle that's the problem, and having Crosby on the ice at the same time doesn't really make it better or worse.

Now, where it may be relevant is if we argue that Subban's facepalm errors are because he's trying to do too much. He's exposing himself because he's that committed to doing anything possible to win a game. And if he had a Crosby on the ice with him, well, he wouldn't force plays. He would bring the steadiness you want in that type of tournament and also measured flair, where it can't hurt the team at a critical time.

Maybe that's the case. He was that guy at the WJC. Believe in that part of Subban's game, and he should be there -- what's the downside? But from what I've watched of him, I see an extremely talented athlete who gets caught too often, which makes me (pretending to be Team Canada) nervous about bringing him to play best on best in a short tournament where one mistake at the wrong time can be far more important than in any one game in an 82 game regular season.
The man has the talent to star for team Canada. Don't compare the calibre of the team he plays for with the talent he would be surrounded with on Canada. Better players means fewer risks and more opportunities. I don't fault him for trying to do the best he can even if he gets caught sometimes. Better he tries and gets burned than playing safe and doesn't give a flying fadoo.

Not sure why so many people here bash PK. This guy will be the face of the franchise for years to come and is a fierce competitor. I want to see him thrive in these situations. Gives him the experience he needs to come back to the Habs and be a role model.

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11-18-2013, 04:41 PM
  #603
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Soooo the Norris trophy winning d-man is questioned to make team Canada, what a joke. The player voted to be the best d-man in the entire league should be a lock to represent his country, plus Letang is just as high risk as Subban and desperately needs a hair cut. I watched him play junior with Val D'or and he is a stud, but he's no better than Subban.

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11-20-2013, 06:45 PM
  #604
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According to the Leafs board, he's also behind Phaneuf.

Apparently PK gets sheltered minutes and can't play defense. Mmmmhmmmmm

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11-20-2013, 07:30 PM
  #605
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Aaron Ward and Martin Biron just said on TSN no to PK on team Canada because he's too "risky". Mike Johnson said yes he should make it.

So by using Ward's and Biron's logic Erik Karlsson shouldn't make team Sweden either because he also takes risks right?

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11-20-2013, 07:34 PM
  #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
Aaron Ward and Martin Biron just said on TSN no to PK on team Canada because he's too "risky". Mike Johnson said yes he should make it.

So by using Ward's and Biron's logic Erik Karlsson shouldn't make team Sweden either because he also takes risks right?
It makes me wonder if they know anything about the guy really..
Yes, he takes risks, like all other offensive Dman. Even if you want to make it seem like he's the riskiest player in the NHL, they talk about him as if he often gets caught and they completely disregard his defensive abilities.

It just makes no sense.

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11-20-2013, 07:44 PM
  #607
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I think an interesting question is:

If PK Subban were a member of the Tampa Bay Lightning, would he make Team Canada?

Steve Yzerman is one of the hockey people with the most integrity around, but I believe that if PK were on his NHL team, he would be a no doubter on Team Canada. PK is too good and too dangerous to not be on the team. The "risky" labels are outdated and when he does take risks, he is able to recover from them 95% of the time because of his skating ability.

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11-20-2013, 07:45 PM
  #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It makes me wonder if they know anything about the guy really..
Yes, he takes risks, like all other offensive Dman. Even if you want to make it seem like he's the riskiest player in the NHL, they talk about him as if he often gets caught and they completely disregard his defensive abilities.

It just makes no sense.
Repeat a lie enough and people will believe it.

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11-20-2013, 08:03 PM
  #609
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I know it's irrelevant but I'd be curious to know what Ward, Biron, and Johnson's answers would be if they were asked if Karlsson was a Canadian would he make team Canada.

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11-20-2013, 08:19 PM
  #610
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So their only argument is that he's 'risky' lol? What does that even mean...

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11-20-2013, 08:50 PM
  #611
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Yes, Subban plays a "risky" style, risky in the sense that if he does not play this "risky" style the team will struggle to score more than a goal per game. If Subban is asked to play a more defensive role, he will play that role every bit as good. Right now, Montreal cannot afford to let Subban play a "safer" game because we need him to continuously push the pace, and let's be honest, it works because Subban is beastly.

If you want Subban off the team, then fine, keep him off, but do NOT keep him off at the expense of Kris Letang. If that is the case, then I will blow a gasket.

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11-20-2013, 08:52 PM
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StellerEller View Post
Repeat a lie enough and people will believe it.
This can't be said enough.

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Old
11-20-2013, 09:17 PM
  #613
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I don't see the huge "risk" on PK for Team Canada. He will probably get bottom pairing minutes along with a good amount of PP time. If you are worried that he won't do well against top lines then just play Kieth or Weber and let PK on the ice against 4th lines

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11-20-2013, 09:39 PM
  #614
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You guys get all worked up about this, yet everybody and its mother around Team Canada's clique have been saying this since last summer, EVEN AFTER PK WON THE NORRIS. Why are you all up in arms? He won't make the team because they don't believe PK can be a serviceable 7-8th dman. And for them the top 5 is glued: Weber, the two Chicago dudes, Doughty, Pietrangelo, adding up Marc Staal for the top 6. Yes, PK, in OUR EYES, may be stronger than at least 3 of those guys, certainly better than Marc freaking Staal, but Team Canada has always been an organisation that picked players according to needs AND mostly roles. Not talent. Rob Zamuner, Shayne Corson, Brendan Morrow anyone! The clique doesn't think PK is responsible enough to endure playing limited minutes in a limited role, while being 'under control' emotionally. I might add that this season has not proven them wrong too much.

That's how Hockey Canada thinks. It's always been that way. I remember when the junior team REFUSED to have Mario Lemieux (who?) on its roster because he was a defensive liability (hello Dave King, amonst others). They systematically refused to take Q players over the years because they believed they were too 'risky' defensively. One dimensional players, they said. Watch them not take Mantha this time around for that matter. Rather take some good ol' boy from the West who can skate like the wind, hit like a truck, but carry the puck like an elephant. Because Hockey Canada believes they accept roles better. Subban is a victim of this conservative attitude. A conservative attitude that is still prevailing West of the Toronto and a conservative attitude that will eventually put Canada in a Swedish-like hockey recession. Watch the US become THE dominant power in hockey for ages. Because they rely on talent and speed. We still rely on playing the 'Canadian way'. And on the bigger ice surface, I suspect that Canada won't even finish in the top 3. Because of the Rob Zamuner syndrome that is still plaguing this Calgary-based organisation.

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11-20-2013, 09:45 PM
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
Aaron Ward and Martin Biron just said on TSN no to PK on team Canada because he's too "risky". Mike Johnson said yes he should make it.

So by using Ward's and Biron's logic Erik Karlsson shouldn't make team Sweden either because he also takes risks right?
Two barely capable hockey players giving their opinions, trying to stir up controversy, rather than present an argument with any real substance. Both are there to rile up the masses, make silly little jokes on how bad their careers were, nothing more.

TSN should really grow a pair of balls and bring back some hockey IQ back to the panel. I like watching someone like Paul Maurice cringe when Bob McKenzie gives his 'expert' analysis on the ins and outs of a hockey game etc.

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11-20-2013, 09:57 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
So their only argument is that he's 'risky' lol? What does that even mean...
That's the funniest part really..It doesn't mean anything. It's when you have no arguments, you say these dumb things.

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11-21-2013, 12:02 PM
  #617
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Subban a risky option lol...I bet they'd be confident with Letang back there though, huh?

Subban's, arguably, the best Canadian defenseman. He should be on that team.

Biron and Ward are idiots and using the 'risky' thing as their only argument. McLennan got it right...he's one of the best defenseman and putting him on that team is a must. I didn't agree with him on his analysis of his defensive play, but he was right for the most part.

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11-21-2013, 12:05 PM
  #618
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Subban will be part of team Canada unless he gets injured. His production is in not going to go down and it might go up. That's sufficient to get him a spot and add a couple good hits that makes the highlights and everyone will see that he's much better than Karlsson in that department.

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11-21-2013, 12:22 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
You guys get all worked up about this, yet everybody and its mother around Team Canada's clique have been saying this since last summer, EVEN AFTER PK WON THE NORRIS. Why are you all up in arms? He won't make the team because they don't believe PK can be a serviceable 7-8th dman. And for them the top 5 is glued: Weber, the two Chicago dudes, Doughty, Pietrangelo, adding up Marc Staal for the top 6. Yes, PK, in OUR EYES, may be stronger than at least 3 of those guys, certainly better than Marc freaking Staal, but Team Canada has always been an organisation that picked players according to needs AND mostly roles. Not talent. Rob Zamuner, Shayne Corson, Brendan Morrow anyone! The clique doesn't think PK is responsible enough to endure playing limited minutes in a limited role, while being 'under control' emotionally. I might add that this season has not proven them wrong too much.

That's how Hockey Canada thinks. It's always been that way. I remember when the junior team REFUSED to have Mario Lemieux (who?) on its roster because he was a defensive liability (hello Dave King, amonst others). They systematically refused to take Q players over the years because they believed they were too 'risky' defensively. One dimensional players, they said. Watch them not take Mantha this time around for that matter. Rather take some good ol' boy from the West who can skate like the wind, hit like a truck, but carry the puck like an elephant. Because Hockey Canada believes they accept roles better. Subban is a victim of this conservative attitude. A conservative attitude that is still prevailing West of the Toronto and a conservative attitude that will eventually put Canada in a Swedish-like hockey recession. Watch the US become THE dominant power in hockey for ages. Because they rely on talent and speed. We still rely on playing the 'Canadian way'. And on the bigger ice surface, I suspect that Canada won't even finish in the top 3. Because of the Rob Zamuner syndrome that is still plaguing this Calgary-based organisation.
Love this post

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11-21-2013, 12:26 PM
  #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
You guys get all worked up about this, yet everybody and its mother around Team Canada's clique have been saying this since last summer, EVEN AFTER PK WON THE NORRIS. Why are you all up in arms? He won't make the team because they don't believe PK can be a serviceable 7-8th dman. And for them the top 5 is glued: Weber, the two Chicago dudes, Doughty, Pietrangelo, adding up Marc Staal for the top 6. Yes, PK, in OUR EYES, may be stronger than at least 3 of those guys, certainly better than Marc freaking Staal, but Team Canada has always been an organisation that picked players according to needs AND mostly roles. Not talent. Rob Zamuner, Shayne Corson, Brendan Morrow anyone! The clique doesn't think PK is responsible enough to endure playing limited minutes in a limited role, while being 'under control' emotionally. I might add that this season has not proven them wrong too much.

That's how Hockey Canada thinks. It's always been that way. I remember when the junior team REFUSED to have Mario Lemieux (who?) on its roster because he was a defensive liability (hello Dave King, amonst others). They systematically refused to take Q players over the years because they believed they were too 'risky' defensively. One dimensional players, they said. Watch them not take Mantha this time around for that matter. Rather take some good ol' boy from the West who can skate like the wind, hit like a truck, but carry the puck like an elephant. Because Hockey Canada believes they accept roles better. Subban is a victim of this conservative attitude. A conservative attitude that is still prevailing West of the Toronto and a conservative attitude that will eventually put Canada in a Swedish-like hockey recession. Watch the US become THE dominant power in hockey for ages. Because they rely on talent and speed. We still rely on playing the 'Canadian way'. And on the bigger ice surface, I suspect that Canada won't even finish in the top 3. Because of the Rob Zamuner syndrome that is still plaguing this Calgary-based organisation.
Actually, last time around they changed that mindset. Gretzky went with the old boys club and we got smoked so Yzerman came in with a new attitude.

I seriously hope he remembers the lessons of 2006.

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Old
11-21-2013, 12:37 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
I heard a Dregger quote earlier on Melnyk...

"Well, Subban has improved a little bit, and if he keeps improving he may get a shot, but for now he's on the outside"

The words in italic were heavily emphasized with his typical troll voice. There's no way someone from the executive team told him that Subban's game has been improving. What, he plays over 25 minutes a couple games and all of a sudden he's a better player?

He must be getting such a laugh out of this, ****ing tool.
What is the metric used to assert that there was in fact, a small improvement?

Perhaps he meant that there would be a more significant improvement if Subban were, say, a Maple Leaf.

The "troll voice" comment is a classic.

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11-21-2013, 12:39 PM
  #622
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We all saw what pk subban did a the world championship versus sweden..he was the best player on both side...started slow in the first period but after that..the guys was a freaking beast..sadly only played 1 game..Also do not forget when the expectation are high pk always play is best hockey (playoffs , world juniors,etc) i know every country wish that pk do not make the cut..cuz they know , hes a freaking offensive juggernaut

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11-21-2013, 02:10 PM
  #623
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Team Canada is so conservative

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11-21-2013, 02:22 PM
  #624
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So, if PK doesn't get selected for Team Canada, do we expect him to go absolute ****ing beast mode for the rest of the season? I wouldn't hate it.

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11-21-2013, 03:00 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by CPrice 31 View Post
So, if PK doesn't get selected for Team Canada, do we expect him to go absolute ****ing beast mode for the rest of the season? I wouldn't hate it.
Not only the rest of the season.. He'll go on to win every Norris trophy right up til the next Olympics and when team Canada comes calling he'll tell them to piss off..

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