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How responsible are refs for controlling games?

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Old
11-21-2013, 11:21 AM
  #1
ccarrigan
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How responsible are refs for controlling games?

Playing last night against a highly penalized team. Lots of the smaller things aren't getting called (slashes, boarding, trips) which leads to a couple of scuffles late. As it continues the games goes to 8 minors, 3 majors, 2 fights and 3 ejections. Kid got hit and snapped his wrist.

A lot of us felt that if the smaller things were called like they should be, there wouldn't have been as much escalation, ESPECIALLY after the first fight. Thoughts?

(Adult hockey league, B level, non contact.)

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11-21-2013, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ccarrigan View Post
Playing last night against a highly penalized team. Lots of the smaller things aren't getting called (slashes, boarding, trips) which leads to a couple of scuffles late. As it continues the games goes to 8 minors, 3 majors, 2 fights and 3 ejections. Kid got hit and snapped his wrist.

A lot of us felt that if the smaller things were called like they should be, there wouldn't have been as much escalation, ESPECIALLY after the first fight. Thoughts?

(Adult hockey league, B level, non contact.)
It's a double edged sword in my opinion,

From what you are describing, it's very possible, that if more was called, that would have curtailed it, on the other spectrum, it's possible that it wouldn't.

I've seen it fall both ways.

As far as "controlling" the game, to me, that is ALWAYS up to the players, the players decide if they want to hook, slash, whack, etc, is it up to the official to call that, YES, absolutely.

Do you want them to call every penalty, no, of course not, so there is a fine line there.

I had a play last night, where I called a penalty, but absolutely saw the team's point of view, the guy was following a guy full speed, angled into the boards, the guy pulled up quickly and the guy nailed him, completely accidental, and I called it, his reasoning was, how could he know, what else could he have done, my response, probably nothing, but it was a RECKLESS play, and those are called. In adult rec league, there is absolutely no reason on earth, to be going 80 in a 30, INTO the boards, all sorts of nasty things can happen, toe pick yourself, get tripped, forget to stop, etc, all leads to injuries, in this case, the guy that he was chasing stopped up short and turned INTO him, if he had turned the other way, hit from behind, into the boards, 2-3 feet away,

Like I said though, it's a fine line, and it's up to the players to control themselves.

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11-21-2013, 12:06 PM
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ccarrigan
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Originally Posted by CABearshockey View Post
It's a double edged sword in my opinion,

From what you are describing, it's very possible, that if more was called, that would have curtailed it, on the other spectrum, it's possible that it wouldn't.

I've seen it fall both ways.

As far as "controlling" the game, to me, that is ALWAYS up to the players, the players decide if they want to hook, slash, whack, etc, is it up to the official to call that, YES, absolutely.

Do you want them to call every penalty, no, of course not, so there is a fine line there.

I had a play last night, where I called a penalty, but absolutely saw the team's point of view, the guy was following a guy full speed, angled into the boards, the guy pulled up quickly and the guy nailed him, completely accidental, and I called it, his reasoning was, how could he know, what else could he have done, my response, probably nothing, but it was a RECKLESS play, and those are called. In adult rec league, there is absolutely no reason on earth, to be going 80 in a 30, INTO the boards, all sorts of nasty things can happen, toe pick yourself, get tripped, forget to stop, etc, all leads to injuries, in this case, the guy that he was chasing stopped up short and turned INTO him, if he had turned the other way, hit from behind, into the boards, 2-3 feet away,

Like I said though, it's a fine line, and it's up to the players to control themselves.
Thanks for replying ref! It's good to see the other side of things. I know I'm only telling our side, but I know our team and our guys and they just don't play like that unless bad things are happening. Our first fight was by a guy who said he was constantly getting elbowed and cross checked, maybe 5 or 6 times before he did anything.

It looks like one of our players is getting 30 days for "intent to injure." It was a sad sad game.

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11-21-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ccarrigan View Post
Thanks for replying ref! It's good to see the other side of things. I know I'm only telling our side, but I know our team and our guys and they just don't play like that unless bad things are happening. Our first fight was by a guy who said he was constantly getting elbowed and cross checked, maybe 5 or 6 times before he did anything.

It looks like one of our players is getting 30 days for "intent to injure." It was a sad sad game.
Sounds like it, where was this at?

EDIT: 30 days for intent to injure, somewhere in the States I am guessing.

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11-21-2013, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CABearshockey View Post
Sounds like it, where was this at?

EDIT: 30 days for intent to injure, somewhere in the States I am guessing.
Columbus Ohio. I looked up the CAHL rules and if the ref thinks he was trying to injure, it's variable but 30 days is normal.

I did look at the team we played versus our team, and we have 1/4 of the penalties per game. Their standard game has 10 penalties, ours has 2-3.

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11-21-2013, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ccarrigan View Post
Columbus Ohio. I looked up the CAHL rules and if the ref thinks he was trying to injure, it's variable but 30 days is normal.

I did look at the team we played versus our team, and we have 1/4 of the penalties per game. Their standard game has 10 penalties, ours has 2-3.
Intent to Injure is an automatic match penalty, carries 30 days, thats a USA hockey rule, unless they've changed it, it's been almost 10 years since Ive done hockey in the States.

Columbus, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a large pool to choose from, good luck with that lol, the only I would suggest is that you tell your team that they are responsible for their own reactions, REGARDLESS what the other team says or does, and stop going 80 in a 30, it's not worth it....

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11-21-2013, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CABearshockey View Post
It's a double edged sword in my opinion,

From what you are describing, it's very possible, that if more was called, that would have curtailed it, on the other spectrum, it's possible that it wouldn't.

I've seen it fall both ways.

As far as "controlling" the game, to me, that is ALWAYS up to the players, the players decide if they want to hook, slash, whack, etc, is it up to the official to call that, YES, absolutely.

Do you want them to call every penalty, no, of course not, so there is a fine line there.

I had a play last night, where I called a penalty, but absolutely saw the team's point of view, the guy was following a guy full speed, angled into the boards, the guy pulled up quickly and the guy nailed him, completely accidental, and I called it, his reasoning was, how could he know, what else could he have done, my response, probably nothing, but it was a RECKLESS play, and those are called. In adult rec league, there is absolutely no reason on earth, to be going 80 in a 30, INTO the boards, all sorts of nasty things can happen, toe pick yourself, get tripped, forget to stop, etc, all leads to injuries, in this case, the guy that he was chasing stopped up short and turned INTO him, if he had turned the other way, hit from behind, into the boards, 2-3 feet away,

Like I said though, it's a fine line, and it's up to the players to control themselves.
Ive done something similar as the puck carrier. Im going down the boards one way and i suddenly stop to reverse direction and their guy slams into me and he gets knocked into the boards. No call on me. Its accidental but how much responsibilty do i have as the puck carrier.

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11-21-2013, 02:29 PM
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Refs are huge in controlling the game in terms of unwanted roughness. You can't let things go that frustrate players and then be surprised when something boils over.

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11-21-2013, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
Refs are huge in controlling the game in terms of unwanted roughness. You can't let things go that frustrate players and then be surprised when something boils over.
That's what we were sort of thinking. And we asked the refs to just call everything if they were only going to call the big stuff. I'd rather have twenty minors than five majors and a huge injury.

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11-21-2013, 03:50 PM
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It's a weird situation. I know what games I need to let players know that I'm not letting the little ******** go, that extra hook when the guy is past you, the hold for a couple seconds too long against the boards.

But, here's where things get tricky. Sometimes you nip problems in the bud by reffing this way. Sometimes you cause frustration and it leads to things getting to a point that you can't even hand out enough penalties.

It's really a situation where you have to figure things out on the fly. Sometimes a game really calms down after a fight. If it doesn't, which it seems to have not in your case, you need to put a total lock down on the game. If you have to treat adults like children then oh well. A lot of refs are afraid to toss people in some buildings because of fines or suspensions, which I understand, but it really stinks when someone gets injured in a situation that you might have been able to cut off.

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11-21-2013, 03:55 PM
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tarheelhockey
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The 10 minute misconduct is a beautiful thing.

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11-21-2013, 04:53 PM
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It's a weird situation. I know what games I need to let players know that I'm not letting the little ******** go, that extra hook when the guy is past you, the hold for a couple seconds too long against the boards.

But, here's where things get tricky. Sometimes you nip problems in the bud by reffing this way. Sometimes you cause frustration and it leads to things getting to a point that you can't even hand out enough penalties.

It's really a situation where you have to figure things out on the fly. Sometimes a game really calms down after a fight. If it doesn't, which it seems to have not in your case, you need to put a total lock down on the game. If you have to treat adults like children then oh well. A lot of refs are afraid to toss people in some buildings because of fines or suspensions, which I understand, but it really stinks when someone gets injured in a situation that you might have been able to cut off.
I agree. They did cut us off after the kid got hurt, but that's obviously too late. After 3 ejections I wish they would have just called it, we were the obvious better team and yet things got really ugly and ended with a hospital trip. I feel bad for the kid (been there) and for my buddy who's going to be out a ton of games because they're throwing the book at him.

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11-21-2013, 04:54 PM
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The 10 minute misconduct is a beautiful thing.
We had 3 of those, plus 3 ejections. There almost wasn't enough room in the penalty boxes.

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11-22-2013, 06:01 AM
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Ive done something similar as the puck carrier. Im going down the boards one way and i suddenly stop to reverse direction and their guy slams into me and he gets knocked into the boards. No call on me. Its accidental but how much responsibilty do i have as the puck carrier.
As a puck carrier, rules wise, none.

Common sense wise, you have the responsibility not to put yourself in a position TO get slammed,

Again, it's a fine line and almost every situation is different, but if it's a straight line not near the boards, then I probably don't make that call, but perpendicular to the boards where there is a higher chance of injury, I make that call to let them know, that they can't be reckless, if you are going to follow a guy going 80 in a 30, just because he pulls up and you aren't either A. ready, or B. skilled enough to avoid him, doesn't mean you get to just slam him.

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11-22-2013, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
Refs are huge in controlling the game in terms of unwanted roughness. You can't let things go that frustrate players and then be surprised when something boils over.
So then, how much responsibility is it on the ADULT players, to control their own actions?

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11-22-2013, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by CABearshockey View Post
So then, how much responsibility is it on the ADULT players, to control their own actions?
Ultimately it's all on the adult as people need to control themselves. However when we're talking about "fights" in the sense of a little scrap during the game and then it's over.. that's a hockey instance. IMO a hockey instance is just a part of hockey and sh.. happens. Hockey instances are very often on the ref because of a lack of control of the game.

I actually watched my brothers game on the weekend (14 yrs old) and sent the league a comment stating how good one of the refs were. He was a younger guy and clearly stopped at least 2 fights from happening simply by calling penalties at the right time while also being consistent with his calls all game. Unfortunately that is few and far between.

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11-22-2013, 07:21 AM
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Ultimately it's all on the adult as people need to control themselves. However when we're talking about "fights" in the sense of a little scrap during the game and then it's over.. that's a hockey instance. IMO a hockey instance is just a part of hockey and sh.. happens. Hockey instances are very often on the ref because of a lack of control of the game.

I actually watched my brothers game on the weekend (14 yrs old) and sent the league a comment stating how good one of the refs were. He was a younger guy and clearly stopped at least 2 fights from happening simply by calling penalties at the right time while also being consistent with his calls all game. Unfortunately that is few and far between.
Depending on the area, I believe you will see a higher instance of quality officiating in minor hockey than in adult beer league hockey,

My statement that the players ultimately need to control themselves, is based PURELY on the ADULT REC LEAGUE model, not youth or minor hockey.

For youth and minor hockey, it's a combination of parents, coaches, and officials, working together to demonstrate what is and what is not acceptable, for instance, player gets slashed, gets upset, appropriate reaction in the heat of the moment, would be to push back, emphasizing push, not punch, inappropriate would be to slash back harder etc,

Or, take a number and hit him hard, cleanly, later on etc.


For adult hockey, scrums happen, and normally it's a push here, push there, and a lot of really really bad, non-sensical chirping.

The OP situation sounded worse than that and when it comes down to it, it's the adult player's responsibility to control their emotions and reactions and not take a two handed baseball swing at the guy's head.

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11-22-2013, 07:33 AM
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The OP stated the opponent was a highly penalized team. Ref should be aware of that and give the captains a talk on what will/won't be tolerated. Should those things occur, a couple of double minors or a 2 and 10 will quiet things down pretty quick.

The worst is when there is a significant age difference between the 2 teams and god forbid, the older players are winning. A powderkeg in the offing.

All things a ref needs to be aware of, not an easy job to do.

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11-22-2013, 07:36 AM
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Well you have to remember the OP is bias as all hell. What I take is he was playing a chippy team and the ref failed to recognize what was happening and just let everything go (which is common for beer league but very wrong). This eventually resulted in several players getting very frustrated and when a chippy play happens again they react.

Beer league is also funny in the sense that players come from all different levels. I've seen how myself playing rep all my life see most contact as relatively nothing where as others playing house league take even the slightest bump as an infraction. The ref just needs to be aware of what is happening in his game and use his power to stop it from escalating rather than just sitting back and either not calling anything or calling a bad game entirely.

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11-22-2013, 10:36 AM
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Well you have to remember the OP is bias as all hell. What I take is he was playing a chippy team and the ref failed to recognize what was happening and just let everything go (which is common for beer league but very wrong). This eventually resulted in several players getting very frustrated and when a chippy play happens again they react.

Beer league is also funny in the sense that players come from all different levels. I've seen how myself playing rep all my life see most contact as relatively nothing where as others playing house league take even the slightest bump as an infraction. The ref just needs to be aware of what is happening in his game and use his power to stop it from escalating rather than just sitting back and either not calling anything or calling a bad game entirely.
I was kind of mad at your first sentence, but you're right, I am. But I do know I've played a lot of games with these guys and they just don't act like that. Two of three haven't had a penalty all season between two teams (twentyish games?).

And I do agree, some of my friends played college and juniors so a little bump is nothing. Others have been at it for just a few years and simply aren't ready / able to take a more physical game.

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11-22-2013, 11:16 AM
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I was kind of mad at your first sentence, but you're right, I am. But I do know I've played a lot of games with these guys and they just don't act like that. Two of three haven't had a penalty all season between two teams (twentyish games?).

And I do agree, some of my friends played college and juniors so a little bump is nothing. Others have been at it for just a few years and simply aren't ready / able to take a more physical game.
It's natural, playing in a game is an entirely different perspective than watching. It can happen with 2 completely mild teams in the right circumstances and it's natural as well. That's why it falls on the ref often to control it

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11-22-2013, 11:57 AM
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This question has two answers.

1. A good ref can visualize what two teams are capable of based on experience with the league/teams. He can also make calls/communicate in a game to captains and benches to try to alleviate potential problems.

2. Regardless of the ref, players/teams decide how they want to play the game.

I haven't had a gong show in two years. I talk to players alot, and I am involved in their experience as much as possible. Also feel like if we know each other, they understand where I am coming from, and I know where they are coming from.

One of my biggest complements came this year.

"I like it when you ref us, I feel safe out there."

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11-22-2013, 12:58 PM
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The problem I see with adults compared to youth hockey is that adults, on top of trying to be macho, they have this complex with anyone near their goalie. Like someone brought up, the level of play they came from plays a part, but guys that have been playing rec their whole life will try and start brawls if someone from the other team just plays until the whistle.

And that's honestly the hardest to control as a ref. You can hand out the 10s and the 2s but you can't just eliminate plays around the net.

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11-23-2013, 11:49 AM
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Yes thats the refs job. But its adult league, they probably wanted to avoid stoppages and get home early. End result is people get hurt.

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11-23-2013, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Superstar Treatment View Post
The problem I see with adults compared to youth hockey is that adults, on top of trying to be macho, they have this complex with anyone near their goalie. Like someone brought up, the level of play they came from plays a part, but guys that have been playing rec their whole life will try and start brawls if someone from the other team just plays until the whistle.

And that's honestly the hardest to control as a ref. You can hand out the 10s and the 2s but you can't just eliminate plays around the net.

If a goalie clearly has a puck covered, whistle or no whistle, I dont take an extra whack. Its adult league and its not the goalies fault refs are lazy.

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